Interesting & obscure RAN discussions (not related to current capabilities)

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Hazdog

Member
CEAFAR is scalable IIRC, with there being different options in terms of the size and power required for the array, so unless the power generation capabilities of the Arafura-class OPV are significantly less than would be found in a corvette, I think the power issue is minimal. Particularly when one recalls that the OPV is going to be operating the 9LV CMS, or at least elements of it.

I would expect some charges would be required to physically fit the array panels, as well as running the appropriate, and appropriately shielding conduits and cabling.

The real question I would have though is what advantage would there really be in fitting a phased array aboard an OPV? Such a capability could permit the OPV to rapidly refresh the scan area, but that is not such a benefit for surface shipping. The vessel itself would not be suitable for use as a radar picket because it possesses inadequate self-defense capabilities to operate so independently in threatened or contested waters.
Not to be pedantic, but consider the environment the USCG is operating and the technologies they face with narco submarines and such; this sort of technological development and mild innovation could easily be passed into our region, with other technologies and goals in mind. (Very few people would have predicted narco subs ~30 years ago).

As such, it may be likely to consider that small drones that are relatively fast may be used in our region with malicious intent, so the refresh rate and resolution of the CEAFAR may actually be useful during the Arafura's service.

Of course, this is assuming many future conditions, but again the future is very hard to predict, so we may actually find CEAFAR very useful...
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Not to be pedantic, but consider the environment the USCG is operating and the technologies they face with narco submarines and such; this sort of technological development and mild innovation could easily be passed into our region, with other technologies and goals in mind. (Very few people would have predicted narco subs ~30 years ago).

As such, it may be likely to consider that small drones that are relatively fast may be used in our region with malicious intent, so the refresh rate and resolution of the CEAFAR may actually be useful during the Arafura's service.

Of course, this is assuming many future conditions, but again the future is very hard to predict, so we may actually find CEAFAR very useful...
The present plans are for the Arafura-class OPV's to be kitted out with a 2D radar system of some sort. Looking through, an example of a 2D radar system in active service currently is the L-band AN/SPS-49 Long Range Air Surveillance Radar which has a scan rate of 6 or 12 RPM. To put it another way, target contact data refreshes every 5 to 10 seconds.

Given that the OPV's will have essentially no air defence capability, then it should make little difference whether an aerial contact position is updated continuously, every second, or every 5-10 seconds. For situations where a high refresh or scan rate is needed, that AFAIK would typically to detect and engage inbound fast air and/or AShM. The OPV's, not being kitted out to intercept AShM, should not need target positional data updated quite so frequently.

Remember, the OPV's are largely going to be engaged in open-ocean constabulary operations. Not exactly the sort of situation where small drones would be operating, and particularly not the sort where their position could change significantly in 5 or 10 seconds.

Now certainly CEAFAR or similar type systems could add capability to the OPV's due to additional information coming from beam forming, but the question would remain whether or not the cost would really be worthwhile. I suspect the answer would be, "no."
 

Hazdog

Member
The present plans are for the Arafura-class OPV's to be kitted out with a 2D radar system of some sort. Looking through, an example of a 2D radar system in active service currently is the L-band AN/SPS-49 Long Range Air Surveillance Radar which has a scan rate of 6 or 12 RPM. To put it another way, target contact data refreshes every 5 to 10 seconds.

Given that the OPV's will have essentially no air defence capability, then it should make little difference whether an aerial contact position is updated continuously, every second, or every 5-10 seconds. For situations where a high refresh or scan rate is needed, that AFAIK would typically to detect and engage inbound fast air and/or AShM. The OPV's, not being kitted out to intercept AShM, should not need target positional data updated quite so frequently.

Remember, the OPV's are largely going to be engaged in open-ocean constabulary operations. Not exactly the sort of situation where small drones would be operating, and particularly not the sort where their position could change significantly in 5 or 10 seconds.

Now certainly CEAFAR or similar type systems could add capability to the OPV's due to additional information coming from beam forming, but the question would remain whether or not the cost would really be worthwhile. I suspect the answer would be, "no."
I understand that for sure, but I'm more referring to the possible role that the radar may enable the Arafura's to expand the scope of the constabulary role that may include tracking small drones (such as quadcopters for delivering drugs...).

I am in no way referring to a role in AAW, just the ability to track small targets such as criminal drones or whatever may be the target in the future.

- As for why the CEAFAR would be useful in observing quadcopters; the ships could act by tracking (obviously this capability may not exist right now as the CEAFAR capabilities are mostly restricted and unknown to us) and then engaging in EW to either spoof or manipulate the drone into not reaching its destination. Just a reasonable low-cost ability to do this may be desired in the near future and CEAFAR might have the solution.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I understand that for sure, but I'm more referring to the possible role that the radar may enable the Arafura's to expand the scope of the constabulary role that may include tracking small drones (such as quadcopters for delivering drugs...).

