Is the U.S. Expanding it's War into Pakistan?

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Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
So is it safe to assume that Rogue US commaders are having those drone fly over Pakistan without the knowledge of Pentagon ?

What do you mean by rogue? Orders for the employment of these UAV's would be made in theatre (ie from a HQ in Afghanistan or the middle east somewhere) in accordance with directives issued via the Pentagon from the White House. Perhaps the directives were deliberately vague, or more likely the orders were to overfly Pakistani territory.

To assume there must be a rogue commander presumes that the US has issued an undertaking not to fly in Pakistani airspace - I cannot remember any undertaking like that being publically issued by the US administration.

Even if the US government had issued such an undertaking, often what is done is very different from what is said. All governments do it.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
What do you mean by rogue? Orders for the employment of these UAV's would be made in theatre (ie from a HQ in Afghanistan or the middle east somewhere) in accordance with directives issued via the Pentagon from the White House. Perhaps the directives were deliberately vague, or more likely the orders were to overfly Pakistani territory.

To assume there must be a rogue commander presumes that the US has issued an undertaking not to fly in Pakistani airspace - I cannot remember any undertaking like that being publically issued by the US administration.

Even if the US government had issued such an undertaking, often what is done is very different from what is said. All governments do it.

Yet, the pentagon is denying it.

So if there are no US rogue commanders flying drones over Pakistan without the knowledge of Pentagon then the Pentagon is telling lies ?

Reminds me of Iraq. They also lied so much about the so called Iraqi WMD and went on to invade without the UN approval and against the whole world, killed hundreds of thousands of people and not a single war crime case !!

What has world come to. :(
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Yet, the pentagon is denying it.

So if there are no US rogue commanders flying drones over Pakistan without the knowledge of Pentagon then the Pentagon is telling lies ?

Reminds me of Iraq. They also lied so much about the so called Iraqi WMD and went on to invade without the UN approval and against the whole world, killed hundreds of thousands of people and not a single war crime case !!

What has world come to. :(
Well, the DoD is denying it. CIA hasn't said a damn thing, so whose drone do you think it was? Also, which report is accurate? One report says it landed intact, the other reported that it was strewn over a large area?

Remember what I said about a government saying one thing publically and doing something else covertly? All governments engage in these covert actions, then either deny, or bluster when they are found out. Example include Gary Powers (U2) shootdown, the number of soviet subs discovered in Swedish(?) waters after it ran aground etc.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
Pakistan 'fires on Nato aircraft'


Nato forces in eastern Afghanistan say their helicopters have been fired upon by a Pakistani military checkpoint.

The Western alliance said its aircraft had not crossed into Pakistani airspace when they came under fire over Khost province, news agency AP reports.

The incident comes amid growing tension over a number of recent incidents at the Pakistan-Afghan border.

Earlier this week, Pakistani troops fired warning shots at US helicopters near the border, local officials said.

And on Wednesday, a drone believed to be operated by the CIA crashed inside Pakistan.

In a statement on the latest incident, Nato's International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) said there had been no damage or casualties.

Routine operations

"Isaf helicopters received small-arms fire from a Pakistan military checkpoint along the border near Tanai district, Khost, September 25 while conducting routine operations in Afghanistan," it said in a statement.

"At no time did Isaf helicopters cross into Pakistani airspace," it added.

Isaf said it was working with the Pakistani military to resolve the incident.



Local tribesmen in the area told the BBC that two helicopters were trying to cross into Pakistani territory near Ghulam Khan, in North Waziristan, when Pakistani troops at posts near the border fired at them.

Major Murad Khan, of the Pakistani military, told the BBC that they were still checking the incident.

Correspondents say there is growing anger in Pakistan at US forces in Afghanistan allegedly violating Pakistani sovereignty.

Ground assault

There has been tension between the two countries since 3 September when the US conducted its first ground assault in Pakistani territory on what it said was a militant target in South Waziristan.

