Israeli Special Forces

[MilSpex]

I did a search on the subject but couldn`t find much.

CNN is reporting that IDF Special Forces have crossed into Southern Lebanon to conduct search and destroy style missions(?)

How do Israeli Special Forces operate? Are they based on the American model? eg 12 man A-teams? How would they conduct a raid on a Hezbollah position? would they visually id and `paint` the target with laser for air assets or take a more hands on approach? Wouldn`t IDF Special Forces pretty much perpetually be in Southern Lebanon anyway?

 

[merocaine]

Wouldn`t IDF Special Forces pretty much perpetually be in Southern Lebanon anyway?

IF they have a death wish dude, south Leb is heavly populated with a hostile Hezbullah lovin citizenry. Not much room to crawl around with weeds on your head.

 

[Tzalaf]

Based on my own experiences in the IDF, the various units will be doing work in Sth Lebanon on a constant basis. Each unit works in its own way. In other words, what works for the Americans wouldn't work for the Israeli's. In fact, foriegn units have been coming to Israel for some time now to learn to fight using the required tactics they aren't accustomed to. The US have been training in Israel, as they did before the Gulf War, for many years now.

The Sth Lebanese militias wouldn't even know when we were around the corner. Just because they were not always attacked does not mean that they weren;t being watched. As a sniper i can assure you they were and still are.

 

[TrangleC]

And that must be why the Israelis weren't able to prevent the kidnapping of their soldiers, nor the rocket attacks and have to invade the Lebanon with massive forces now and bomb the capital that is mostly populated by sunit moslems who have little support for the shiit Hezzbolla who causes the thing.

Sorry, but such "special forces are everywhere"- and "we do our job in secret and you don't hear of us because we are successful"-fairitales are mostly nonsense.

Take the killing of Al Zarquawi or however this top terrorist in Iraq was named.
The whole country is controlled by the US Army. The guy is sitting just a few miles from the next base in some suburb.
They know where he is.
And what do they do? Do they send special forces or at least the normal forces to go and get him?
No. All they could come up with was droping another bomb into another civilian living area.
They could have captured and ridiculated him, but this way they created another symbol and martyr (or however this is spelled).
That was such a display of low selfesteem and lack of controll that only an american officer could appeare to be proud of this great achievement in the following press conference.

Where are those supersoldiers when you once need them?
When you can't even catch such a guy sitting there a few miles from the next army base, what use are they then?

It is the same with the israelis and their suspect killings. Why is that always done by helicopters and rockets, everytime killing innocent bystanders, when they got such great snipers as they claim?

The news report of so many stupid mistakes and so much clumsiness of both this armies in dealing with insurgents that just are hard to explain when they brag so much about those great special forces at the same time.

 

[Tzalaf]

It is obvious that you have never served in the military. Unlike the movies you seem to base your views on(hint: Rambo was just make-believe and not a documentary), being in the special forces does not make you into a superman. It is true though that certain units are not seen and not heard-if they were then they failed their mission. Did you know a ceratin Israeli unit spent months in Iraq before the Gulf War began?? Do you have any idea what the various units are assigned to do? As a sniper in the IDF, I spent more nights under piles of crap collecting data than I spent in my tent. I am nothing compared to these guys. The fact is that you cannot keep an eye out over an entire country/continent no matter what technology you have available( and this is coming from my knowledge as an Aerospace Engineer working in the field). For example, the Merkava-4 tank is perhaps the most armoured tank in existence, yet has been destroyed with relatively simple munitions.

[Admin Edit: Please watch your language. Rules: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php any future profanity in posts/replies will result in entire reply/post deleted. ]

 

[TrangleC]

I'd rather not extend this discussion on the political and moral issues. That is no use and only leads to quarrel.

