Infantry Tactics in the west

[merocaine]

Hi I just read a book by a guy called Bill Paris, he was former british army who joined the French Forigen Legion. Was'ent a great book but it was interesting in a couple of respects.
Although fully trained by the british army he found that the tactical responce to situations was quite different, for example during an ambush the legioners would advance toward the sorce of enemy fire so as the over run the ambush, in the british army the sop would be retreat and flank the ambush.
I was wondering if this kind of thing was isolated or do western armys have quite different tactical doctrines?

 

[Big-E]

Hi I just read a book by a guy called Bill Paris, he was former british army who joined the French Forigen Legion. Was'ent a great book but it was interesting in a couple of respects.
Although fully trained by the british army he found that the tactical responce to situations was quite different, for example during an ambush the legioners would advance toward the sorce of enemy fire so as the over run the ambush, in the british army the sop would be retreat and flank the ambush.
I was wondering if this kind of thing was isolated or do western armys have quite different tactical doctrines?

Rather than engage the US will withdraw then strike it either by MLRS, Paladins or JDAMS. I would hope all countries would have the sense to call in strikes before engaging. The foreign legion model sounds like suicide. The British model sounds like something you do without support.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Hi I just read a book by a guy called Bill Paris, he was former british army who joined the French Forigen Legion. Was'ent a great book but it was interesting in a couple of respects.
Although fully trained by the british army he found that the tactical responce to situations was quite different, for example during an ambush the legioners would advance toward the sorce of enemy fire so as the over run the ambush, in the british army the sop would be retreat and flank the ambush.
I was wondering if this kind of thing was isolated or do western armys have quite different tactical doctrines?

Running towards the ambush is highly illogical for two reasons. One, you usually caught off guard when ambushed and two, the enemy is well prepared for you. No soldier in his right mind would charge into a trap so I think you misinterpreted the author's description.

The procedure to use when caught in an ambush is quite simple, but requires tremendous amount of teamwork to pull off. Have a look at my simple drawing and description.

S1: a group of men runs into an ambush.

S2: the men will fan out into a line facing the enemy and lay down suppressive fire.

S3: half the team provides continuous covering fire while the other half retreats to a safer position.

S4: Upon reaching a certain distance, usually 20 meters at a time, the second half turns around provides cover for the first half of the group.

S5: Continue doing this until contact can be broken, then the group can either change the direction they're going, or wait for support to arrive.

 

[bigjeff]

Running towards the ambush is highly illogical for two reasons. One, you usually caught off guard when ambushed and two, the enemy is well prepared for you. No soldier in his right mind would charge into a trap so I think you misinterpreted the author's description.

The procedure to use when caught in an ambush is quite simple, but requires tremendous amount of teamwork to pull off. Have a look at my simple drawing and description.

S1: a group of men runs into an ambush.

S2: the men will fan out into a line facing the enemy and lay down suppressive fire.

S3: half the team provides continuous covering fire while the other half retreats to a safer position.

S4: Upon reaching a certain distance, usually 20 meters at a time, the second half turns around provides cover for the first half of the group.

S5: Continue doing this until contact can be broken, then the group can either change the direction they're going, or wait for support to arrive.

I hv read the infrantry manual and there are two types of withdrawal.One is alreadi mentioned above while the other one says the team should retreat half of its force alternativeli(member 1&3 , 2&4 as a group) so that the greatest fire coverage can be sustained.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Hi I just read a book by a guy called Bill Paris, he was former british army who joined the French Forigen Legion. Was'ent a great book but it was interesting in a couple of respects.
Although fully trained by the british army he found that the tactical responce to situations was quite different, for example during an ambush the legioners would advance toward the sorce of enemy fire so as the over run the ambush, in the british army the sop would be retreat and flank the ambush.
I was wondering if this kind of thing was isolated or do western armys have quite different tactical doctrines?

That could also explain's the legion's massive casualty lists on operations, as opposed to the modern British Army's. Most professional soldiers are dissmissive of the legion as a fighting force. I knew one or 2 ex legionaires in my time, and they didn't much for me as soldiers....

Anyway, in relation to an ambush there are any number of procedures that can work to get yuo out of that situation, assuming you're referring to section/squad sized formations being ambushed.