Pakistan reacted angrily to the action, saying 20 innocent villagers had been killed by US troops.

Local officials have said that on two occasions since then Pakistani troops or tribesmen have opened fire to stop US forces crossing the border. The claims have not been officially confirmed.

The US and Nato have called on Pakistan to do more to curb militants operating in the border area.

The BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan says that the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is very unclear.

There is an imaginary border called the Durand line which each side marks differently.

Our correspondent says that, in reality, the border is marked by a 3-4km (1-2 miles) stretch of no man's land.

Pakistan says this is its territory and Afghanistan makes similar claims.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7635893.stm

I think that US/NATO occupying a country thousands of miles away are running out of targets and need a new front to support their descending economies.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
Warmongers in US circles must understand that a flare of tension if resulted in a clash between Pakistan and US/NATO will only benefit a few terrorists in the area.

These type of reckless violations by US/NATO only add sympathy in the general public for the trouble makers who least deserve.

The doves in US (if there are any left) are equally to be blamed for not reasoning enough to show the diplomatic alternatives/advantages to the warmonger, blood thristy and trigger happy circles within the US military and civilain circles.

US must do more to help Pakistan take on these trouble makers on their side of the border by Providing better means/weapons/incentives/intelligence and etc instead of violating a UN member's borders and invading a UNO member country against the charter of UN !!
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
Other's side story.

Pakistan says Washington not doing enough
By Ismail Khan

Thursday, 25 Sep, 2008 | 07:31 PM PKT |

PESHAWAR: As the United States pressures Pakistan to do more, Islamabad says it is Washington that is skirting around the real issue of providing the resources to Pakistan to deal with militancy in an effective manner, military and security officials said.

‘We have been saying this and raising this issue virtually at every tier including at the highest level, give us the capability we need, to effectively control the situation in our tribal areas but the Americans have been skirting around the issue’, these officials said in background interviews with Dawn.

The issue was once again raised with the Americans in the last interaction they had when Admiral Mullen, the Chairman of the U.S Joint Chief of Staff visited Islamabad on September 17, according to these officials.

When we ask for capability, they start talking about joint operations and training programmes.

We tell them ‘give us the capability and you will see more effective control of the tribal areas. And they tell us we are looking into it’, is how one military official described the Americans response.

‘We have been saying this for the last four years but there has not been any satisfactory answer’, he said.

These officials, who were privy to negotiations between the Pak-US military leaderships at various times, say that Pakistan has been asking for Night Vision Devices (NVDs), good communication and surveillance systems that can detect and track down militants’ communication besides transport and attack helicopters.

The price of one Cobra helicopter is said to be close to $20 million, making the demand by Pakistan for the military assistance to help combat militancy and terrorism as a multi billion dollar package.

‘What we need is air mobility and NVDs for night operations and not any training programmes. For two years, we have been putting our battalion through a six months rigorous counter-insurgency training programme before we send them into Fata’, the officials said.

Officials acknowledged that massive troop deployments alone would not solve the Fata conundrum. ‘The terrain is such that any number of the army divisions would fall short. It is tough out there. It’s not an easy job. It’s an area where forces are prone to ambushes, rocket attacks and IEDs.’

They said that what was required was the multiplication of efforts in order to deal with militancy on the one hand and preempt collateral damage on the other.

That’s why we say that we need air mobility in terms of air assault capability, communication and surveillance systems and night vision goggles’, one official said.

He said that these issues were raised by the military chief, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, the Chief of General Staff and the Director General Military Operations in their various meetings with American counterparts.

Officials in the know of the Bajaur operation acknowledged how severely handicapped Pakistan felt on account of limited air mobility when helicopters are diverted from one area to the other.

After one hour of operation, helicopters require nine to ten hours of maintenance. There is tremendous load on these helicopters from Bajaur to Swat to Darra Adamkhel’, one official said.