And i'm not saying that special forces are supermen. Certainly not. Indeed i didn't join the military, but somewhat i come from a family with a lot of military history. The father of my father and his brothers were soldiers in Nazi Germany, the parents of my mother were fighting on the other side as partisan fighters in the jugoslavian resistance and later were both paratroopers in the regular jugoslavian army. (Weird to imagine your own grandmother being a sniper and later a paratrooper, i can tell you that.)
My father was kind of a special forces soldier too. In the cold war there were this socalled Feldjäger (field hunters) units in the german army, trained to operate in small groups and do autonomous (and supportless) hit and run attacks on advancing red army forces in case of a sovjet invasion.
His younger brother was a paratrooper and his older brother was first in the navy infantry and later joined the french foreign legion and fought socalled insurgents (i'd rather call them freedom fighters) in the algerian liberation war.
I somehow grew up with things like that and a lot of stories about it, although never pursuit such a career myself.

So although not from first hand, my knowlege about such things doesn't only come from stupid action movies.

All i want to say in the end is that many things are in the news that could have been prevented if those so much praised special forces would really do what their fans claim thei're doing.
You know what i mean?

 

[Tzalaf]

True- in theory, if these units were used then it would be possible to reduce the number of civilian deaths. However, in reality, it would be a suicide mission to send anyone in to a built up area at this point in time. I am sure that there were units sent in to laser-designate various targets and collect information however I believe that would be the extent of it.
The problem here lies in the fact that the terrorist groups are building bases and offices in, under and amongst civilian structures. This is a proven fact.

[Admin Edit: Life is precious everywhere, please do not generalize and post disrespectful comments regarding other countries. You sure will not like when other people say the same about yours so keep idea of mutual respect in mind!]

Having lived and served in Israel for several years, I can tell that life is precious there. If a civilian is killed due to a reaction by the IDF, it was because there was no choice or a malfunction of the technology used.

Getting back to the original point, when an Apache is capable of firing a missile through the windom of an office block from a range of 50km, why send in the soldiers? There is no glory in death.

BTW you would be suprised who fought in the role of a sniper during the second world war.....look no further than the miniscule Dr. Ruth from the USA (Sex doctor). She fought during the Israel War of Independance.

 

[Manfred]

Hold the phone.... Dr. Ruth was a sniper?!?
I reckon she must have nailed a few, she's not the type to take prisoners, is she?:flame

What is happening in Isreal now is a product of thier own unwillingness to committ troops and accept casualties. If they had boots on the ground from Beufort Castle to Beiruit, it would all be over in 48 hours. Instead, they (like US) rely far too much on fancy toys to do thier killing for them. This does not make much of an impression on the vindictive, brutal, midieval psycopaths they are fighting.

Mod Editath: Avoid using the term psychopath. Unless every single person who belongs to Hezbollah is administered the PCL-R and scored 26 or above, they cannot be classified as psychopathic. It's unethical and ignorant to label anyone without proper diagnose from a qualified psychologist.

Special Forces DO look like a paper tiger these days, they are rarely used and never permitted to finish the job. Every city in every muslim nation should be crawling with American Snipers killing anyone even rumored to support terrorists, THAT would be my idea of a war on terror!

No, not fighting terror with terror. Fight terror with absolute horror. The sooner every Imam in the world has a nervous breakdown, the sooner the rest of us can get on with our lives.

Please read the forum rules before you post similar comments like above. Consider this your first warning.

 

[Waylander]

These ideas remind me of the history of my own country...
You think killing everybody who might be a terrorist is ok?
What would you think if a special force of another country would kill some of your friends just because the government of this countrys thinks that they could become a terrorist?
Some people who live should die.
Many people who died should live.
Can you give back life?
So be carefull before you call for the death of somebody!

Back to topic.
Lebanon should be too small and there are too much people living in there.
There are no hiding places for them for a longer period.

 

[Tzalaf]

I agree Waylander:

Why should even more innocent people die? I wish that Israel would go in and complete the job once and for all(although there is no such thing) but should innocent people pay?? NO. Will innocent people pay? Sure. However, this must be minimized to the full extent. Do the job, but no more, if you get my point.

When a soldier gets a weopon he begins to feel godlike. This occurs in every country. People become inaninimate targets. Israel however, reminds its soldiers that they are people and not just 'targets'. You would be suprised how much time and effort during training goes to enforce this point. They were always very strict in enforcing this rule. They do not look at the 'enemies' as 'infidels', rather as dangerous targets which must be removed from service. For this I am proud.

