The idea of having a point man about 2 dozen meters or so in front of the section is that he will act as the eyes and ears of the group, spotting possible ambush sites, booby traps and anything else that might bring harm to the rest of the section. Hopefully, he will be able to warn the group before the shoot fest begins. The distance of the scout from the group varies depending on the enviroment.old faithful said:mate you must be joking! in some country you wouldnt see youre scout 20-30m out in front! Dont know youre inf tactics,but i suspect they are similer to ours....we use two scouts. I wouldnt initiate any ambush with just one person in the killing zone....a lone scout,just let him safly through until the main body was in the K zone, and deal with the one man counter attack later
Infantry Tactics in the west
- Thread starter merocaine
- Start date
if youre scout spots the ambush, chances are that it will be too late. Ambush sites are selected on ground of the ambushers choosing. Again, let the scout/point man pass untill the main body enters the killing zone, then initiate the ambush. With claymore mines, and interlocking arcs of fire,MG enfelade and cut off, there will be very few chances to counter the ambush. The scout will be taken by the cut off. Again, ambush sites are selected very carefully.
well, if you're in a jungle environment - then there's no way that you'd have scouts that far forward - you'd lose contact and not be able to see their signals.Pathfinder-X said:
look at the differences between the way the US Army conducted jungle warfare as opposed to the Australian Army in Vietnam - or look at how the poms and malays conduct small platoons in places like Borneo etc....
Does Canada participate in the "Cobra" series of Jungle warfare exercises in Thailand(?) (US sponsored event)
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The actual distance varies according to the enviroment as I said above. In areas with dense vegetation the point man usually keeps about 5 to 10 meters in front.gf0012-aust said:
I'm not too sure if they participate in that exercise. All I know is that the airbornes conducts their jungle training course lasting 2 weeks in Venezuela. We learned a bit of the basics of jungle warfare when I did my BIQ nearly 2 years ago.
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talking about distances the scout/s are placed in front in" meters" really sounds inflexible to me. In close country we would place our scoucts 0ne "visual distance to the front." I know that the Canadians are a very proffesional lot and am sure that the tactics that they use are sound. The only point that im trying to make is that ambushing is the most effective way to kill the ememy. A well planned and executed ambush is bloody murder. The killing ground is selected by intelligence gathering,and recon. It is a trap that is planned to the last detail....includeing the possibility of being countered. PPCLI has very close ties to 3RAR through the battle of Kapyong in Korea. So getting back to the point, the tactic used by the French Forgein Legion of chargeing the ambush while pouring fire towards it is as good as any i suppose!
There's not fixed distance required, but I'm just giving an idea of how things proceed generally. We could walkd down a field in a single column if we wish, but that's probably not the smartest thing to do. Anyways, the best chance at avoid an ambush is by choosing your routes wisely and pay attention to your surroundings. If caught in one, you are unlikely to walk out of it in one piece no matter how well refined your tactics are.old faithful said:
Lujan AusMUR
New Member
Use of a pointman... and flanking of an ambush
:lul G'day guys,
Shouldnt you have the phalanx formation (inverted chevron) with your "Group", point 10m out and a dual scout 10-20m from point? there silent comm is held, scouts are away from "Group" (trying to be a ghost as always), and point is held close...
With CQC contact with scouts, pre-warning is there at a 30M, If an ambush is letting them through may pick-up point at 10m from "Group". And if Visual is out with Scouts/ point, then somwthing is up-wind.
If "Group" is ambushed, breaking frontal contact and covering Point with Smoke, covering/ Supressing fire and if the god's love you Arty and Air, then through strong dicipline using the "emptying rounds tag-team" evasion via to the flank to conduct an outer rim flanking using your centre line, MG digging in, or the flank not manuveuring to resist the rear cut off...
That way IF! your scouts are still out there, can support a complete flank envelope and unit rejoining...
But that is again "---->>IF<<----" its not gone to struth or the crows... :lul
:lul G'day guys,
Shouldnt you have the phalanx formation (inverted chevron) with your "Group", point 10m out and a dual scout 10-20m from point? there silent comm is held, scouts are away from "Group" (trying to be a ghost as always), and point is held close...
With CQC contact with scouts, pre-warning is there at a 30M, If an ambush is letting them through may pick-up point at 10m from "Group". And if Visual is out with Scouts/ point, then somwthing is up-wind.