So when the Americans demand that Pakistan take action in the length and breadth of Fata to combat militancy and terrorism, we know what our handicaps and deficiencies are. That’s why we have made our own priorities. There can be one operation in one area at a time. This is our handicap. We don’t have the capacity to engage all the tribal regions. The Americans will either have to understand this or help us by giving us the capability we need’, the official said.

The official said that Pakistan needed to refurbish its helicopters and get sophisticated communication and surveillance system to outdo the militants, who, he added, were using one of the best communication systems. ‘We still use the age-old communication system. This needs to be replaced’, he said.

SUSPICIONS

The irony however, is that, according to this official, the Americans collect the few NVDs provided to the Pakistan Army for routine re-inspection after every three months. ‘Such is the level of trust between us. They fear that some of these NVDs may fall into the wrong hands.’

Such is the level of trust deficit that some circles in the government strongly suspect American motives for putting two much emphasis on training and joint operation than on providing the necessary hardware to help Pakistan overcome problems in its own backyard.

Some government circles are weary and suspicious of large American foot-prints in Pakistan. ‘They want to penetrate our systems and they think that we are naïve not to know what they did in Vietnam and Cambodia’, said one skeptical official, like other officials, requesting he not be named due to sensitivity of the matter.

Pakistan has received $ 6.7 billion since 2002 in Coalition Support Fund for logistic services but knowledgeable sources say that the military has received a fraction of that sum, while most of it went into other projects.

Some senior officials are miffed that while the security forces are fighting a hard battle against militants in Bajaur, the US-led coalition forces across the border have done nothing to stop Afghan Taliban and foreign militants from getting into the Pakistani tribal region.

A security official said that the Commander of the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, Gen. David McKiernan admitted that the level of violence in Bajaur’s neighbouring Afghan province of Kunar had dropped by almost 70% due to Pakistani security engagements in Bajaur.

‘The level of violence in Kunar has decreased at the expense of Bajaur, where it has gone up, and that basically because of the Afghan Taliban led by Qari Ziaur Rehman and his Al-Qaeda cohorts’, the official said.

Now one may ask, why our American friends who have been asking us to do more, not been able to do more on their side of the border in Kunar by stopping the infiltration of Taliban and foreign elements coming into our territory.’

They have better capabilities, certainly better than the capability of a third world country’, the official remarked.

Suspicions are further compounded when, the security official said, the Americans did not act on Pakistan’s intelligence to take out some of the key tribal militant leaders. ‘We gave the intelligence and the coordinates but they took no action’, the official said. ‘They don’t seem to have any interest in our bad guys’, the official said.

THE AMERICAN VERSION

One Pentagon official said that it was hard to put a dollar value on the Pakistan military’s wish-list but said that ‘it's a continual list. It never ends.’

In some cases, like the Unmanned Aerial Vehicles or UAV's and the more advanced Cobra helicopters, the US is unwilling to sell that technology to the Pakistani government, the Pentagon official said on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the issue of US policy.

In others, like the overall helicopter maintenance program, the source said there had been disagreement over how the Pakistani military structured the programme and dissatisfaction within the US administration that capable-flight rate was so low.

In other cases, this official said, the US and Pakistani government had conflicting views on the priority of the specific piece of equipment or system.

‘So don't look at this as a single, comprehensive request,’ the official said. ‘The US views sale of some of this stuff favorably and others not.’

On the training programme, the US officials claimed that they had practically begged the Pakistani army, in particular, to engage in broader training with US forces, including the Special Services Group and Frontier Corps training, but that the military and Pakistani government had refused.

The United States is providing $75 million for direct support of the Frontier Corps, and includes about 13,000 sets of body armor and Kevlar helmets, 330 vehicles, numerous radios, binoculars, first-aid kits and low-visibility imaging systems, as well as money to set up the two FC training facilities, including the first one in Warsak near Peshawar.

http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn%20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/pakistan+says+washington+not+doing+enough+aah
 

thorpete1

New Member
The Federal Tribal Areas (FTA) as the Pakistanis call them are pretty much out of the control of the government. The FTA is where a lot of militants originate. Perhaps the Pentagon no longer see's The FTA as being under Pakistan's control and is instead controlled by a militant Pakistan Taliban, Thus they might see it as executing missions into a hostile country ( or break away Provence).

just a thought, could be all bonkers.