 

[Manfred]

And the band played on...

To this particular enemy, gentlemanly conduct is an exploitable weakness, and so they are not entitled to any of the benifits of "civilized warfare" (a somewhat peculiar concept in itself, in my opinion).

TrangleC; sounds like you have a fascinating family history, I would love to hear more about it. However, the history of your country seems to be boxing you into a corner. If you make a blanket call that every single policy that regime endorsed must be reversed, then you also turn your back on things like good roads, manly virtues, deficit spending and decisive action against a ruthless foe.

Even if you take it in the most litteral and bruttal way, my endorsement to snipe anyone rumored to support the terrorists is more reasoned than the conduct of the enemy, which is to kill anyone in sight!

 

[Mr Waka]

Hey tzalaf while you were a sniper what was make was your rifle etc.....
As well as optics?
were alone or did you have a spotter with you?

also you dont have to answer this if you dont want to and i'm sure many have asked you before " Did you ever shoot" someone? "


Back to what you were saying bout watching "special forces" what was it that you saw that was so impressive?

Innocent people's lives should by no means be taken...... But sadly it is a reality of conflict

i read from a special forces book

"A Salamander Book"

Illustrated Directory of special forces

Author David Miller

that israeli forces have always been active in iraq and neighbouring countries especially the group called "Shayetet 13" as well as recon by unit 269 ( Sayeret Mat'kal) who ended up in alittle trouble with local farmers with dragunov's Total 2 casualty's.......................

 

[Waylander]

@Manfred
It is always easy to say "kill those bastards" if you sit in front of the TV with two oceans between you and the hostile world.
Do you really think by killing enough "might be terrorists" the people in those poor countrys think "ok, we lost, lets try to be just farmers"?
You americans are very proud of your constitution. You would be horrified if some of your people would be arrested or killed without a fair court.
I understand that this is not always possible in the war against terror, but pure terror just leads to the birth of more terror.
And letting many innocent people die as collateral damage would only lead to more people joining terror groups.

My example remains. Lets just think about the possibility that another country decides that your brother could be a terrorist and a sniper kills him on the open street or a bomb kills him together with many members of his familiy.
What would you do? Say "Ok, I understand this, they had to do it" or "Those bastards, I want to see their blood"?

Ok, about special forces.
I'm just searching for the article but as long as I remember a special force on recon mission came under fire and mortar attack. Some of them wounded/dead. Helicopter support was not available/possible and so two Merkava Mrk.IV were sent to help them. They reached the place but one of them run onto an AT-mine and throw a track. In the end the SF were evacuated but two or three IDF soldiers are dead and some are wounded.

Really difficult territory for SFs.

 

[TrangleC]

TrangleC; sounds like you have a fascinating family history, I would love to hear more about it.

In Europe it would be hard to try to find a family that wasn't affected by WW2, so my family history is rather average.
Still the most interesting aspects of it have not much to do with the war, like for example my grandfather working in Africa and Asia long times as an engineer during the 50ies and 60ies, when this still was an adventurous thing to do.
I remembered all the stories about him and the many exotic souveneers that my grandparent's house was stuffed with when i worked in China for a year myself.
But that is getting way too off-topic.

However, the history of your country seems to be boxing you into a corner. If you make a blanket call that every single policy that regime endorsed must be reversed, then you also turn your back on things like good roads, manly virtues, deficit spending and decisive action against a ruthless foe.

I really am not comfortable with moral discussions because in my experience they never lead anywhere, but on that matter i agree with Waylander's last posting.

I think that people in the USA and in Israel just don't try to see matters through the eyes of others enough.
What would you do if you were in the shoes of one of those young arabs or palestinians?

Maybe americans should feel for themselves what real war right in front of your door means. Then they might be less willing to start or engage in wars.

 

[renjer]

I would like to know which units are considered SF in the Israeli Army. Paratroopers? Golanis? Gitanis? Thanks.

 

[old faithful]

Mod edit: Sorry mate, but the rules apply to all. Disrespect other posters and your posts will be treated the same as their rubbish is. Cheers. AD.