If "Group" is ambushed, breaking frontal contact and covering Point with Smoke, covering/ Supressing fire and if the god's love you Arty and Air, then through strong dicipline using the "emptying rounds tag-team" evasion via to the flank to conduct an outer rim flanking using your centre line, MG digging in, or the flank not manuveuring to resist the rear cut off...
That way IF! your scouts are still out there, can support a complete flank envelope and unit rejoining...
But that is again "---->>IF<<----" its not gone to struth or the crows... :lul
tomahawk
any of the info ive seen posted on this thread is availiable in any good book shop. Obviously, we dont go into "our bag of tricks" on this site. it started as someone critisizing (my spelling!) the legions tactics, that are loosly called a counter ambush drill. if some one went into detail of how to select an ambush site,occupy it etc,then that would be going to far...
any of the info ive seen posted on this thread is availiable in any good book shop. Obviously, we dont go into "our bag of tricks" on this site. it started as someone critisizing (my spelling!) the legions tactics, that are loosly called a counter ambush drill. if some one went into detail of how to select an ambush site,occupy it etc,then that would be going to far...
or be fed B/S!!!
A lot of extra detail is available open source through various FMS pubs - there's less specifics mentioned in here so far than anything that would be found in an FMS (which are widely available).tomahawk6 said:
A lot of the blokes in here commenting on std drills etc are more than aware of OPSEC issues.
Comments in here are really OSINT and none of the "old soldiers" are giving away anything serious re their craftwork. They're "old and wise" for a reason .... (as opposed to "young and dumb")
we have in the past deleted stuff that has been borderline in detail - so the mods are "sleeping with one eye open".....
Lujan AusMUR
New Member
Hehe, plus anyway Tomo,
Within jest, "our" current enemies, should we say since you cound't say are conventional millitants, would have to improve their weapons marksmanship, grouping and targeting before they could fish out for info.
But then, if the enemy could do that... lets leave it at that they could easy go into our own bookshops and army text and get ahold of tactics anytime...
Within jest, "our" current enemies, should we say since you cound't say are conventional millitants, would have to improve their weapons marksmanship, grouping and targeting before they could fish out for info.
But then, if the enemy could do that... lets leave it at that they could easy go into our own bookshops and army text and get ahold of tactics anytime...
Lujan AusMUR
New Member
lol hehe, actually now thinking of it. Let them come!!!!!
:devil :mad :flaming :splat :ar15
War could easilly be made with a real tactical power, and maybe one that really could be equally dangerous... china, Nth Korea, the Africa are conqured and united, Indo would be a real threat for us buggers....
They have all our tactics, Us is co-op with most of her allies incl Japans millitary reform and that would be hell if we were against them, but luckily they could just remove trade and destroy the economy, China incl.
But the point is that every challanging tactical army would only insight harder and more aspiration tactics as history surely shows.
:devil :mad :flaming :splat :ar15
War could easilly be made with a real tactical power, and maybe one that really could be equally dangerous... china, Nth Korea, the Africa are conqured and united, Indo would be a real threat for us buggers....
They have all our tactics, Us is co-op with most of her allies incl Japans millitary reform and that would be hell if we were against them, but luckily they could just remove trade and destroy the economy, China incl.
But the point is that every challanging tactical army would only insight harder and more aspiration tactics as history surely shows.
marthonman
New Member
I have read the book in question and trainned with a former f.f. legion. He said don't believe everything you read and that the legion was not any better than any other outfit.
Tactics will be dictated by operational circumstances, training and esprit de corp. A unit which has been together longer, is experienced will ultimately use more sophisticated tactics than an untested green outfit with a lot of newer recruits.
The FFL’s tactic of charging the ambush is not new and often taught in militaries where language and communication is an issue. Focusing a sections aggression with a quick ‘ambush right’ command then order to charge is not a complex instruction and ideal if you have highly aggressive troops prepared to mix it up with the enemy bayonets fixed! Speed, aggression, surprise often wins the day.
I have a couple of associates who served in the UK military and FFL, they often comment on the very different attitude to training and doctrine. For example in the latter you are very much a ‘told what to do soldier’, maximum aggression and woe betide if you don’t act post haste when the NCO gives an order. Briefings are limited and the ordinary Legionnaire gets to hear very little about the bigger tactical picture. Map reading for example is not taught in basic training and is the preserve of NCOs’. This is very different to the UK, which puts a lot of emphasis on initiative particularly as many private soldiers these days have remained in education until they are 18 and are pretty savvy.
