JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[swerve]

Yes. Agreed.
AESA or something even more advance is the future for fighters.

And for just about everything else. Selex is marketing an AESA radar for UAVs. It's called Picosar & weighs about 10kg. Limited performance, in line with its small size, but it shows the way things are going.

 

[crobato]

The thing about AESA is that you can turn the radar into anything.

* It can become its own RWR.

* It can become its own ECM package (beaming its radiation against another radar).

* It can regulate the frequencies much more responsibly and efficiently than magnetrons/klystrons/traveling wave tubes, and do it with digital precision.

* It can create a wider range of frequencies, from very long frequency that can be used to detect stealthier objects, to very high frequency that can be used for surgically precise tracking.

* It can scan both air and surface simultaneously.

* It can operate multiple modes at the same time, for example, scanning and searching the sky for situational awareness while targeting an object for a missile launch.

* It can manage and focus the radar beam into a shape that enables the beam to travel longer than you would with conventional slotted wave guides. And with that, you can also reduce or eliminate side lobes (stray radar beams emanating from the side of the main beam, looks like small petals in a flower).

* It can even be its own datalinks, transmitting datalink data directly from the antenna itself without the need of a seperate antenna.

The original AESA were of course nothing more electronic scanning arrays with solid state emitters, and the radar software is unable to exploit these properties. So in effect, its not much better than a glorified mechanical scanning radar. So a lot of it has to do with the software and computing power behind the array.

 

[iceman_pk]

i heard some where that the range of VIXEN (could'nt rememeber the version) had a very limited range.
well r there any chances of Israeli ELTA 2052 AESA radar bieng fitted in Jf-17 through china as there are talks going in btw Pakistan and israel behind curtains..
musharraf is visiting arab states, indonesia and malaysia for ME problems they might have had a plan or break through might have been achieved with israel..

 

[swerve]

i heard some where that the range of VIXEN (could'nt rememeber the version) had a very limited range.
....

The 500 element version (Vixen 500E) has a fairly short claimed range - but it's given as "more than . . . . ". It looks as if it should be at least as much as mechanically-scanned radars of the same size. A larger antenna would give a longer range, & Selex offer 750 & 1000 element arrays for it.

 

[umair]

Swerve, in relation to what you posted earlier regarding the latest mechanical arrays being upgradable to AESA, that is exactly why the PAF is looking hard at the Grifo S-7 which has been designed from getgo for an easy upgrade to an AESA array.

 

[swerve]

Swerve, in relation to what you posted earlier regarding the latest mechanical arrays being upgradable to AESA, that is exactly why the PAF is looking hard at the Grifo S-7 which has been designed from getgo for an easy upgrade to an AESA array.

Selex said about a year ago that they had a project for another AESA fighter radar, specifically targeted at the replacement/refit/upgrade market, & it was being worked on in Italy, not the UK. I wondered at the time if it was an AESA front end for the Grifo. If so, it would probably make sense for them to build on the work already done in the UK, so they might come up with something like a Vixen antenna, but tailored to the Grifo processor. Does that sound right?

 

[SATAN]

Selex said about a year ago that they had a project for another AESA fighter radar, specifically targeted at the replacement/refit/upgrade market, & it was being worked on in Italy, not the UK. I wondered at the time if it was an AESA front end for the Grifo. If so, it would probably make sense for them to build on the work already done in the UK, so they might come up with something like a Vixen antenna, but tailored to the Grifo processor. Does that sound right?

Last i heard the 2 THUNDERS just delivered to Pakistan have a Chinese radar...and there is a Chinese version of the AESA radar being developed for the J10 and the JF-17 due to be completed by 2008.

 

[Big-E]

Last i heard the 2 THUNDERS just delivered to Pakistan have a Chinese radar...and there is a Chinese version of the AESA radar being developed for the J10 and the JF-17 due to be completed by 2008.

Chinese AESA... JF-17 AESA, why would they put that in such a low quality air frame?

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Chinese AESA... JF-17 AESA, why would they put that in such a low quality air frame?

