Iran to buy SU-30MK

[kato]

I'm not an expert in assembler, but I can assure you that handwritten code in Assembler probably doesn't have the complexity of the code produced by a compiler.

I'd love to have a compiler that can fine-tune code to the same extent as handwritten assembler can.

 

[paskal]

True. I could see Iran buying 20-30, or maybe even up to 60-80 SU-30s.
Definitely not 250.

As in, enough to replace their F4 and F14 squadrons with a modern frontline fighter. The rest of Iran's airforce is a far more likely candidate for replacement with either much cheaper indigenous designs or license-produced aircraft (eg their Mirage F1, MiG-23, F5, Chengdu F-7), or is far too "capable" (i.e. not largely grounded) with their current equipment (MiG-29, Su-24) and not any candidate for immediate replacement.


Iran's overall defence budget is somewhere between $4 and 6 billion, so even 60 Su-30s would not be very likely within the next 2-3 years - those 60 would cost Iran in excess of $3 billion to $4 billion, including some necessary training and support.
And Iran, due to their situation, doesn't really do stretched-out long-term contracts with spread-out payment. 250 Sukhois would easily exceed $10 billion - before the logistics contract needed as well would even kick in. With support, it's more like $12-15 billion. Next to impossible for Iran to finance.

what type of sukhois will they purchase?

 

[graham_chan]

Mod Warning: Mocking/insulting other nations/countries & their armed forces is not allowed. & this is not Economic &/or political forum - if you have nothing to say relating to the topic on military level than keep is quite. This is your 1st mistake so it would be taken cool, next time the coolness will turn to heat.

& plz do all the mods & admin a favor & read the rules!

-SABRE

 

[Wale14]

how many SU-30 MK's is Iran purchasing? and which 1970 American Figther jets of Iran are gonna be replaced by the su-30 mk?

 

[Manfred2]

I just heard that Iran is manufacturing a "new" fighter that looks a lot like an F-20 with twin tails.

Does anyone have any information on its capabilities, or its true pedigree?

 

[radiosilence]

I just heard that Iran is manufacturing a "new" fighter that looks a lot like an F-20 with twin tails.

Does anyone have any information on its capabilities, or its true pedigree?

It has been discussed in these threads.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6631

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6807

 

[contedicavour]

With sanctions in place I don't expect any formal government to government sale of highly visible jets such as SU30MK.
I'd rather expect sales of small batches to Syria and then miraculously reappearing in Iran, but not more than a few MIG29s second hand, and a lot of spare parts and weaponry to build up stocks in expectation of a confrontation with the USN in the Gulf.

cheers

 

[SABRE]

The Su-30 deal is just a "rumor". I had asked one of my Iranian friends about this before this thread started & also few days back & it stays a "rumor."

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

i heard a rumor going around annother forum that Iran has possible made an order for ~24 J10's.

Anyone heard anything on this?

 

[Grand Danois]

This is in the news...

China denies reports it will sell fighter jets to Iran
The Associated Press
Published: October 25, 2007

BEIJING: China denied Thursday published reports it had agreed to sell its homegrown fighter jets to Iran, saying no talks had taken place.

Reports in Russian and Israeli media said Iran had signed a deal with China to purchase two dozen of its home-designed fighter jets known as the J-10, which could signal greater military cooperation between the countries at a time of continued tension between Iran and the West over its nuclear program.

"It's not true, it is an irresponsible report," Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao told reporters. "China has not had talks with Iran on J-10 jets."

Chinese state media revealed at the end of last year that the Chinese air force was equipped with a new generation of the J-10 fighter plane.

Ties between China and Iran are largely absent of the tensions between that country and the West, and it remains an important oil supplier to feed China's growing economy.

The J-10 has been in development since the late 1980s, according to Global Security, and has utilized Russian technology.

The Russian news reports said the planes would be delivered starting next year, and the contract could be worth US$1 billion (€700 million).