 

[umair]

@Manfred
It is always easy to say "kill those bastards" if you sit in front of the TV with two oceans between you and the hostile world.
Do you really think by killing enough "might be terrorists" the people in those poor countrys think "ok, we lost, lets try to be just farmers"?
You americans are very proud of your constitution. You would be horrified if some of your people would be arrested or killed without a fair court.
I understand that this is not always possible in the war against terror, but pure terror just leads to the birth of more terror.
And letting many innocent people die as collateral damage would only lead to more people joining terror groups.

My example remains. Lets just think about the possibility that another country decides that your brother could be a terrorist and a sniper kills him on the open street or a bomb kills him together with many members of his familiy.
What would you do? Say "Ok, I understand this, they had to do it" or "Those bastards, I want to see their blood"?

Ok, about special forces.
I'm just searching for the article but as long as I remember a special force on recon mission came under fire and mortar attack. Some of them wounded/dead. Helicopter support was not available/possible and so two Merkava Mrk.IV were sent to help them. They reached the place but one of them run onto an AT-mine and throw a track. In the end the SF were evacuated but two or three IDF soldiers are dead and some are wounded.

Really difficult territory for SFs.

That is logical thinking waylander.
As for specops, mostly nowadays and since the 80s specops have been mostly used in the battlefield intel gathering role. The husband of one of my elder cousins was an SSG officer and led a number of SSG recon patrols during the waning years of the Afghan war. Though they have never been officially acknowledged.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Hold the phone.... Dr. Ruth was a sniper?!?
I reckon she must have nailed a few, she's not the type to take prisoners, is she?:flame

What is happening in Isreal now is a product of thier own unwillingness to committ troops and accept casualties. If they had boots on the ground from Beufort Castle to Beiruit, it would all be over in 48 hours. Instead, they (like US) rely far too much on fancy toys to do thier killing for them. This does not make much of an impression on the vindictive, brutal, midieval psycopaths they are fighting.

Special Forces DO look like a paper tiger these days, they are rarely used and never permitted to finish the job. Every city in every muslim nation should be crawling with American Snipers killing anyone even rumored to support terrorists, THAT would be my idea of a war on terror!

No, not fighting terror with terror. Fight terror with absolute horror. The sooner every Imam in the world has a nervous breakdown, the sooner the rest of us can get on with our lives.

Yes, nice idea AND inspire others to do EXACTLY the same. How many "ugly" Americans are there overseas? Do you think a single Marine platoon is going to ensure the security of "all" your Embassy's/Consulates? That attitude didn't much for the US in Beirut in 1982 and didn't do much in Somalia in 1992/93...

Also the "boots on the ground" argument didn't do much in Vietnam and the "technology" war hasn't done much in Iraq either. Simple fact is The US AND Israel needs to learn how to deal with it's "foes" intelligently rather than dealing with them by sheer force, IMHO. Does this mean they don't need to fight anyone? Of course not. Fight smart not "hard" is a matra often preached, but rarely exercised, IMHO.

Do you think America or anyone else for that matter can kill "everyone" who annoys you or upsets you, with total impugnity? Course not. The US has had more soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan than in the total of ALL it's conflicts since Vietnam and despite it's efforts, still cannot "pacify" a foe, despite it's overwhelming military advantage. Fact is outside America you have to deal with non-american's and "killing large numbers of them" is hardly a way to get them to agree with you.

Simply killing everyone who doesn't agree with your ideals is a simplistic attitude at best. At worst it's a strategy designed for endless war...

 

[Waylander]

You should alsolearn from history. The Israelis already occupied the Libanon from 1982 to 2000. That's a little bit longer than 48 hours. And it did not worked.
And Zahal suffered badly for this.

As said before. Lebanon should be a very difficult terrain for SOFs. Very small, many people and open terrain.

 

[alfred]

.The only reason Israel wont send boots in is b/c the would have to face more than two fronts. Iran, Syria, and the Lebanese armed forces. i think Israel has taking the correct response with precise air strikes. And its unfortunate that innocent people on both sides will die but that is the side effect of a war against a group that imbeds them self’s within the civilian population. if these group were to fight as a conventional army this war would be less destructive.