I am in no way referring to a role in AAW, just the ability to track small targets such as criminal drones or whatever may be the target in the future.

- As for why the CEAFAR would be useful in observing quadcopters; the ships could act by tracking (obviously this capability may not exist right now as the CEAFAR capabilities are mostly restricted and unknown to us) and then engaging in EW to either spoof or manipulate the drone into not reaching its destination. Just a reasonable low-cost ability to do this may be desired in the near future and CEAFAR might have the solution.
Just remember that all of this will come down to a cost benefit ratio and whether or not it is actually affordable. Australia is officially in recession now with negative growth in the March quarter, before COVID-19 pandemic had any real impact on the economy, so now it comes down to whether or not the CoA can actually afford it. No matter what you think, it won't be cheap and that's after all the development and prototyping.
 

buffy9

Well-Known Member
I understand that for sure, but I'm more referring to the possible role that the radar may enable the Arafura's to expand the scope of the constabulary role that may include tracking small drones (such as quadcopters for delivering drugs...).

I am in no way referring to a role in AAW, just the ability to track small targets such as criminal drones or whatever may be the target in the future.

- As for why the CEAFAR would be useful in observing quadcopters; the ships could act by tracking (obviously this capability may not exist right now as the CEAFAR capabilities are mostly restricted and unknown to us) and then engaging in EW to either spoof or manipulate the drone into not reaching its destination. Just a reasonable low-cost ability to do this may be desired in the near future and CEAFAR might have the solution.
I don't believe quadcopters are going to be found out to sea or delivering drugs into/out of North Australia. Even if the drones were autonomous and operating OTH, it's unlikely there is any with a large enough battery to move between West Timor and Tiwi Island. A larger fixed wing delivery drone (think ScanEagle) may be able to do it, but it is not going to be very profitable and there are other sensors in the network to detect it.
 

Hazdog

Member
I don't believe quadcopters are going to be found out to sea or delivering drugs into/out of North Australia. Even if the drones were autonomous and operating OTH, it's unlikely there is any with a large enough battery to move between West Timor and Tiwi Island. A larger fixed wing delivery drone (think ScanEagle) may be able to do it, but it is not going to be very profitable and there are other sensors in the network to detect it.
@buffy9 and @ngatimozart,

I understand both sentiments provided, but consider the narco subs, in retrospect the technique seems relatively logical, but before that, it would be unlikely to have predicted such a technology. We cannot predict what medium will be transported nor the vehicle that transports the medium, but it is more likely than not, that a capability to act as I early outlined would be very favourable if not vital in the future.

Considering the economic impact of the current virus; I'd suggest that it may be likely that growing any defence capability from within Australia would be very attractive to the Coalition right now.

The sentiment within Australia varies a little on spending, but I am almost certain that there exists bipartisan support for Australian jobs and capability.
 

Hazdog

Member
To save later confusion and to clarify the topic; these are the 9 recommendations for the OPV's from Dr Marcus Hellyer

"Recommendation 1
Increase the number of Arafura-class OPVs to be acquired through project SEA 1180 from 12 to 18 and accelerate their delivery to two vessels per year.

Recommendation 2
Develop variants of the OPVs equipped with appropriate mixes of sensors, weapons and command and communications systems, so that they can contribute to maritime and amphibious operating concepts employing distributed lethality, with (indicatively) six each of the following variants:

An anti-surface warfare variant
An ASW Variant
An air warfare variant

Recommendation 3

Install an appropriately scaled version of CEA Technologies’ active electronically scanned array radar on the OPV fleet so that it can effectively contribute to maritime operating concepts employing distributed lethality.

Recommendation 4
Equip the variants of the OPV fleet with appropriate mixes of unmanned and autonomous systems so that it can effectively contribute to maritime and amphibious operating concepts employing distributed lethality.

Recommendation 5
Declare that there is a sovereign requirement for an Australian common control system that will:
- standardise control of unmanned and autonomous systems
- facilitate the integration of Australian-developed unmanned and autonomous systems into the combat cloud
- allow for military commanders to rapidly develop multiple courses of action employing all available manned and unmanned systems.

Recommendation 6
Use the OPV hull as the basis of the future mine warfare and military hydrography fleets (in addition to the 18 vessels in Recommendation 1).

Recommendation 7
Ensure that the basing and operating strategy for the enhanced OPV fleet supports extended rotations of squadrons of OPVs through Southeast Asia and the South Pacific to reinforce partnerships, develop interoperability and demonstrate greater presence and deterrence.

Recommendation 8
Increase the funding for Defence’s innovation programs (the Next Generation Technologies Fund and the Innovation Hub) to at least 1% of Defence’s total budget or, indicatively, $400 million per year.

Recommendation 9
Provide an immediate stimulus and greater financial security to Australia’s research universities and high-tech sector by using the funding in Recommendation 8 to:
- fund innovation proposals for defence technology that were assessed as worthy but for which there was previously insufficient funding
- provide guarantees of ongoing funding to the most promising R&D proposals (provided developmental milestones are met), allowing universities and high-tech small-to-medium enterprises to provide greater certainty of employment and research funding to staff."