Big-E, where are yu supposed to call in this support from? If a professional force has ambushed your force, you will need a significant amount of time to maneuver away from the "fire zone" before you can "call in support", as such you will be forced to make do with what you have. Calling in MLRS or a aircraft to drop a JDAM would be lovely, but assumes you have sufficient time and cover to do so. It also assumes you are a sufficiently "safe distance" to do so.

For a 500lbs JDAM, and friendly's would want to be roughly 100m's away from the drop in most terrain. Bigger bombs = greater safety distance in most terrain.

A tactic we used to use to break contact if ambushed head on, was called colourfully, "the tunnel of love". It basically assumes a line, with the forward soldier firing an entire mag at the enemy. Once the mag is emptied runs to the rear, whilst the next soldier starts firing and so on.

Whilst it sounds slow, a well drilled unit will do it in seconds and can cover hundreds of metres in minutes, sufficient to get out of the immediate danger zone...

Other variations exist, including extended lines if ambushed from the side, including angled versions of the "tunnel of love".

If Old Faithful's around, he may update this, as he's probably a bit more up to date, but a good video (though 30 odd megs in size) of what I'm talking about can be found here:

http://www.filefactory.com/get/v3/h.php?f=22f8b3c9a678e086c1f0e8be&b=8&c=756cea9ec6e4c144

This video is of 1RAR (Royal Australian Regiment) practicing live fire break contact drills whilst on operations in East Timor and provide a good example of what I'm talking about...

 

[old faithful]

If you are in an ambush,a well exicuted ambush, then no matter what tactics are used to counter it, the chances are that you will be in a lot trouble with little or no time to stop and plan a course of action. Infantry sections must react instantly. aaThis where all those drills you hated come into effect. The tunnel of love is the best i know of. Combined with C/S gas and smoke,and buckets of bullets. This needs to be rehursed over and over again,till the section can do it without thinking. In any well planned ambush, you will be lucky to survive. Dont write off the legions tactics as stupid! If you are caught in a linear ambush,and are still breathing,sprinting at the enemy whilst pouring fire at him may get you behind him quickly. I am talking about being caught on a road ,where the ambushers may be only meters from you. This tactic was used in Vietnam by the French,the U.S and you guessed it the Aussies! I believe the tunnel of love was started by the RLI in the Rhoadesian war.

 

[Aussie Digger]

If you are in an ambush,a well exicuted ambush, then no matter what tactics are used to counter it, the chances are that you will be in a lot trouble with little or no time to stop and plan a course of action. Infantry sections must react instantly. aaThis where all those drills you hated come into effect. The tunnel of love is the best i know of. Combined with C/S gas and smoke,and buckets of bullets. This needs to be rehursed over and over again,till the section can do it without thinking. In any well planned ambush, you will be lucky to survive. Dont write off the legions tactics as stupid! If you are caught in a linear ambush,and are still breathing,sprinting at the enemy whilst pouring fire at him may get you behind him quickly. I am talking about being caught on a road ,where the ambushers may be only meters from you. This tactic was used in Vietnam by the French,the U.S and you guessed it the Aussies! I believe the tunnel of love was started by the RLI in the Rhoadesian war.

True, a section (squad) that is ambushed by a well prepared opposing force, is pretty much r**ted. There are things you can do, but there are things you can do if you step on a mine too.

Throw yourself 200m's straight up in the air and spread yourself out over a large area springs to mind...

 

[merocaine]

re: legion

That could also explain's the legion's massive casualty lists on operations, as opposed to the modern British Army's.

what operations would those be and in comparison to what british operations?

Most professional soldiers are dissmissive of the legion as a fighting force. I knew one or 2 ex legionaires in my time, and they didn't much for me as soldiers....

my people get quite jingoistic on this forum i've noticed. A lot of people seem to by into this the french can't/won't fight or build decent kit. Anyway this kind of stuff is neither here nor there, its just a dig thats uncalled for.

cheers

 

[old faithful]

yeah AD,its a bit like "Watch my fall of scout!":haha seriously though,the only members who will survive a good ambush are those not in the killing zone. Then a break contact drill is more appropriate than a counter ambush drill, followed by casevac. fibua (fighting in built up areas) is a bit different. there you may be able to escape and take action with arty etc to help. Main reason being these days you will mostly come up against an enemy who (thank goodness) is not really well trained in ambushing tech.