Well they can slap together a cheap one with only couple hundred T/R modules. Last I heard the cost to produce JF-17 was $8 million per bang. You get what you pay for.

 

[DragonKing786]

Chinese AESA... JF-17 AESA, why would they put that in such a low quality air frame?

?? Low quality ??

You should check out the parade video, the plane had amazing manurvability. As for AESA JF-17 will also be going through an upgrade once 250 are inducted into PAF (since they jumped the number from the previous 150) after 5 years, and AESA will might just be 1 of many upgrades, in modern war fare ASEA and situational awareness is the way to go.

Well they slap together a cheap one with only couple hundred T/R modules. Last I heard the cost to produce JF-17 was $8 million per bang. You get what you pay for.

Who ever said it costs $ 8 Million, the plane is going to cost around
$ 20-25 million per plane (the western equiped copy). It's a 4th gen plane (even ACM said it during the thunder briefing, and said that the MiG-29's currently in Indian Air Force aren't a threat, and more high-tech planes are being acquired to take on MKI and MRCA, probably a jump on J10s which will also be equiped with western tech, since PAF said it' didn't meet their specification).

 

[Pathfinder-X]

?? Low quality ??

You should check out the parade video, the plane had amazing manurvability. As for AESA JF-17 will also be going through an upgrade once 250 are inducted into PAF (since they jumped the number from the previous 150) after 5 years, and AESA will might just be 1 of many upgrades, in modern war fare ASEA and situational awareness is the way to go.



Who ever said it costs $ 8 Million, the plane is going to cost around
$ 20-25 million per plane (the western equiped copy). It's a 4th gen plane (even ACM said it during the thunder briefing, and said that the MiG-29's currently in Indian Air Force aren't a threat, and more high-tech planes are being acquired to take on MKI and MRCA, probably a jump on J10s which will also be equiped with western tech, since PAF said it' didn't meet their specification).

Eight million is how much it cost China to produce them, from what the people on their forum say. It's a cost effective solution, not a magical cure.

 

[DragonKing786]

Eight million is how much it cost China to produce them, from what the people on their forum say.

I have yet to see any proof from them, as far I know they can be making out numbers, without any real evidence. But I know from PakDef that the plane costs $ 20 Million, will just wait for Phasmim to confirm it.

 

[Big-E]

I have yet to see any proof from them, as far I know they can be making out numbers, without any real evidence. But I know from PakDef that the plane costs $ 20 Million, will just wait for Phasmim to confirm it.

Sounds like Pakistan is getting ripped off. It doesn't make tactical sense to equip your Mig-21 replacements with AESA. The US hasn't gone out of it's way to equip it's fleet of F-16s with AESA and for good reason. It's too expensive for a quality radar. I have been keeping tabs on PLAAFs quest for Russian AESA and can infer that their own program must not be going well if they are.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

I have yet to see any proof from them, as far I know they can be making out numbers, without any real evidence. But I know from PakDef that the plane costs $ 20 Million, will just wait for Phasmim to confirm it.

It's widely accepted fact that FC-1 cost $8 to 10 mil a piece for China. I think PLAAF can probably purchased a J-10 with 20 mil price tag.

Care to confirm tuphang?

Sounds like Pakistan is getting ripped off. It doesn't make tactical sense to equip your Mig-21 replacements with AESA. The US hasn't gone out of it's way to equip it's fleet of F-16s with AESA and for good reason. It's too expensive for a quality radar. I have been keeping tabs on PLAAFs quest for Russian AESA and can infer that their own program must not be going well if they are.

The price might get lower once they stop using the Russian engine. I'm under the impression Pakistan decided to use the package China provided for their JF-17, so China might be laughing all the way to the bank there. I doubt they could fit a capable AESA with that small nose.

 

[Big-E]

The price might get lower once they stop using the Russian engine. I'm under the impression Pakistan decided to use the package China provided for their JF-17, so China might be laughing all the way to the bank there. I doubt they could fit a capable AESA with that small nose.

I agree on both counts, that nose is too small especially at their level of tech. They would need something at least the size of the Flanker and from all reports that is what they are hunting AESA for. It makes tactical and financial sense to put it in that airframe and not the FC-1.