I'd like to say that I support each one of these recommendations and would like to see them implemented. As such, I'd like to open the floor as to why each specifically would not work.

I'd like to suggest that the mods not consider this in fantasy land as it is being discussed in the context of the current shifting strategic outlook.
 

buffy9

Well-Known Member
To save later confusion and to clarify the topic; these are the 9 recommendations for the OPV's from Dr Marcus Hellyer

"Recommendation 1
Increase the number of Arafura-class OPVs to be acquired through project SEA 1180 from 12 to 18 and accelerate their delivery to two vessels per year.

Recommendation 2
Develop variants of the OPVs equipped with appropriate mixes of sensors, weapons and command and communications systems, so that they can contribute to maritime and amphibious operating concepts employing distributed lethality, with (indicatively) six each of the following variants:

An anti-surface warfare variant
An ASW Variant
An air warfare variant

Recommendation 3

Install an appropriately scaled version of CEA Technologies’ active electronically scanned array radar on the OPV fleet so that it can effectively contribute to maritime operating concepts employing distributed lethality.

Recommendation 4
Equip the variants of the OPV fleet with appropriate mixes of unmanned and autonomous systems so that it can effectively contribute to maritime and amphibious operating concepts employing distributed lethality.

Recommendation 5
Declare that there is a sovereign requirement for an Australian common control system that will:
- standardise control of unmanned and autonomous systems
- facilitate the integration of Australian-developed unmanned and autonomous systems into the combat cloud
- allow for military commanders to rapidly develop multiple courses of action employing all available manned and unmanned systems.

Recommendation 6
Use the OPV hull as the basis of the future mine warfare and military hydrography fleets (in addition to the 18 vessels in Recommendation 1).

Recommendation 7
Ensure that the basing and operating strategy for the enhanced OPV fleet supports extended rotations of squadrons of OPVs through Southeast Asia and the South Pacific to reinforce partnerships, develop interoperability and demonstrate greater presence and deterrence.

Recommendation 8
Increase the funding for Defence’s innovation programs (the Next Generation Technologies Fund and the Innovation Hub) to at least 1% of Defence’s total budget or, indicatively, $400 million per year.

Recommendation 9
Provide an immediate stimulus and greater financial security to Australia’s research universities and high-tech sector by using the funding in Recommendation 8 to:
- fund innovation proposals for defence technology that were assessed as worthy but for which there was previously insufficient funding
- provide guarantees of ongoing funding to the most promising R&D proposals (provided developmental milestones are met), allowing universities and high-tech small-to-medium enterprises to provide greater certainty of employment and research funding to staff."


I'd like to say that I support each one of these recommendations and would like to see them implemented. As such, I'd like to open the floor as to why each specifically would not work.

I'd like to suggest that the mods not consider this in fantasy land as it is being discussed in the context of the current shifting strategic outlook.
Will take a gander at each recommendation.

1. Increasing the number of vessels and the tempo at which they are brought into service is not cheap. Yes there will be some run off, as what occurs with industry, but it is still coming at the expense of other things at a time of recession following major stimulus packages.

2. The OPVs are not warfighting vessels. They are from what I can tell a "lessons learned" improvement over the ACPBs, a more resilient and capable platform that can stay at sea for longer in worse conditions - with the added size creating the possibility of fulfilling other minor roles. These vessels are not corvettes, they are not going to be taking on submarines, ships, aircraft or systems designed to take down assets larger and more capable than anything they can bring to the table - no matter how well modified. If your intention is to use them in a role akin to the Bathurst-class, note the Bathurst-class was never designed for high-end warfighting.

3. I've stated before that I believe it is uneconomic to install such radar when operating in a minor warfighting or constabulary role. In terms of distributed lethality the key question is whether the RAN or ADF is looking to adopt the model itself. It is on my reading list with not enough known for my own good, though I have doubts modified OPVs are the best way to achieve it in a high-end/high-intensity setting.

4. There has been prior consideration to utilising the OPVs or modified variants for MIW. Indeed the platform can host a wider array of unmanned platforms, more than anything other minor vessels the RAN possesses could do. There is merit here - though attempting to clear areas in a high-intensity setting from a lower-end platform is a risky option. I am not a MIW expert however.

5. Can you elaborate on a 'common control system?' There are many means and methods of control. Also I do not believe Australia possesses a 'combat cloud.'

6. The current government did note their promise to build three modified OPV hulls for such tasks in WA. @StingrayOZ beat me to the link.

7. Forward deploying units into SEA ensures a presence though is logistically and operationally taxing. Doing so also requires the understanding and cooperation of countries involved - something they may not be willing to do if it is going to anger neighbours or imply they cannot handle their own security.