The FFL’s tactic of charging the ambush is not new and often taught in militaries where language and communication is an issue. Focusing a sections aggression with a quick ‘ambush right’ command then order to charge is not a complex instruction and ideal if you have highly aggressive troops prepared to mix it up with the enemy bayonets fixed! Speed, aggression, surprise often wins the day.
I have a couple of associates who served in the UK military and FFL, they often comment on the very different attitude to training and doctrine. For example in the latter you are very much a ‘told what to do soldier’, maximum aggression and woe betide if you don’t act post haste when the NCO gives an order. Briefings are limited and the ordinary Legionnaire gets to hear very little about the bigger tactical picture. Map reading for example is not taught in basic training and is the preserve of NCOs’. This is very different to the UK, which puts a lot of emphasis on initiative particularly as many private soldiers these days have remained in education until they are 18 and are pretty savvy.
USNavySEAL3310
New Member
I know a little of the Legion's old ways when they used to take in criminals into their ranks so they could fight one last time for their country (obviously criminals with issues regarding the government are not allowed in), or how they took in outcasts from other countries. It used to be all volunteer. You join and fight for a cause, the French cause.
So, they weren't as safety-oriented as modern armies are with their soldiers. It wasn't a traditional fighting force that expected back-up or any kind of support. From what I was told, they rarely worked with the regular French. Thus they were better than a lot of other outfits just because they didn't need support, were loyal to the core, and fought to the death. They never questioned their superiors. It was very strict.
Because of this, I can understand why they would propose and even practice charging an ambushing force.
As many have said, it depends greatly on the terrain you're in, the size of your force, the distance to nearest friendlies, etc. However, I would consider trying to break through and make a gap in the ambushers to break out. If you are encircled, I've heard some teach to turn it into a small CP. Gather the wounded in a safe area, use obstacles for cover and literally dig in to fight off the attackers. I would not think of that as a viable solution to an encirclement as you are still no better off and are merely going to be shot at now in a comfortable setting. Forcing a break out gives you an offensive advantage. Retreating isn't an option and you can't hunker down.
Having said that, I'm assuming it is a well done ambush and you are surrounded or at least surrounded 75% of the way around.
Just my thoughts. What do I know?
So, they weren't as safety-oriented as modern armies are with their soldiers. It wasn't a traditional fighting force that expected back-up or any kind of support. From what I was told, they rarely worked with the regular French. Thus they were better than a lot of other outfits just because they didn't need support, were loyal to the core, and fought to the death. They never questioned their superiors. It was very strict.
Because of this, I can understand why they would propose and even practice charging an ambushing force.
As many have said, it depends greatly on the terrain you're in, the size of your force, the distance to nearest friendlies, etc. However, I would consider trying to break through and make a gap in the ambushers to break out. If you are encircled, I've heard some teach to turn it into a small CP. Gather the wounded in a safe area, use obstacles for cover and literally dig in to fight off the attackers. I would not think of that as a viable solution to an encirclement as you are still no better off and are merely going to be shot at now in a comfortable setting. Forcing a break out gives you an offensive advantage. Retreating isn't an option and you can't hunker down.
Having said that, I'm assuming it is a well done ambush and you are surrounded or at least surrounded 75% of the way around.
Just my thoughts. What do I know?
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it obviously depends on the terrain. in the last lebanon war, 6 man tank hunting teams, caused more havoc for Israeli personal by concealing themselves in bushes and small, hidden bunkers. at least one sniper and the rest with AKs. they got Israelis to pull back to a nearby "building," and then using AT, and RPGs into/around the building. it's public info. the IDF tried to use the night, but ran into the same kind of ambush (their intel didn't know hizbollah had NV too).
there were reports from generals that they failed to use smoke immediately to first conceal than disperse to increase the number of angles of fire until support could arrive. they still had trouble locating underground tunnel openings with everything including drones.
a well thought out ambush on "enemy" territory, doesn't leave the anyone caught in it, with a good chance. they've had a lot of practice in the ME.
there were reports from generals that they failed to use smoke immediately to first conceal than disperse to increase the number of angles of fire until support could arrive. they still had trouble locating underground tunnel openings with everything including drones.
a well thought out ambush on "enemy" territory, doesn't leave the anyone caught in it, with a good chance. they've had a lot of practice in the ME.