Japan Air Self-Defence Force

[Todjaeger]

The proposed hybrid fighter that LM are suggesting could be an option for not just Japan but many other nations Israel for one. Maybe an option for the USAF themselves.

Honestly my take on this is a Shakespearean quote, "Much ado about nothing..."

Given the amount of time that it currently takes to get a bleeding edge fighter into service, this proposed hybrid fighter should be starting to get fielded circa ~2040.

IIRC the F-35 development timeline correctly, the programme which led to the JSF programme started in 1993 and it was about seven years before the first flight of the X-32 and X-35 demonstrators. The amount of time and resources to design a 5th gen fighter/attack aircraft is considerable given their complexity and need to integrate complex subsystems.

Realistically at this point I think it would be better for any new programme to be looking to develop a 6th gen aircraft, since the current developmental cycle is about 20 years.

 

[John Fedup]

Yes, 6th Gen is the future and with a 20 year development why duplicate what already exists, albeit in too small numbers. It has already been decided that Raptor 2.0 isn’t economically viable.

 

[the concerned]

Then you would end up with the same problem a fighter so advanced the US won't export it.

 

[hauritz]

Given that export of the F-22 has been banned I wonder how Lockheed will get around selling the technology behind the F-22?

It's a silly ban anyway.

The US government should just sell the F-22 to the Japanese or any other trusted ally who wants to buy it. As technology goes it is probably getting pretty long in the tooth anyway. The focus should now be on developing 6th generation fighters.

 

[John Fedup]

Agree the ban was poor policy and yes, the new LM design would need approval if it in fact uses F-22 technology. Sure would be interesting to know if this technology is still state of the art or is there something better coming along for the B-21 and Gen 6 fighter. Guessing yes.

 

[Todjaeger]

Then you would end up with the same problem a fighter so advanced the US won't export it.

Possibly. The other alternative would be to introduce a 'new' fighter about a decade before that generation gets retired. That would be like the RAF having it's Eurofighter Typhoons start entering frontline service in 2016 instead of 2006 like it did. The type might provide useful service for about ten years and then after that it might no longer be suitable for frontline service. And this is also assuming that nothing major goes wrong in the aircraft development and testing which causes further delays.

Look at the whole history of the various programmes which resulted in the F-22 Raptor. The Advanced Tactical Fighter RFI was issued in 1981 but it was not until almost 2006 that the F-22 actually entered service with the USAF, nearly 25 years after the RFI.

If these sorts of delays were to occur with the F-22/F-35 hybrid, and that the RFI was issued today, then the final design would not be entering service until late 2042 or early 2043. One also needs to remember that the F-35 is expected to serve until the 2040 to 2050 time frame, and then be replaced by something else.

Introducing a brand new aircraft which is functionally comparable to the F-22 and F-35 just seven (or even ten or twelve) years before the F-35 replacement enters service seems like a waste of resources for development and construction.

 

[John Fedup]

This Flight Global article provides some additional information about Japan's future jet options. Their F-2 program is a good example of why a major partner would make sense in order to share the cost burden. Partner development of fighters will have problems too, e.g. Typhoon. Perhaps two equal partners would make work sharing easier.

Tokyo eyes multiple routes for new fighter jet

 

[John Fedup]

More news about French-German collaboration on a new fighter. Perhaps Brexit will result in the UK further exploring collaboration with Japan.

Dassault Aviation and Airbus Join Forces on Future Combat Air System

 

[John Fedup]

This is another article about Japan’s concerns on fighters. Given China’s military aviation advances this is understandable. As the article states, Japan has always been committed to having a fleet capable of air superiority starting with licensed built F-4s up to F-15s. I don’t think this is solely a Japanese problem. It is a US problem too. With the Raptor fleet down to 185 jets after two recent mishaps and China’s ceaseless efforts to move forward, the situation will continue to get worse.

As for the F-35 comments in the article, the more knowledgeable can weigh in.

Why the F-35 Isn’t Good Enough for Japan

 

[40 deg south]

Japan eyes Franco-German maritime patrol aircraft requirement despite export setbacks

Japan is still looking for that elusive first customer for the Kawasaki P-1.