8. Or better yet, increase R&D and involve DST more directly with defence, IMHO. Such grants could be useful in generating unique and surprisingly good (as is the intention) technologies, though it is a big investment that would again occur at a time of recession as defence also seeks to maintain its other capabilities. The services may also not like a drop in funding in favour of risky technology funding, also.

9. I would be all for it - if we were not in a recession. As much as I would love for defence to receive greater funding and Australia greater security independence, the unfortunate reality is that cuts are going to happen - it comes down to not cutting critical capabilities.
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hellyer is an economist, so some of his ideas are from economic or business idea rather than engineering point of view. Some of them are not possible or not sensible.
  • Recommendations 1 -2. What is an anti-warfare OPV? Building 36 (18 + (3 x 6)) = 36 new ships is quite an ask, particularly if you want "anti-surface" and "anti-air". Is it viable to have an anti-surface and anti-air ship barely able to make it to 20kts? Crewing would be prohibitive. We could effectively double our Hunter class to 18 or our submarines to 24 with similar crewing numbers/cost.
  • Recommendation 6 A minehunting variation or new design is already ear marked (https://adbr.com.au/pm-announces-new-mine-warfare-and-hydrographic-survey-vessels/) as is a new survey ship. He merges this as additional ships. So he is really talking about WA building 18 + 18 + 3 = 39 ships when they haven't yet built the first OPV. 40 ships being built at WA is quite a number. IMO is pretty unrealistic.
  • Recommendation 3. Of his suggestions, IMO the scaled Ceafar IMO would be interesting. It would be advantageous IMO to have X and S band on the OPV. There is a requirement to have both S and X band on vessels larger than 3000t, X band has limitation in fog and rain such as in the tropics, S band is also far superior for search/track and discrimination at range. Ceafar is already compatible with 9lv, and the additional Ceafar features (like IFF and communications etc) IMO would be useful. Also fitment to a smaller ship is more likely to help with export potential to regional allies who operate similar smaller ships in the 2000-4000 class (specifically, Singapore, New Zealand, etc). It would make them a superior OPV platform able to operate in all weather and all conditions. Costs would be ~ a few million. No additional man power. Lower maintenance. lower upgrade and support costs. Better availability. Local build and support. It is probably worthy of further study to see viability cost/benefit analysis, compared to no S band or regular COTS S band sets being installed.
  • Recommendation 4-5 are vague. Not sure what armed autonomous system he is referring to. I assume SAAB are very much interested in integrating unmanned systems into the combat and sensor systems. The OPV platforms however are limited in what they can operate. With no hangar they won't be flying large armed drones.
  • 7 is already happening and there is already a clear plan for this.
  • 8-9 is just general calls for more secure funding for R&D not really RAN related.
While the government may be interested in some stimulus for defence industry, it all going to WA to build 3 times as many ships as currently committed seems, lop sided. Even if agreed, the mix seems off, and the platform is not suitable for the roles identified.

While Australia has been affected by the global recession, it has result in a 0.25% drop in march (bush fires, drought, floods, start of covid19). Compare that to the US which suffered a 5% drop in the same period(!). While the June quarter is expected to be much worse, Australia hasn't bankrupted itself. I would not expect any of the major defence projects to be significantly affected negatively in any way. These are key employers, and much work was designed around being sustainable. Australia is likely to bounce very quickly back from COVID19, with some states and territories not reporting any COVID19 cases for a month or more and more importantly proven itself able to handle local breakouts.

Hellyer also penned another piece on Defence budget in the age of COVID19

Which indicates that defence may struggle to spend all of its budget for this yet, which has probably spurred him to write this on the OPV's. I'm not sure I believe in his analysis that Defence will struggle to spend its budget. I don't think moving forward the F-35A buy is a good idea (to burn money). But the bi-partisan support for defence projects and having them protected by varying GDP figures was argued and decided years ago.

 

buffy9

Well-Known Member
@buffy9 and @ngatimozart,

I understand both sentiments provided, but consider the narco subs, in retrospect the technique seems relatively logical, but before that, it would be unlikely to have predicted such a technology. We cannot predict what medium will be transported nor the vehicle that transports the medium, but it is more likely than not, that a capability to act as I early outlined would be very favourable if not vital in the future.

Considering the economic impact of the current virus; I'd suggest that it may be likely that growing any defence capability from within Australia would be very attractive to the Coalition right now.

The sentiment within Australia varies a little on spending, but I am almost certain that there exists bipartisan support for Australian jobs and capability.
I agree anticipating the future is a fools errand - though anticipating the likely and most dangerous futures is a key part of planning. Assuming there is profits to be gained from transporting drugs to North Australia and engaging with gangs to distribute the product further South - is it more economical to do so via drone, easily detected by radar and carrying a limited payload, or is it more economical to do it via the human method? The Torres Strait is certainly a choke point where I could see smuggling occur with 4WD and banana boat piloting smugglers being key conduits. Of course they would have to transport these drugs through Indonesia - where drug smuggling carries the death penalty. A more efficient method of smuggling drugs appears to be slipping it through customs as packaging or luggage. Better yet, skip the middle man and produce it locally - as seen with ice. I won't comment further, but muling drugs over to Australia is less of an issue than muling other cargo, which has been of greater importance to the RAN in the past two decades...