 

[Aussie Digger]

what operations would those be and in comparison to what british operations?



my people get quite jingoistic on this forum i've noticed. A lot of people seem to by into this the french can't/won't fight or build decent kit. Anyway this kind of stuff is neither here nor there, its just a dig thats uncalled for.

cheers

No, it's an opinion based on ACTUAL personal experience, something which is lacking in many opinions hereabouts. I've had soldiers I've worked with in the Australian Army who were ex-legionaires. They were NOT great soldiers, despite the Legion mythos.

I have nothing against the legion or any other nations soldiers for that matter. It's hardly a matter of "buying into" that the French won't fight or can't build decent kit though. Mirage fighters have been pretty successful from what I hear. The French fought pretty well at Camerone and Dien Bien Phu, despite both being massacred at both and they certainly fought well in Charlemagne and Napolean's time.

However it is impossible to compare French fighting efforts to British, whilst the French have had more than their fair share of success, it pales in comparision to the British.

Faithful, I agree. Have you seen the FULL video of Zarqawi firing the Minimi LSW recently? The goose couldn't clear a minor stoppage and one of his croney's had to do it for him...

Now he may not have been trained on it, but cocking or racking a weapon is the most basic part of a stoppage drill on ANY weapon. Ignorance of this, displays a VERY poor understanding of weapons handling, and he is portrayed as such a threat...

Imagine the situation if the terrorists knew how to use their weapons PROPERLY... :mad3

 

[merocaine]

However it is impossible to compare French fighting efforts to British, whilst the French have had more than their fair share of success, it pales in comparision to the British.

Back it up man!!!! am i just to take your word for it?

this is a good antidote to all your jingos out there very funny articles

http://www.exile.ru/2003-October-02/war_nerd.html

During the vietnam campaigne the legion para's mantained a pace of combat operations unmatched before or since by any western army except the panzers in 45'.
They lost in south east asia, but were fighting in the whole of the indo china region over 8 years and lost 60000 men, legion and other.
They done this with a fraction of the resorces the americans used fighting in the south of vietnam.
The result was the same.
The French went on to win in algeria, fighting the very men they had trained in Algeria.
Do you think the british could have done better?

Besides the Falklands the british havent had to face the kinds of enemy the french have. The Mau Mau insurgency in kenya was primative in the extreme and the mayla chinese were operating outside there home terrotary in the face of a hostile population. Niether came close to algeria or vietnam.

I will say that the brits are better at picking there fights, although it was touch and go in the Falklands.

I'm sticking to post ww2 conflicts here

anyway we all think we got the prettiest wife at home

 

[Aussie Digger]

Back it up man!!!! am i just to take your word for it?

They done this with a fraction of the resorces the americans used fighting in the south of vietnam.
The result was the same.
The French went on to win in algeria, fighting the very men they had trained in Algeria.
Do you think the british could have done better?

Besides the Falklands the british havent had to face the kinds of enemy the french have. The Mau Mau insurgency in kenya was primative in the extreme and the mayla chinese were operating outside there home terrotary in the face of a hostile population. Niether came close to algeria or vietnam.

I will say that the brits are better at picking there fights, although it was touch and go in the Falklands.

I'm sticking to post ww2 conflicts here

anyway we all think we got the prettiest wife at home

So what you're saying essentially is the French were able to lose with less effort???

Nice supporting evidence... :

Oh, and leave out the insults (Jingo's) my good man. They are not especially welcome hereabouts, thankee.

 

[merocaine]

However it is impossible to compare French fighting efforts to British, whilst the French have had more than their fair share of success, it pales in comparision to the British.

i'm waiting

Oh, and leave out the insults (Jingo's) my good man. They are not especially welcome hereabouts, thankee

apologies dude, rush of blood.

Nice supporting evidence...

Just saying post ww2 the french have had to fight for long and harder than any british force, it doesent need that much supporting.

Anyway this thread isent about slagging of other armys it's about tactical responses, you had a go at the Legion for no reason, it was an example differnt responses, not an example of what to do.

p.s the tunnel of love looks awesome

 

[Aussie Digger]

i'm waiting




apologies dude, rush of blood.



Just saying post ww2 the french have had to fight for long and harder than any british force, it doesent need that much supporting.

Anyway this thread isent about slagging of other armys it's about tactical responses, you had a go at the Legion for no reason, it was an example differnt responses, not an example of what to do.

p.s the tunnel of love looks awesome

No worries, disregard my last post, it was meant to be a joke.