Cheers
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
I think that US/NATO occupying a country thousands of miles away are running out of targets and need a new front to support their descending economies.
Interesting. How exactly does the logic behind this work out?

Curious.
For one, Wars are good for economy such that new contracts and orders are placed by the invading country (in recession) with different companies and corporations to provide extra gear and munitions for the soldiers who then hire extra workers in order to meet this increased production. The unemployment rate goes down which results in Consumer spending goes up which then helps the retail sector who then hire extra employees causing unemployment to drop even further and etc etc.

For two, invading country (US in this case) will have the luxury to give civilian contracts to her own companies to re erect the infrasturcture of the very country they just sent to stone age.

Thirdly, invading country (US in this case) can forcefully shove the second hand and the very equipment they fought with at a profitable price down the throat of the military they just sent to stone age.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
The Federal Tribal Areas (FTA) as the Pakistanis call them are pretty much out of the control of the government. The FTA is where a lot of militants originate. Perhaps the Pentagon no longer see's The FTA as being under Pakistan's control and is instead controlled by a militant Pakistan Taliban, Thus they might see it as executing missions into a hostile country ( or break away Provence).

just a thought, could be all bonkers.

Cheers
Its not FTA is FATA = Federal Administered Tribal Areas. They have never been in control of Pakistan government. They are granted significant degree of autonomy by the constitution. & also there is a big difference between the tribes & the talibans/militants - although many militants are recruited from the tribes, no tribe is part of any militant organization. On the other hand tribesmen have started take notice of their diminishing autonomy under the presence of militants rather then Pakistan Army that is why many tribal gunman just start to follow the Pakistan Army convy to fight the militants.
 

stigmata

New Member
Aliph Ahmed said:
For one, Wars are good for economy such that new contracts and orders are placed by the invading country (in recession) with different companies and corporations to provide extra gear and munitions for the soldiers who then hire extra workers in order to meet this increased production. The unemployment rate goes down which results in Consumer spending goes up which then helps the retail sector who then hire extra employees causing unemployment to drop even further and etc etc.

For two, invading country (US in this case) will have the luxury to give civilian contracts to her own companies to re erect the infrasturcture of the very country they just sent to stone age.

Thirdly, invading country (US in this case) can forcefully shove the second hand and the very equipment they fought with at a profitable price down the throat of the military they just sent to stone age.
There is also the fact that, by making the world a more hostile place, worlds military spending increases.
As the largest gunrunner, USA will benefit most from that.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Wow Aliph Ahmed,

I do not think you have to worry about that war mongering nation invading Pakistan, the more that I am following this it is becoming clear that this stage has been set up by Pakistan and the U.S. All Pakistan has been giving is small threats with a little concern showing on the American side, fire a few shots and flares to keep the general population in Pakistan content thinking that Pakistan is not tolerating this type of bullish behavior that has been displayed by that war mongering nation, and it is working by just reading your posts. Pakistan has been on a major offensive along this border also and so far they have killed a estimated 800 insurgents and who knows how many have been captured, DOD announced yesterday a major upgrade package deal with Pakistan for their Cobra attack helicopters, hardely and act that is being taken with two allies ready to go to war with each other. Hopefully with better coordination we will not have too many additional skirmishes.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
Wow Aliph Ahmed,