There is bipartisan support for defence as gleamed from this forum. Government and opposition both appear to take defences advise as highly regarded and informed. Therefore, if defence views it as enough of a priority to sacrifice other projects from its funding, it may well get the go ahead.

Posted before Stingray's post. Need to start replying on laptop instead of phone, someone is always making good points as I'm typing.
 
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Hazdog

Member
Hellyer is an economist, so some of his ideas are from economic or business idea rather than engineering point of view. Some of them are not possible or not sensible.
  • Recommendations 1 -2. What is an anti-warfare OPV? Building 36 (18 + (3 x 6)) = 36 new ships is quite an ask, particularly if you want "anti-surface" and "anti-air". Is it viable to have an anti-surface and anti-air ship barely able to make it to 20kts? Crewing would be prohibitive. We could effectively double our Hunter class to 18 or our submarines to 24 with similar crewing numbers/cost.
  • Recommendation 6 A minehunting variation or new design is already ear marked (PM announces new mine warfare and hydrographic survey vessels – ADBR) as is a new survey ship. He merges this as additional ships. So he is really talking about WA building 18 + 18 + 3 = 39 ships when they haven't yet built the first OPV. 40 ships being built at WA is quite a number. IMO is pretty unrealistic.
  • Recommendation 3. Of his suggestions, IMO the scaled Ceafar IMO would be interesting. It would be advantageous IMO to have X and S band on the OPV. There is a requirement to have both S and X band on vessels larger than 3000t, X band has limitation in fog and rain such as in the tropics, S band is also far superior for search/track and discrimination at range. Ceafar is already compatible with 9lv, and the additional Ceafar features (like IFF and communications etc) IMO would be useful. Also fitment to a smaller ship is more likely to help with export potential to regional allies who operate similar smaller ships in the 2000-4000 class (specifically, Singapore, New Zealand, etc). It would make them a superior OPV platform able to operate in all weather and all conditions. Costs would be ~ a few million. No additional man power. Lower maintenance. lower upgrade and support costs. Better availability. Local build and support. It is probably worthy of further study to see viability cost/benefit analysis, compared to no S band or regular COTS S band sets being installed.
  • Recommendation 4-5 are vague. Not sure what armed autonomous system he is referring to. I assume SAAB are very much interested in integrating unmanned systems into the combat and sensor systems. The OPV platforms however are limited in what they can operate. With no hangar they won't be flying large armed drones.
  • 7 is already happening and there is already a clear plan for this.
  • 8-9 is just general calls for more secure funding for R&D not really RAN related.
While the government may be interested in some stimulus for defence industry, it all going to WA to build 3 times as many ships as currently committed seems, lop sided. Even if agreed, the mix seems off, and the platform is not suitable for the roles identified.

While Australia has been affected by the global recession, it has result in a 0.25% drop in march (bush fires, drought, floods, start of covid19). Compare that to the US which suffered a 5% drop in the same period(!). While the June quarter is expected to be much worse, Australia hasn't bankrupted itself. I would not expect any of the major defence projects to be significantly affected negatively in any way. These are key employers, and much work was designed around being sustainable. Australia is likely to bounce very quickly back from COVID19, with some states and territories not reporting any COVID19 cases for a month or more and more importantly proven itself able to handle local breakouts.

Hellyer also penned another piece on Defence budget in the age of COVID19

Which indicates that defence may struggle to spend all of its budget for this yet, which has probably spurred him to write this on the OPV's. I'm not sure I believe in his analysis that Defence will struggle to spend its budget. I don't think moving forward the F-35A buy is a good idea (to burn money). But the bi-partisan support for defence projects and having them protected by varying GDP figures was argued and decided years ago.

I understand and appreciate your comments, but I believe you may have misread Hellyer's comments; he has not suggested a total of 39 OPV's, rather: "Currently, three OPVs are under construction. The first is to be delivered in late 2021, with a subsequent drumbeat of one vessel every nine months.36 In order to provide an economic stimulus and deliver capability sooner, an additional production line could be established immediately to accelerate the drumbeat to one vessel every six months. That would double the number of the Navy’s combat vessels by 2027 and result in a combined fleet of 29 Hobart-class destroyers, Anzac-class frigates and OPVs in service by 2030 (not counting the mine warfare / hydrographic variants), before the first future frigate is operational." (page 27)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
To save later confusion and to clarify the topic; these are the 9 recommendations for the OPV's from Dr Marcus Hellyer

"Recommendation 1
Increase the number of Arafura-class OPVs to be acquired through project SEA 1180 from 12 to 18 and accelerate their delivery to two vessels per year.