As to the "tunnel of love" it IS awesome when performed by a decent crew. it works best for smaller recon formations.

For those Aussies out there, I've actually trained with 6RAR Recon Platoon when I was in Australia's 2/14 Light Horse Regiment and we became added "reconnaissance" to our extremely long title. They were the best section I've ever seen at breaking contact drills and I've seen 2RAR and HQ Platoon, 3 Brigade do some pretty slick stuff as well.

I'd like to see some specwarrie vids of contact drills, I'd imagine SASR and 4RAR would be pretty slick as well. Of course the fancy gats, would make it nicer, but those would be pretty rare anyway I should imagine...

 

[Zaphael]

I really don't think there is a hard and fast rule when it comes to an ambush.

As fierce and as brave as it sounds to charge into an ambush, it may not work ALL the time.

As smart and tactical as it is to pull back and flank around the ambush, the situation and opportunity may not allow a section/squad/platoon to do so.

A section commander/ platoon commander has to think very fast, and assess the situation very quickly. Which direction is the fire coming from? What is the distance? Which direction to retreat?

If the distance is less than 30-40 meters or so, ( we were trained to fight in Jungles, hence we don't usually see more than 50 meters ), an immediate charge towards the enemy might be the best option. Return fire has to be intensive yet controlled since u need to at least try to suppress enemy fire. Especially their automatic weapons. If we get lucky, our charge/assault could push them back, or break into close combat. Either way, we would have turned the tables on the ambush. I prefer close combat.

However, if the enemy is further away. Then the situation is pretty messed up. The distance is probably too far for us to charge down immediately, and we would have most likely be caught in a position with minimal cover. Though attacking via flanking manuevers is still an option, I doubt it may actually work, since the enemy prepared this ambush and we've walked right into the kill zone. Immediate action in this kinda scenario would be smoke. Lots of it. And retreat immediately.

Chances are the enemy would have another cutting force to prevent the "retrogade" (so we call it) and we would probably have to make another quick decision whether to charge them down, or to retrogade.

The chance of surviving a properly laid ambush is low. No matter what. An exception would be that we are being sent on purpose to walk into an ambush. Part of some platoon or company level ops perhaps. That would probably mean, we would be well supported to retrogade or would have immediate support upon contact.

 

[buschy]

my people get quite jingoistic on this forum i've noticed. A lot of people seem to by into this the french can't/won't fight or build decent kit. Anyway this kind of stuff is neither here nor there, its just a dig thats uncalled for.

its not that they cant or wont fight, one of the bravesst men i know was french, they just have a bad habit of losing all the time(no disrespect intended)

oh, and on the matter of what to d if your caught in an ambush, situations can change rapidly and therefore there should be know set way of dealing with this but the commander should have the ability to adapt his tactics to the changing conditions:gun i.e the last time i was doing contact drills we'd got into our extended file when our mg's got suppressed by opposing fire. doctrine dictates that mg's should be the first to advance but we couldnt but were told to anyway. needless to say the section was wiped out due to the lack of suppressive fire to cover the break contact.

 

[oldsoak]

A properly set up and executed ambush is practically impossible to get out of. Everything will be planned to ensure your demise. Pulling back or going forward means you hit the cut off groups. Charging the enemy ( if you can ) may be the best bet just to break through his ambush line. A folorn hope ? Pretty much.
A snap ambush , ie one set up on the spur of the moment you might be able to withdraw and flank as well as fight through. A lot depends on cover, terrain etc.
The "Tunnel of love" sounds very much like what I was taught in withdrawing a patrol from from contact to the front.

 

[old faithful]

spot on old soak! tunnel of love is a break contact drill! good if you can use it,however,in an ambush,you probably wont be able to much but bleed!

 

[Pathfinder-X]

spot on old soak! tunnel of love is a break contact drill! good if you can use it,however,in an ambush,you probably wont be able to much but bleed!

That's why you should always place a scout 20 to 30 meters in front of the group in case things go south. Sure the poor bastard is going to get greased first, but then it will give rest of the section a fighting chance.

 

[old faithful]

mate you must be joking! in some country you wouldnt see youre scout 20-30m out in front! Dont know youre inf tactics,but i suspect they are similer to ours....we use two scouts. I wouldnt initiate any ambush with just one person in the killing zone....a lone scout,just let him safly through until the main body was in the K zone, and deal with the one man counter attack later