I do not think you have to worry about that war mongering nation invading Pakistan, the more that I am following this it is becoming clear that this stage has been set up by Pakistan and the U.S. All Pakistan has been giving is small threats with a little concern showing on the American side, fire a few shots and flares to keep the general population in Pakistan content thinking that Pakistan is not tolerating this type of bullish behavior that has been displayed by that war mongering nation, and it is working by just reading your posts. Pakistan has been on a major offensive along this border also and so far they have killed a estimated 800 insurgents and who knows how many have been captured, DOD announced yesterday a major upgrade package deal with Pakistan for their Cobra attack helicopters, hardely and act that is being taken with two allies ready to go to war with each other. Hopefully with better coordination we will not have too many additional skirmishes.
You are contradicting yourself. :d

Do you even realize the extent of ripple effects if a US soldier dies or a helicopter crashes in these so called as per you " planned skrimishes" ?

I have been saying all along and I repeat :

Pakistan should take care of these terrorists in her own backyard and that the world community specially US should help Pakistan instead of taking actions that create sympathy for the terrorists instead of the army.

Plan or no plan, I among many Pakistanis for the record support action against these terrorists only by Pakistan armed forces.

There is more to it which you dont know that I am privilidged to know but that falls under politics which is a no go area in this topic. I'll still give you a hint : Past of the present leader is quite colorful. :rolleyes:
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
The following are just two of the countless examples that not all and infact most people from FATA areas are not terrorists:

Tribesmen guard an army convoy in this town of Bajaur Agency on Friday. The Frontier Corps inspector general said that troops had killed 1,000 Taliban in a huge offensive in the region. Reporters were flown by helicopter to Khar, the main town in Bajaur, for a briefing on the military operation launched in August against Taliban who had taken control of most of the region. afp

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\09\27\story_27-9-2008_pg1_13

Pakistani men from tribal forces chant slogans against the Taliban in Raghagan, some 12 kms northeast of Khar, in the troubled Bajaur agency. Pakistan said Friday that troops have killed 1,000 Islamist militants in a huge offensive, a day after President Asif Ali Zardari lashed out at US forces over a clash on the Afghan border.
(AFP/POOL/Aamir Qureshi)

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//080926/photos_wl_pc_afp/99183523e4390ee0ca6491590d0b4ab0/

The point is, that these reckless unilateral strikes by US give sympathy to the few terrorists in the area. Not to mention the collateral damage also creates further sympathy for the terrorists among the local FATA population.

So why would US take actions which will make them FATA tribesmen as enemies when they are friends/good terms/sympathysiers to Pakistan armed forces/US?

Unless offcourse, US dont want the situation to stablized for whatever " other " purposes because then they would have no reason to stay in Afghanistan and thus, a loss of free military base from which they can infulence the region to restrict emerging Russian interests to reach the warm waters.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
No, not a contradition but a sarcastic remark,

So how effective were these war monger raids, could it be that the targets that were hit was so sensitive that if Pakistan actually conducted these raids public fallout would of been at a uprising level, also the U.S losing a helicopter or the lives of soldiers will not start WW3, most likely cause a ripple effect with in Pakistan, and all your government has to show the public is massive chest thumping with the statements like for example, we showed those evil war mongers and we even warned them. Again, my impression is that these attacks are coordinated between both countries, it is just a matter of Pakistan having to deny involvement due to public opinion.

If you want to send me a PM inregards to the present leader of Pakistan I would be most interested knowing Pakistan public opinion instead of the trash talk coming from CNN.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The following are just two of the countless examples that not all and infact most people from FATA areas are not terrorists:

Tribesmen guard an army convoy in this town of Bajaur Agency on Friday. The Frontier Corps inspector general said that troops had killed 1,000 Taliban in a huge offensive in the region. Reporters were flown by helicopter to Khar, the main town in Bajaur, for a briefing on the military operation launched in August against Taliban who had taken control of most of the region. afp

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008927story_27-9-2008_pg1_13

Pakistani men from tribal forces chant slogans against the Taliban in Raghagan, some 12 kms northeast of Khar, in the troubled Bajaur agency. Pakistan said Friday that troops have killed 1,000 Islamist militants in a huge offensive, a day after President Asif Ali Zardari lashed out at US forces over a clash on the Afghan border.
(AFP/POOL/Aamir Qureshi)

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//080926/photos_wl_pc_afp/99183523e4390ee0ca6491590d0b4ab0/

The point is, that these reckless unilateral strikes by US give sympathy to the few terrorists in the area. Not to mention the collateral damage also creates further sympathy for the terrorists among the local FATA population.