 

[SABRE]

I have yet to see any proof from them, as far I know they can be making out numbers, without any real evidence. But I know from PakDef that the plane costs $ 20 Million, will just wait for Phasmim to confirm it.

Just from the vague discussion I had with some one who knws a little bit ... the cost is more or less near to $8-9 million (10 million at the most)but the sales value is set at $20Million. The reason is the avionics & weapons system. PAF's preferance for western gadgets increases the cost (but I dont think it should be $20 Million). $20Million you hear is sales prince, which I also highly doubt it is, should be lower. I think the price of F-16 was 18 Million (from the details of PAF F-16 deal, but I am not too sure of its price). Why would you wana buy JF-17, which is said to be marginally inferior to F-16C/D, instead of buying marginally superior F-16C/D itself, which is coming few million dollars cheaper. Even if F-16 is more expensive, most countries would prefer to put some more money & buy more reliable, credible & proven platform.

As for AESA, dont jump to conclusions from what you read on forums. You have to officially hear it from either CAC or PAC.

 

[aaaditya]

I agree on both counts, that nose is too small especially at their level of tech. They would need something at least the size of the Flanker and from all reports that is what they are hunting AESA for. It makes tactical and financial sense to put it in that airframe and not the FC-1.

what about vixen 500e ,it seems small and cheap enough ,considering that it is being offered for the south korean t50 golden eagle trainer/combat aircraft.

 

[tphuang]

?? Low quality ??

You should check out the parade video, the plane had amazing manurvability. As for AESA JF-17 will also be going through an upgrade once 250 are inducted into PAF (since they jumped the number from the previous 150) after 5 years, and AESA will might just be 1 of many upgrades, in modern war fare ASEA and situational awareness is the way to go.

Who ever said it costs $ 8 Million, the plane is going to cost around
$ 20-25 million per plane (the western equiped copy). It's a 4th gen plane (even ACM said it during the thunder briefing, and said that the MiG-29's currently in Indian Air Force aren't a threat, and more high-tech planes are being acquired to take on MKI and MRCA, probably a jump on J10s which will also be equiped with western tech, since PAF said it' didn't meet their specification).

Western equipped copy? everything on that plane is Chinese. There is no indication that there is enough of a gap between what Chinese are willing to offer vs what Western countries are willing to offer for Pakistan to jump ship. I think 8 million is for a barebone system, without a lot of avionics and using WS-13. But even that, would be assuming some level of mass production. Remember, they even managed to sell F-7s for 17 million each to Nigeria after the training, support and missiles cost were added.

And why would China let you put western tech on J-10? They got enough domestic orders. Export version of a plane is exactly that. PAF has to give China their requirements and China can then determine based on their current radar technology, cost and what they are willing to export to determine what kind of radar you do get.

I have been keeping tabs on PLAAFs quest for Russian AESA and can infer that their own program must not be going well if they are.

If you take a look at the number of Chinese units fielding AESA radars, it's far more than what the Russians have. And frankly, the Russians haven't shown the capability to mass produce GaA chip needed for hundreds of fighters. Bottom line is that plaaf can't wait for the Russians.

 

[BilalK]

News about equipping AESA on JF-17 has been around on PakDef forums for a while. It is not official and the PAF has yet to decide on the JF-17's main radar. However do remember that to the PAF the JF-17 is a few notches higher on the scale than say the F-16 was to the USAF. Not to mention the fact that the JF-17s would be in widespread service with PAF for at least 20 years - against opponents equipped with very advanced avionics, perhaps AESA radars, etc.

If you look at modern day AESA developments, such as the Vixen-500E designed for the KAI T-50 - as well as the Vixen-750 under development for F-16 - it would not be far fetched for someone to develop an AESA in between. As for PAF putting AESA on JF-17, it is an expensive proposition now, but eventually AESA will be widespread and cheap enough for it.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

AESA with less than a thousand T/R modules might is the greatest market rip off there is. Just becaused it's "AESA", doesn't mean you will get substantial improvement in performance over conventional array.

Bottom line, AESA is overhyped.