Recommendation 2
Develop variants of the OPVs equipped with appropriate mixes of sensors, weapons and command and communications systems, so that they can contribute to maritime and amphibious operating concepts employing distributed lethality, with (indicatively) six each of the following variants:

An anti-surface warfare variant
An ASW Variant
An air warfare variant

Recommendation 3

Install an appropriately scaled version of CEA Technologies’ active electronically scanned array radar on the OPV fleet so that it can effectively contribute to maritime operating concepts employing distributed lethality.

Recommendation 4
Equip the variants of the OPV fleet with appropriate mixes of unmanned and autonomous systems so that it can effectively contribute to maritime and amphibious operating concepts employing distributed lethality.

Recommendation 5
Declare that there is a sovereign requirement for an Australian common control system that will:
- standardise control of unmanned and autonomous systems
- facilitate the integration of Australian-developed unmanned and autonomous systems into the combat cloud
- allow for military commanders to rapidly develop multiple courses of action employing all available manned and unmanned systems.

Recommendation 6
Use the OPV hull as the basis of the future mine warfare and military hydrography fleets (in addition to the 18 vessels in Recommendation 1).

Recommendation 7
Ensure that the basing and operating strategy for the enhanced OPV fleet supports extended rotations of squadrons of OPVs through Southeast Asia and the South Pacific to reinforce partnerships, develop interoperability and demonstrate greater presence and deterrence.

Recommendation 8
Increase the funding for Defence’s innovation programs (the Next Generation Technologies Fund and the Innovation Hub) to at least 1% of Defence’s total budget or, indicatively, $400 million per year.

Recommendation 9
Provide an immediate stimulus and greater financial security to Australia’s research universities and high-tech sector by using the funding in Recommendation 8 to:
- fund innovation proposals for defence technology that were assessed as worthy but for which there was previously insufficient funding
- provide guarantees of ongoing funding to the most promising R&D proposals (provided developmental milestones are met), allowing universities and high-tech small-to-medium enterprises to provide greater certainty of employment and research funding to staff."


I'd like to say that I support each one of these recommendations and would like to see them implemented. As such, I'd like to open the floor as to why each specifically would not work.

I'd like to suggest that the mods not consider this in fantasy land as it is being discussed in the context of the current shifting strategic outlook.
In effect, it would seem the good doctor is advocating for either turning the OPV's into combatants, or taking the design base and developing a combatant variant. Alongside this, there seems to be advocacy for both increasing the drumbeat and numbers for OPV and/or OCV (since an upgunned OPV design still will not be quite the same as a purpose-designed corvette). To me, this smacks of the good idea fairy having visited someone who either does not know what they are about, or have ignored likely issues which would conflict with the idea being pushed.

Increasing both the drumbeat and number of vessels being built would effectively torpedo the current national shipbuilding plan. There would be sunk costs involved in expanding both the infrastructure and workforce required to accelerate the shipbuilding drumbeat, and in less than a decade that workforce and associated infrastructure will start idling. As I understand it, the national shipbuilding plan has factored that in, for the currently sized workforce and existing infrastructure. Expanding both would likely cause either greater overall costs for the national shipbuilding plan, assuming Australia wishes to maintain such a national capability, or there would again be an element of the valley of death...

Secondly, a ~50% increase in OPV-sized vessels in the RAN would require an additional injection of funding and likely fairly substantial, even more so if the base design had to be greatly changed to accommodate more combat capabilities. This raises the spectre of whether or not the additional capabilities provided are worth the costs associated. Thirdly, an extra six vessels would require both additional crews, as well as support infrastructure at RAN bases.

As for the notion of fitting CEAFAR, I still feel the only logical reasons to do so would be due to a lower cost for the systems than a conventional rotating radar transceiver, or to achieve commonality in radar systems training across the RAN for both operators and maintainers. Capability-wise, I just do not see the value aboard a vessel like an OPV.

With regards to the idea of possibly being used to detect/track and possibly even EA small drones like quad copters, there are a bunch of questions which would need answers for and consideration, some of which others have already touched on, while other issues have not been.