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/25/asia/AS-GEN-China-Iran-Fighter-Jets.php

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Cheers, that one came out of left field, i wasn't sure what to make of it.

 

[riksavage]

Defense Industry Daily is reporting the same, stating Iran has signed a contract with China for the delivery of two squadrons (24) of its J-10 fighter planes scheduled for delivery in 2008-2010.

The Chinese J-10 is based on plans sold by the Israelis in the 1980s, after their Lavi fighter program had been canceled – talk about irony!!!

 

[swerve]

Been denied by everyone supposedly involved.

 

[merocaine]

Been denied by everyone supposedly involved.

I can't see the PRC jeopardising there trade/military relations with the Israelies for the sake of a few dozen jets. If they did it would be a big departure for them.

China is a friendly to Iran (there biggest trading partner), and shares there vision of the future, ie a multi polar world of soverigen states, but they do not allow those ties to effect there relations with the west, as least not yet.
Selling advanced jets to the Iranians would most assuredly do so.

 

[Firehorse]

Why not?

There is a new article Chengdu J-10 Fighters for Iran
by Richard Fisher on benefits for importing the
J-10, with which I agree. Even if that sale goes ahead, IMHO it may not automaticaly exclude future sales of SU-30s. They may complement each other as in the PLAAF.

J-10 2 seat training version: http://wp.scn.ru/ru/ww4/f/1322/30/0/8

Now compare these with Lavi, especially the last 2 pictures-

http://wp.scn.ru/ru/ww4/f/979/89/0/3

http://wp.scn.ru/ru/ww4/f/979/89/0/3_b1

For those interested in PLAN SSBNs, I recently edited my last post on the related tread.

 

[tphuang]

taking the other debate to the correct thread.

I'm sure they would be interested in seeing the nuts and bolts of the beast, and exactly how she performed but its hardly a dealbreaker. The exact functions and ranges of the radar would be handy, as would the exact flight carecteristics, but the radar info would be obsolete in months anyway if that exact model was compromised. However this would not effect the way the platform could be employed or the way it would be combatted, it would be nice to know but the "threat" of a J10 falling into US hands and somehow being compromised is no reason not to export the platform. Apart from learning the exact peramiters of the platform there is no magic capability that if learned will render the system uncompetitive. Thats a tad melodramatic IMO.

Not melodramatic at all, when US top generals visit China, they are not even allowed to see a J-10. The radar info would not be obsolete, because the general algorithm, military processor and stuff like that would be similar in different radar set (especially since they all come from one radar institute). You are just grasping at the straw here. Why would China risk its national defense to make $1 billion, when it can export a much inferior brand (JF-17) to Iran? I don't think you have any idea how important J-10 is to China's air defense.

Sorry, last i heard they didnt have a final system chosen. Do you have any general info? Is it an MSA or PESA?

I've posted it on my blog actually, but general info are mechanically scanned, tracks 10 in TWS mode, can engage 4 and can track 3 m^2 targets that are 150 KM away.

They MAY get some marginal benifits in terns of LPI, however i doubt they would tweek their LO at all, unless chinese radars use compleatly different principles to the rest of the world's, and even for the EW suite i would bet there are plenty of similarities on how the system works with 4th gen russian systems. So i really dont see how looking over things would change anything major. It would give them exact data to do WVR engagement training and simulations on, but again i really dont see how this is any reason not do export the platform.

Don't make assumptions. For example, we've seen stuff like MAW and holographic HUD on operational PLAAF fighters before the Russians put them on airshow models. Again, if these things clearly would give oppostion the advantage, why would you do it? You think China is that lacking money that it would give away any surprise/semi-advantage it possibly still has for $1 billion?

This is perhaps the major factor in exports within the next ~5 years. However i dont see why the threat of the platform being compromised is a reason to ban all exports of it. The consequences of such would be rather minor i would think. Iranian F14's were compromised to the soviets and that was hardly the end of that platform.

America has F-15, F-16, F-18. What do you think China has outside of J-10? Flankers? I have about as much faith on sk/mkk as the J-8s.