 

[Todjaeger]

This is another article about Japan’s concerns on fighters. Given China’s military aviation advances this is understandable. As the article states, Japan has always been committed to having a fleet capable of air superiority starting with licensed built F-4s up to F-15s. I don’t think this is solely a Japanese problem. It is a US problem too. With the Raptor fleet down to 185 jets after two recent mishaps and China’s ceaseless efforts to move forward, the situation will continue to get worse.

As for the F-35 comments in the article, the more knowledgeable can weigh in.

Why the F-35 Isn’t Good Enough for Japan

Having just read through the article quickly, I found it 'interesting' is probably the nicest way to put it.

A number of the assertions I found very questionable (such as that the PRC's fighters now surpass Japan's fighters in quality) to the point that the article seems like a hatchet job. It also managed to ignore the impact of changes to how a modern battlespace is managed, and therefore how aerial combat gets conducted. Among other areas I have issues with in the article is the author's focus on the F-35 kinematic performance and the fact that it was not designed as a dogfighter

The following sentence I find very suspect;

The F-35 has less than half the range of the larger F-22 and lacks the Raptor’s advanced long ranged air-to-air missiles, which for an archipelago nation separated from its potential adversaries by vast seas are major shortcomings.

AFAIK the air to air missiles which are available for use aboard the F-22 are also to be integrated onto the F-35, if that has not already been done. Which makes it sound like the author is making things up.

In short IMO the article's author either is ignorant about some of what he was commenting on, or he has an agenda and using the article as a means of advancing it.

 

[SpazSinbad]

Agree. It seems the author has an agenda to advance: the new Japanese fighter; which is all well and good but he does not need to make stuff up such as noted above. This is my take:

"...While the F-35 retains some radar evading capabilities, its radar cross section is over ten times greater than that of the F-22 making it far less survivable — leading some analysts to term it a “pseudo stealthy” fighter. The F-35 has less than half the range of the larger F-22 and lacks the Raptor’s advanced long ranged air-to-air missiles..."

Using old quotes by now retired USAF Generals, who at the time wanted to keep or restart the F-22 program, to denigrate the F-35 is just bollocks. Sure in comparison the F-22 beats the F-35 as an air to air machine; however things are not going that way today. In some aspects USAF generals have been quoted to say that the F-35 has better frontal stealth and much better avionics and much better situational awareness. I used to think 'the Diplomat' had credibility but now it is just a DiploPLOD. Just watch the Paris Air Show F-35 to see it ain't no slouch (at low altitude anyway) there are any number of quotes from serving pilots having flown the F-35 to support how astonished they are at the POWER of it and all the other bits.

So to those who cannot get aholt of the F-22 - sucks to be you but the F-35 - if you can geddit - is very good. And if youse need something better then be my guest - make it so but no need to bullquip about the F-35 to justify the stance.

 

[MrConservative]

Indeed as the article is from the Diplomat. I would not take it too seriously.

Most articles are usually cut and paste content pieces written by postgrad students for cash.

 

[John Fedup]

Sensor fusion for superior situation awareness, stealth, and network capability has redefined the aerial battle space. Clearly this is the new doctrine and the F-35 is at the heart of this. Kinematic performance has taken a backseat. For now, this is the case as the stealth characteristics of the J-20 and J-31 are questionable along with engine performance and durability. What are the chances that a new Chinese jet will emerge with enhanced stealth and sensors along with kinematic performance similar to the F-22 well before a Gen 6 introduction? Given China's increasing cyber capabilities to obtain classified information and the large financial resources it has, I think this is more likely than not unless dogfighting jets with awesome stealth and kinematic performance like the F-22 are obsolete.

If this is the case then a jet with even more stealth along with better range and weapons load together with F-35 networking and sensor fusion should be the future.....sounds like a B-21. The USN will need bigger CVNs.

 

[Todjaeger]

Sensor fusion for superior situation awareness, stealth, and network capability has redefined the aerial battle space. Clearly this is the new doctrine and the F-35 is at the heart of this. Kinematic performance has taken a backseat. For now, this is the case as the stealth characteristics of the J-20 and J-31 are questionable along with engine performance and durability. What are the chances that a new Chinese jet will emerge with enhanced stealth and sensors along with kinematic performance similar to the F-22 well before a Gen 6 introduction? Given China's increasing cyber capabilities to obtain classified information and the large financial resources it has, I think this is more likely than not unless dogfighting jets with awesome stealth and kinematic performance like the F-22 are obsolete.