The first is, with a RAN OPV operating in open ocean, most likely within the confines of Australia's EEZ claims, where is the launch point for the hypothetical small drone and where is the planned destination? If the launch point is from Indonesia, Timor Leste, PNG or one of the S. Pacific islands, it would be very unlikely that a small, low flying drone would have the range to actually reach Australian territory considering that would be both over the horizon and potentially at least a few hundred km's. Even if the launch point was a ship at sea, unless the vessel was within sight of land it would still be an over the horizon flight which such small drones are not really designed for. Relating to the whole over the horizon idea, where is the drone pilot located, and what sort of command link exists between the drone pilot and drone, to enable over the horizon flight? Or is the expectation that the flight plan would be pre-programmed, autonomous and likely one way? Even with autonomous flight, that range is still going to be an issue. The small commercial drones I am familiar with typically have a max flight time of ~30 minutes, with very little in terms of available payload. When I looked into the Wings drone delivery service, the max range (round trip distance) was 20 km, and max payload was 1.5 kg with a speed of 113 kph. To get anything significantly greater in terms of range, and/or payload then one it talking about a significantly bigger bird, something likely at least the size of a Scaneagle. Realistically, I would be much more comfortable leaving the detection and tracking of aerial intrusions into Australian airspace to the RAAF, rather than trying to rely upon a possible 'Hail Mary' detection by an OPV that was in the right place, at the right time. After all, even with a radar array like CEAFAR, a ship would need to be close enough to an aerial contact that the radar horizon does not block detection. Assuming a drone flight altitude of 45 m, and ~30 m mast height, the detecting OPV would need to be within 50 km. The question would still remain whether or not the extra effort and costs associated with fitting something like CEAFAR would provide a sufficiently greater capability than a slower scanning air search radar like the SPS-49.

Lastly, since this area of discussion has been about detecting unmanned aerial vehicles by RAN OPV's on patrol duties in the Australian EEZ, what rights/powers does Australia have to deal with them? Once an aircraft enters Australian airspace, then there is no question about Australian authority, However, until an aircraft crosses the 12 n mile limit, it is flying in international airspace, and I am unaware of any sort of international agreement or treaty which would be comparable to UNCLOS but covering international airspace instead of international waters.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The OPV is to be fitted with the Terma Scanter 6002 radar as its primary surveillance radar, which is perfectly adequate for its intended purpose. While it’s X band, it has good all weather performance and clutter suppression. Off the top of my head I can’t be sure whether or not it has a synthetic mode but I seem to remember it does.
 
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hairyman

Active Member
If we were to build an extra six OPV's as suggested, and fit them with CEA, I cant see enough benefit unless the additional OPV's were also fitted with ESSM or similar. They ccould then join the main fleet with duties other than Constable type roles. If a larger hull was required, Lurssen as well as the 1800 that we are building, also have a 1900 and a 2100 OPV, which I would suggest would fit the bill nicely, without tryimg to extend the 1800.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Can't help but feel that too much emphasis is placed on the OPV itself instead of the sort of systems that will operate off it. The OPV will probably operate S-100 Camcopters. If selected for the MCM role it will operate UUVs such as the double eagle. Further down the track Australia will no doubt be looking at even more sophisticated systems and the OPVs may well be the best platform to operate them from.

In terms of technology, I think we are at that awkward period where we are still reliant on manned systems but there is an inevitability that automated systems will end superseding most of them. When I look at the new Attack class subs and Hunter frigates I find myself wondering whether or not they will be the last of their kind ... at least for the RAN.

The future may well be simple cheap ships such as the Arafura deploying sophisticated unmanned vehicles. Given possible delays in programs such as the Attack class, it wouldn't surprise me if the RAN started looking at systems like this to fill the gap.


As for money ... well, Hellyer seemed to imply that the RAN could pay for this by sacrificing one of its new subs or frigates.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Can't help but feel that too much emphasis is placed on the OPV itself instead of the sort of systems that will operate off it. The OPV will probably operate S-100 Camcopters. If selected for the MCM role it will operate UUVs such as the double eagle. Further down the track Australia will no doubt be looking at even more sophisticated systems and the OPVs may well be the best platform to operate them from.

In terms of technology, I think we are at that awkward period where we are still reliant on manned systems but there is an inevitability that automated systems will end superseding most of them. When I look at the new Attack class subs and Hunter frigates I find myself wondering whether or not they will be the last of their kind ... at least for the RAN.

The future may well be simple cheap ships such as the Arafura deploying sophisticated unmanned vehicles. Given possible delays in programs such as the Attack class, it wouldn't surprise me if the RAN started looking at systems like this to fill the gap.


As for money ... well, Hellyer seemed to imply that the RAN could pay for this by sacrificing one of its new subs or frigates.
The government determined that the Arafura Class OPV will be just that - an OPV, not a FFG, DDG, or BB. If they wanted any of those they would of acquired them, so there's no point in harping on about it. It's a done deal as far as the government is concerned and they are the ones who pay the bills. Why in hell would the RAN sacrifice an Attack Class Sub or Hunter class FFG for something that would be such a shitty deal in comparison offering far less capability. I should ban you for even suggesting something so bloody stupid, but I can't. It's not in the rules and it would be malicious anyway. So no pudding tonight for both of us. :p

I agree that in the future there may be room for USVs and UUVs in the RAN fleet, but that's the future and what form those vessels take is an unknown and not open for discussion here. IF the RAN and govt had stuck with or returned to the OCV concept, then a lot of this discussion would've been pertinent, but they haven't and that concept has been deep sixed.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The government determined that the Arafura Class OPV will be just that - an OPV, not a FFG, DDG, or BB. If they wanted any of those they would of acquired them, so there's no point in harping on about it. It's a done deal as far as the government is concerned and they are the ones who pay the bills. Why in hell would the RAN sacrifice an Attack Class Sub or Hunter class FFG for something that would be such a shitty deal in comparison offering far less capability. I should ban you for even suggesting something so bloody stupid, but I can't. It's not in the rules and it would be malicious anyway. So no pudding tonight for both of us. :p