I'm going to love critiquing this

There is a new article Chengdu J-10 Fighters for Iran
by Richard Fisher on benefits for importing the
J-10, with which I agree

For the later there is perhaps a more competitive relationship, with China now seeking to ensure its “market share” in the face of Russian efforts to sell advanced air defense systems and combat aircraft. As such, an implication of a potential J-10 sale is that China may also be marketing its advanced air-defense missiles to Iran, like the FTC-2000, which also draw on Russian technology.

China doesn't need any more of Iran's share. Every major project that they have probably received some of Chinese assistance.

Another reason for Iran to purchase the J-10 would be to replace the 24 or so obsolete Chengdu F-7M fighters that it purchased in 1987. The F-7M, a Chinese copy of the Russian MiG-21C Fishbed is a relatively simple supersonic interceptor with a short range and very limited weapons payload. The J-10 is a modern 4th generation multi-role air combat and attack fighter.

again, JF-17 would be perfect for this.

The IRG is also quite economically powerful in Iran. For China to have close relationship with Iran, it must have a strong relationship with the IRG, hence, the logic of its willingness to sell the J-10 fighter to Iran.

again, why export J-10 when they would take JF-17?

By selling advanced weapons to Iran like the J-10, China can bolster help “normalize” Tehran’s image and ease its entry into the SCO, which will substantially help its geostrategic heft.

China clearly at this point is not supporting any formal membership for Tehran due to US pressures.

 

[Viper7]

I would rather see Iran go for the Russian fighters. Say around (200) Su-35BM Flankers and around (300) MiG-35 Fulcrums. It would do Iran a whole lot'a'good by going for to advance platforms in bulk numbers. Replacing its cluttered fleet of F-1C Mirages, Su-25 Frogfoots, MiG-23 Floggers, Su-24 Fencers, MiG-29 Fulcrums, F-5 Tigers, F-4 Phantoms & F-14 Tomcats.

Current Iranian Air Force line-up is an logistical nightmare! Replacing them with Su-35s & MiG-35s would not only give IRIAF the much needed lethality, but also a streamlined fleet which would give the Iranians a better chance at logistics, generating sorties & holding its own in a conflict. Also, that IRIAF should back its Su-35 Flankers, MiG-35 Fulcrums with the Russian A-50 Mainstays.

IRIAF, in its current state, is a complete maze of exotic, vintage fighters. It is in dire need of a fleet revamp.

 

[funtz]

Its a nice lil plan there,

Well where is the money for all of this, 200 su 30 BM (an assumption of 60 mil per platform), 300 mig 35 (assumption of 50 mil per platform) gets us to a hypothetical value of 27000 million US dollars.

The required infrastructure for these platforms and the infamous follow up costs of Russian platforms (spares), should be ignored. Russia with the power of the sole supplier of military hardware might just say what the heck, we give you ancient substandard radar, old weapons and no guarantee for spare supply in time, at higher costs than normal.

If they do dig in deep and get the money and Russia to agree on the sales, at a very generous rate of 50 birds per year 500 birds will fly out in 10 years hardly the next fall line out target for the IRIAF.

Will they not be better off with the local Platforms with Russian engines, weapons and radars as the large work horse part of the AF (this has been done before) and Russian platforms for the air superiority role.
This is with the assumption that they do not fly against a trillion ++ dollar military (like the US), as the costs to match them up might fly through the roof.

About the J-10 if the IRIAF is desperate to get them the Chinese can always sell it with Russian radars and engines if there is a significant demand (more than 150) for them after all money is always welcomed, however the associated risks (economical/diplomatic) will not exactly be what China desires given the amount of trade going on between the nations who might have a problem with this and China.

 

[Viper7]

Well where is the money for all of this, 200 su 30 BM (an assumption of 60 mil per platform), 300 mig 35 (assumption of 50 mil per platform) gets us to a hypothetical value of 27000 million US dollars.