If this is the case then a jet with even more stealth along with better range and weapons load together with F-35 networking and sensor fusion should be the future.....sounds like a B-21. The USN will need bigger CVNs.

You also have to keep in mind what the developmental cycle is for projects like the F-22 and F-35, both programmes took over 20 years between their initiation and entry into service. And this with a fully developed aerospace industry with decades of experience designing, building and manufacturing combat aircraft and all their systems and subsystems. Yes, other nations that lack such an all-aspect aerospace industry could run a crash development programme and inject massive funding to gain some degree of parity, but to achieve both the industrial and institutional knowledge while also putting out a design to compete with either the F-22 or F-35 is IMO at least quite unlikely.

 

[John Fedup]

For now, I agree. The sheer numbers of engineers and scientists that China has now and continues to produce will give China the ability to at least try to reach parity within a generation, maybe faster. These scientists and engineers are paid much less than their Western counterparts so along with China’s big cash hoard and dictatorial government that can focus on military programs of their choosing, it is not a stretch that we could be surprised. I would think Russia has to be thinking about this as well.

 

[swerve]

.... Japan has always been committed to having a fleet capable of air superiority starting with licensed built F-4s up to F-15s. ...

Earlier, earlier . .. Licence assembled F-86F, licence built F-104J . . .

 

[John Fedup]

Earlier, earlier . .. Licence assembled F-86F, licence built F-104J . . .

Indeed, although the F-104 was not a happy experience for some.

 

[John Fedup]

Interesting article about the forthcoming book by the former USAF commander with regards to the F-22 cancellation. If true, it really shows how Gates got a bad case of tunnel vision wrt Afghanistan and Iraq versus future peer to peer challenges.

I posted this article here because the B-21 may represent a different solution to air superiority. Instead of speed and maneuverability it will have long range and enhanced stealth capabilities combined with the ability to network with other assets. Also long range air to air missiles might be offered giving it a self defence option. Perhaps B-21 is the fighter-bomber re-invented or the metamorphosis of the FB-22

Retired General Says F-22 Production Was Killed So That A New Bomber Could Live

 

[Todjaeger]

Interesting article about the forthcoming book by the former USAF commander with regards to the F-22 cancellation. If true, it really shows how Gates got a bad case of tunnel vision wrt Afghanistan and Iraq versus future peer to peer challenges.

I posted this article here because the B-21 may represent a different solution to air superiority. Instead of speed and maneuverability it will have long range and enhanced stealth capabilities combined with the ability to network with other assets. Also long range air to air missiles might be offered giving it a self defence option. Perhaps B-21 is the fighter-bomber re-invented or the metamorphosis of the FB-22

Retired General Says F-22 Production Was Killed So That A New Bomber Could Live

One has to also look at what was going on at the time in terms of the US military, domestic politics, and the economy. On the political from the POTUS threatened to veto spending to purchase additional F-22's. This was as the US was digging itself out of the Great Recession, and attempting to extricate itself from expensive military entanglements in Iraq and Afghanistan. Further, the F-22 was never designed to be a multi-role fighter/attack aircraft like the F-35 so the F-22 was/is seen as somewhat less useful and capable for any role other than air combat. Tying in with that is that the avionics package in the F-22 is outdated when compared with the F-35, and due to the systems architecture used (ADA-based instead of C++) it is much more difficult to apply developments and lessons learned from the F-35 systems to the F-22.

Using hindsight, at this point I think perhaps the first mistake was selecting the YF-22 prototype as the 'winner' in place of the YF-23. As I understand it, the performance metric that the YF-22 exceeded the YF-23 in was maneuverability. OTOH the YF-23 exceeded the YF-22 in VLO and speed. With changes to how air combat is now being done, the kinematic performance of an aircraft is less important then maintaining the advantage in SA. Therefore aircraft which either have better sensors, sensor fusion, and how that data is packaged and presented to the pilot or aircraft have an advantage, as due aircraft with comprehensive LO or VLO which will negatively impact the effectiveness of hostile systems in establishing and maintaining SA.

Or to put it another way, high speeds and/or super maneuverability mean SFA when the first indication a pilot has of the presence of hostile aircraft is the glint of reflected sunlight off the nose of an inbound air to air missile, just before it detonates.