I agree that in the future there may be room for USVs and UUVs in the RAN fleet, but that's the future and what form those vessels take is an unknown and not open for discussion here. IF the RAN and govt had stuck with or returned to the OCV concept, then a lot of this discussion would've been pertinent, but they haven't and that concept has been deep sixed.
Don't blame the messenger ... Hellyer said it ... ban him.

Money, of course is the issue. It occurs to me that when the government announced that the big-ticket items from the last defence paper had all been costed and put in place a 25 year plan they left very little meat on the bone for any new programs that might arise in the meantime. I really can't see the navy waiting 20 or more years for money to become available for new automated systems. Hard choices will need to be made. Choices made even harder now that the economy is in the dumpster.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Don't blame the messenger ... Hellyer said it ... ban him.

Money, of course is the issue. It occurs to me that when the government announced that the big-ticket items from the last defence paper had all been costed and put in place a 25 year plan they left very little meat on the bone for any new programs that might arise in the meantime. I really can't see the navy waiting 20 or more years for money to become available for new automated systems. Hard choices will need to be made. Choices made even harder now that the economy is in the dumpster.
When the government put in place the defence white paper and IIP, they most certainly disn't anticipate waiting to the end of a 25 year plan to commission another one, so the Navy won't be waiting 20 years, just until the next DWP and the next and the next. New DWPs don't need to remove the funding of ongoing projects so the Hunter frigate and Attack sub project can move along happilly, on a spiral development plan adding whatever capability is required from time to time and there can *still* be new allocations for other kit which are not currently funded.

This is something that grinds my gears when I read Rex Patrick whinging, or that "Journalist" from Canberra-IQ (edit: Simon Grose) questioning the Chief Defence Scientist at the Press Club last week. Neither seems to understand that long engineering projects evolve or that anything newly invented after the contract was signed can (albeit at a cost) be added or they wouldn't be claiming that the last of them would be 40 years out of date before they're launched. Fortunately Professor Monro was kind enough to (re)explain the role of people like the DSTO and the concept of tranches instead of awarding dunce caps and a whack with her cello.

oldsig
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
The government determined that the Arafura Class OPV will be just that - an OPV, not a FFG, DDG, or BB. If they wanted any of those they would of acquired them, so there's no point in harping on about it. It's a done deal as far as the government is concerned and they are the ones who pay the bills. Why in hell would the RAN sacrifice an Attack Class Sub or Hunter class FFG for something that would be such a shitty deal in comparison offering far less capability. I should ban you for even suggesting something so bloody stupid, but I can't. It's not in the rules and it would be malicious anyway. So no pudding tonight for both of us. :p

I agree that in the future there may be room for USVs and UUVs in the RAN fleet, but that's the future and what form those vessels take is an unknown and not open for discussion here. IF the RAN and govt had stuck with or returned to the OCV concept, then a lot of this discussion would've been pertinent, but they haven't and that concept has been deep sixed.
The OPV subject is in part about time and potential.
The world has changed in a big way in four years and probably not for the better.
The Hunter Class are a decade away at best, leaving us with pretty much what we have- 11 majors supporting or being supported by 5 amphibious / supply ships.
Of the majors the ANZAC's are not destroyers.......No CIWS, No medium cannon, No Towed array.Single helicopter, Some impressive attributes squeezed out of a hull of limitation......they are not in the class of the new Hunters.
We know their history and acknowledge they are what they are...........................................probably not what we should of got 20 years ago!!!!
By some standards they still looked good in 2016.
Suggest not now and for myself not then either.
So whats the quick fix.
The ANZAC's are maxed out so what of the rest of the fleet.
Where lies the best potential.
Probably the OPV's
Like the ANZAC's they will only have so much room for growth ,but suggest this conversation is exploring that potential now rather than waiting
for when its too late.
We get that the OPV's will relieve the Majors from doing the minor stuff for them to conduct the big end business.
Just exploring if the OPV's could cover some of the middle ground stuff as well.

Would a different more capable vessel be better suited for what I intend..............................Absolutely.
But it's not on the shopping list


Regards S



Regards S
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Last time I looked, the ANZACs had a Mark 45 5 inch gun.

The OPVs are 1600 ton vessels. Impressive for what they are designed to do and optimised for those functions; but they are not, and don’t have have the capacity to become, some sort of surface combatant Swiss Army knife. Yes, they have growth capacity to their projected end of life - but that is for capabilities to do their primary functions better in the future (and to allow for such things as multiple coats of paint). And, in a ship of that size it is limited.
 
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