Umm ... is it me or are we talking about some African country, say Zimbabwe?

This is Iran we're talking about, not some country with no resources or industrial wealth. Iran is the right there at the top in the list of countries with Oil and Natural Gas. There is no question that, IF Iran prioritizes its Air Force to be revamped and re-equipped, it has the means to do so.

I don't see you point there buddy, but the last time I checked, the Oil was selling at over $90 per barrel. Thats alot'a'money!!!!

The required infrastructure for these platforms and the infamous follow up costs of Russian platforms (spares), should be ignored. Russia with the power of the sole supplier of military hardware might just say what the heck, we give you ancient substandard radar, old weapons and no guarantee for spare supply in time, at higher costs than normal.

Wait .... you're saying that?!! Wow ... now that is amazing coming from someone like you, whose country's airforce has more than 70% of its fleet on Russian fighters!

So then, going by what you say, the fourth largest airforce in the world (indian air force), is flying metal junk? And the iaf buys stuff from a two bit hawker?

If they do dig in deep and get the money and Russia to agree on the sales, at a very generous rate of 50 birds per year 500 birds will fly out in 10 years hardly the next fall line out target for the IRIAF.

Well, there is not a single airforce which would get like 100 fighters in one go and in 6 months! So its not that difficult to imagine that Iran would be getting it at the normal build rate. Besides, isn't that where gradual phase out is carried out by most of the airforces around the world?

Look at it this way, even after three years (going by your hypothesis), that would be 150 Su-35s from Sukhoi production plant & 150 MiG-35s from the Mikoyan plant.

Hmm .... now that ain't bad at all!!!!

Will they not be better off with the local Platforms with Russian engines, weapons and radars as the large work horse part of the AF (this has been done before) and Russian platforms for the air superiority role.

Now am I missing something here, cuz I coulda sworn that local effort would sap the funds dry with R&D and would be really time consuming! And even if the engines and radars are provided by Russia. Are you suggesting that Iranians are gonna fit a Zhuk-ME radar on their Shafaaq fighter?

Good luck with that pal!!

This is with the assumption that they do not fly against a trillion ++ dollar military (like the US), as the costs to match them up might fly through the roof.

Now that is amusing, I mean no offense'n'all, but you're telling me that a trillion dollar military like America is not being probed by Iran? You think Iran doesn't know that the current state of America's air force is stretched to the limit and that its fighters are getting worn out fast. You think that the Iranians aren't aware of F-15 wire bundles are catching fire, that their skins are peeling off and that they just grounded the entire fleet because of a crash in Virginia?

Fact, the United States would not be stupid to go into a full blown war with Iran, when its forces are tied down in Iraq and Afghanistan. Fact, United States has seen the effects of going into Iraq, as they are continuing to fall back in Afghanistan. Why? Because they had to divert their war-fighters to Iraq's campaign.

What do you honestly think, would happen in Iraq and Afghanistan when they decide to attack Iran?

About the J-10 if the IRIAF is desperate to get them the Chinese can always sell it with Russian radars and engines if there is a significant demand (more than 150) for them after all money is always welcomed, however the associated risks (economical/diplomatic) will not exactly be what China desires given the amount of trade going on between the nations who might have a problem with this and China.

Buddy, honestly, China wouldn't sell the J-10s in a million years to Iran. For the simple reason, that it intends to field this fighter in heavy numbers.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but when was the last time the United States faced an adversary with even a half-decent airforce? Does USSR ring a bell??? There is no credible fighter force with a decent fighter fleet which can match the quality and quantity of USAF's F-15s, F-16s & USN's F-18s.

China, is the only country in the world which can challenge the United States, fighter for fighter, tank for tank, soldier for soldier.

Now the J-10 Vanguard, along with the J-11B Flanker and the JH-7 Flying Leapord. Constitutes of a formidable fighting force, even its half in terms of quality of the Eagles, Falcons & Hornets. Fact is, the USAF/USN has not faced an enemy which has the ability to pit large portion of its fleet, in air battles to challege America for Air Dominance.