So why would US take actions which will make them FATA tribesmen as enemies when they are friends/good terms/sympathysiers to Pakistan armed forces/US?

Unless offcourse, US dont want the situation to stablized for whatever " other " purposes because then they would have no reason to stay in Afghanistan and thus, a loss of free military base from which they can infulence the region to restrict emerging Russian interests to reach the warm waters.
Why wouldn`t the U.S want this area to stabilize, do you think that Afghanistan would want us to leave, don`t play the stabilization trump card, we will more than likely be in Afghanistan alot longer then being in Iraq. Russia already has their interests almost met with a nice port being refurbished in Syria. Would you feel comfortable with a close alliance Indian country moving into Afghanistan, country being Russia of course.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
Why wouldn`t the U.S want this area to stabilize, do you think that Afghanistan would want us to leave, don`t play the stabilization trump card, we will more than likely be in Afghanistan alot longer then being in Iraq. Russia already has their interests almost met with a nice port being refurbished in Syria. Would you feel comfortable with a close alliance Indian country moving into Afghanistan, country being Russia of course.
US installed Karzai and company are puppets and represent less then 10% of the Afghani population and hell yes, the remianing 90% of Afghani population would want US to get the hell out of their country ASAP.

Then why would US get involved in reckless unilateral strikes which even a layman knows that they are guaranteed to have a negative effect and not help Pakistan army instead ?

I posted two pictures where there are good tribals. Why get involved in actions which will turn them from friend to foe and increase the problems many folds ?

You just dont want to admit the obvious : US dont want stabilization and therefore are pretty much guaranteed to have a reason to continue to occupy Afghanistan and block access of Russian influence to Gawadar.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
ISPR says Kabul not preventing infiltration

LAHORE: Afghanistan is not making any effort to control the influx of armed fighters and heavy weapons into the Bajaur Agency from across the border, Inter-Services Public Relations Director General Maj Gen Athar Abbas said on Saturday. According to Dawn News, Abbas told reporters at Khar in Bajaur that most of the money and weapons for the Taliban came from the Afghan drug trade. He said Pakistan had fenced 35 km of the Pak-Afghan border before Afghanistan requested to stop it. daily times monitor.

So all this border control is expected of Pakistan only eh ?

Why not US/NATO stop these terrorists from infiltrating into Pakistan from the Afghani side ?

Or do they have the blessing of US ?
:rolleyes:
 

Stryker001

Banned Member
If the Prime Minister, President and Cabinet were supposed to be at the Marriott and if that is true, furthermore if members of the senior staff were also meant to be there the Pakistani Army would be in control of Pakistan, quite possibly Musharraf would have come out of retirement to resume command in Pakistan's time of need.

The parliament contains elected officials that support the insurgents. What Musharraf knows back in 2007 is that the next President of the US will invade the enclaves. And the Pakistani Army know this so hence the reaction to minor incursions.

The incursions are destabilizing the Government not the Pakistani Army, as is the offensive, Musharraf has check-mated the new government.

Remember when the heat was on the ISI prior to Musharraf resigning it was he who they went to, there are Musharraf loyalist all over the place. That sort of intelligence even for Pakistan means that their are forces at work against the government, quite possibly against the army.

It is only a matter of time before the new government falls. The point is changing the Government from Musharraf to civilians would make no difference to the situation with the militants.

Its the body count, kill enough of them and they will fall inline and back under the control of the ISI and Pakistani Army, the militants have forgot who's in charge of Pakistan.
 
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