Keeping that in mind, do you honestly think that China would risk the chance of J-10s falling in the hands of the United States. Per chance that it ends up in IRIAF and that one of'em (J-10) is shot down in the Persian Gulf and the Americans are able to retrieve it and take a closer look at the aircraft.

A little nostalgic lesson ..... During WW2, the USAF only overwhelmed the JASDF when it got a closer look at their 'Zero' fighter.

 

[funtz]

Umm ... is it me or are we talking about some African country, say Zimbabwe?
This is Iran we're talking about, not some country with no resources or industrial wealth. Iran is the right there at the top in the list of countries with Oil and Natural Gas. There is no question that, IF Iran prioritizes its Air Force to be revamped and re-equipped, it has the means to do so.
I don't see you point there buddy, but the last time I checked, the Oil was selling at over $90 per barrel. Thats alot'a'money!!!!

Iran is not exactly that much ahead of a lot of nations just because of the petrochemical resources. There are a lot of added burdens that come in from being a economy that subsidizes on every thing under the sun and faces a lot of shortfalls due to the very 80-85 % oil based economy you talk about.
And that 90 dollars per barrel is not pure liquid profit
here all the easy net information on Iran into one page
http://www.parstimes.com/economy/

"If Iran prioritizes its Air Force to be revamped and re-equipped" then
There are many ways of doing it, and more economic ways, who said they can not do it.

Wait .... you're saying that?!! Wow ... now that is amazing coming from someone like you, whose country's airforce has more than 70% of its fleet on Russian fighters!
So then, going by what you say, the fourth largest airforce in the world (indian air force), is flying metal junk? And the iaf buys stuff from a two bit hawker?
Well, there is not a single airforce which would get like 100 fighters in one go and in 6 months! So its not that difficult to imagine that Iran would be getting it at the normal build rate. Besides, isn't that where gradual phase out is carried out by most of the airforces around the world?
Look at it this way, even after three years (going by your hypothesis), that would be 150 Su-35s from Sukhoi production plant & 150 MiG-35s from the Mikoyan plant.
Hmm .... now that ain't bad at all!!!!

i think you really felt happy about that coming from an Indian, well I do not say it, as god as my witness I can say that I have never been near 300 feet of a MiG 23-27-29,
News reports on Indian Air Force says all of this, and that is why I am aware of it.

Its ’cause of the poor spare availability of RU hardware that HAL and MiG have set up a dedicated spare facility and manufacture the modified versions of RD 33 engines, the SU 30s include a comprehensive ToT that enables more flexibility in spare/maintenance.

This has been covered in the media a lot of times right up to 2007.

India will make licensed Russia RD-33 engines, 24 January 2007:
www.domain-b.com/industry/aviation/20070124_aeroengines.htm
Deal to build stocks of MiG spares
The Hindu Thursday, Aug 23, 2007
http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/23/stories/2007082361251300.htm
Similar steps will be required by Iran if they wish to operate Ru aircrafts in numbers as large as the IAF.

If you wish to call IAF junk, do so, its not like that will spoil my Diwali, or the IAF’s or anyones for that matter.

As for the point of the number of production post, the point is there is a immediate threat that has to be dealt with, and this does not seem to help in that.

Now if I give a hypothetical assumption of 50 for 500 that comes to about 25 MiG and 25 SU that is 75 SU and 75 MiG planes in 3 years, not the 300 number you suggested which will be the exact double, anyways still a capable number and types of aircrafts. Almost enough for the purpose more of them are not needed.

Now am I missing something here, cuz I coulda sworn that local effort would sap the funds dry with R&D and would be really time consuming! And even if the engines and radars are provided by Russia. Are you suggesting that Iranians are gonna fit a Zhuk-ME radar on their Shafaaq fighter?
Good luck with that pal!!

They already have a indigenous platform so plenty of local money has already been spent, hence no point not using that platform, it can be turned in the major stay to fill in the numbers, Zhuk-ME, MFE or what ever, is not what I said you assumed it yourself. There are plenty of Ru radars for combat aircrafts that are far more available however less capable.

There have been radar and missile integration programs on platforms as old as the MiG-21 it is called the MiG-21 Bison, so i whould imagine that a higher degree can be achieved with the Iranian combat aircrafts if they wish to practice this option for the integration of radar and missiles, this is not a new thing or a technological leap of any degree.

As for the engines on Iranian AFs domestic platforms

Oct. 16, 2007
Iranian Fighters to Fly with Russian Engines: Iran buys 50 engines to equip domestically manufactured aircrafts

A major deal to sell turbo-jet engines to Iran is to be signed during the upcoming visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin to Tehran, a Kommersant source reported. The deal will help Tehran to set up the serial output of its domestically manufactured jets. Russia in its turn hopes to gain access to an up-and-coming market. However, this is most likely to bring a chill to relations with the United States which is unhappy about Russia’s cooperation with the Iranian regime.

http://www.kommersant.com/p815301/r_529/Iran_Arms_Aviation_Military/

Iran-Russia 50 jet engines deal
http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_22999.shtml

Russia to sell Iran 50 MiG-29 engines: report
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSL166770620071016

i do not need that good luck you offered its not like
- i will fly them, or
- i will buy them.
Keep that spared for the IRIAF.

I am not dissing Ru platforms i am dissing the 500 number.

It is no surprise that Iranian military needs to equip itself with more recent equipment, however going for the above mentioned 200 SU-35 BM and 300 MiG-35 is not perhaps the best way to go about it.

Now that is amusing, I mean no offense'n'all, but you're ……blah blah....

What do you honestly think, would happen in Iraq and Afghanistan when they decide to attack Iran?]

Well weather they like it or not it really seems the USA and Israel will be their primary threats for the foreseeable future.
I have already expressed my opinions on that in the Irans new strategy thread on the general military defense section of the forum, I will like to hear your views and retort in that thread.
here be the links
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6804
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6945

Buddy, honestly, China wouldn't sell the J-10s in a million years to Iran. For the simple reason, that it intends to field this fighter in heavy numbers.
Keeping that in mind, do you honestly think that China would risk the chance of J-10s falling in the hands of the United States. Per chance that it ends up in IRIAF and that one of'em (J-10) is shot down in the Persian Gulf and the Americans are able to retrieve it and take a closer look at the aircraft.

A million years is a lot of time, if you wished to discuss the above stated comment as a figure of speech for a long long time, well that is what I said
to quote myself from the last post

About the J-10 if the IRIAF is desperate to get them the Chinese can always sell it with Russian radars and engines if there is a significant demand (more than 150) for them after all money is always welcomed, however the associated risks (economical/diplomatic) will not exactly be what China desires given the amount of trade going on between the nations who might have a problem with this and China.

China will not risk the situation just for the sake of 20-30 odd planes, it does not make sense economically, let alone militarily, even if they do for some reason then they will sell a very restricted version with different avionics.

I still fail to understand what exactly will the performance of Russian engines and some old radar provide USA with even if they might get a hold of J-10s in a purely hypothetical situation, this is considering that China is making its own engine, radar, weapons etc. for the platform

If I use your logic then

SU-35BM is the Russian front line combat aircraftmeant to bridge the gap between the 4.5 and 5 generation, even the Russians will not transfer that to Iran, just like the J-10.

All of this seems irrelevant as all concerned parties have denied the report about this.

A little nostalgic lesson ..... During WW2, the USAF only overwhelmed the JASDF when it got a closer look at their 'Zero' fighter.

During the WW2, will that be the time when props were used on combat aircrafts along with guns, oh yes yes i saw a nat geo documentary on those times, i think it was called ancient battles from your grandfathers youth, such nice animations they had.
The combat in the aerial battlefield seems to have evolved a lot after that era.