Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

From Korea Times:

Indonesia has shortlisted Korea’s T-50 Golden Eagle trainer jet as one of three candidates for its advanced jet trainer requirement, the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) said Monday.

Competitors are Russia’s Yak-130 and the Czech-built L-159B, DAPA officials said. Indonesia is to buy 16 advanced trainer aircraft.
The T-50, jointly developed by Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) and Lockheed Martin of the United States, is an advanced supersonic trainer and considered among the best on the global market.

But the trainer apparently lost out to Italy’s M-346 in contests in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Singapore.
“Indonesia is one of Korea’s key arms partners, and both sides have been satisfied with bilateral cooperation programs,” a DAPA official said. “We’re making the utmost efforts to make the first overseas sale of the T-50.”

Indonesia purchased KAI’s KT-1 basic trainers in 2001 and 2005. It also recently signed a memorandum of understanding on the co-development of the KF-X fighter jet.
Last month, a government delegation visited Indonesia for talks over the export of T-50s, he said. A top official from Seoul’s Ministry of National Defense is also scheduled to visit the Southeast Asian nation later this week to tout the Golden Eagle.

KAI also hoped to reopen talks with the UAE over the sale of the T-50, as Italy’s Alenia Aermacchi has failed to finalize a deal with the Emirates for a year.

The single-engine trainer aircraft features digital flight controls and a modern ground-based training system, which helps new pilots smoothly transition into advanced fighters, such the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightening II, as well as the F-16 Fighting Falcon.
It has a top speed of Mach 1.5, and the per-unit price is about $25 million.

The government is accelerating efforts to make its first overseas sale of the T-50, tying the success of the jet to becoming a major arms exporter and reviving the economy.
The government aims to reach $3 billion in defense exports by 2012, and industry and government officials agree that sales of the T-50 are essential to attaining that goal.

The T-50 is also competing with Italy's M-346 in deals in Israel, Poland and Iraq.

The United States is also said to be looking to open a bid for trainer acquisition in the near future.

Currious though, in yesterday meeting between South Korea Minister of Defense and his Indonesian counterpart, he hinted possible larger job load for DI/IAe on KFX program (then Indonesian 20% money portion on development stages).
Whether this related with posible off-set offer in T-50 packages will have to be seen.

However some people in ministry here already argue that's logical for Indonesia that will bet much of it's future Fighter with KFX program, will prepared the Air Force pilot in T-50 since it's the trainers that will be compatible with future KFX.

Wandering though that with Locheed involvement in T-50, it will be used by US as T-38 Talon replacement. Afterall this's the only Advance Supersonic trainer that's ready in the market.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

RI, South Korea to begin jet fighter production in 2012
The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | Wed, 08/11/2010 6:18 PM | National


Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro said Wednesday that Indonesia and South Korea would begin joint preparations for manufacturing new jet fighters in 2012.

Purnomo and his South Korean counterpart, Kim Tae-Young, met in Jakarta earlier in the day.

Cooperation on the jet fighter initiative, which has been dubbed the FSX project, started in 2006.

Purnomo said that the project would be able to build a prototype fighter by 2020.

The initiative is widely seen as a pilot project for Indonesia to revitalize its defense industry.

 

[Ananda]

More Support for Golden Eagle

More support for Korean T-50 as LIFT candidate to replace Hawk Mk 53. This one from Antara News:

Jakarta (ANTARA News) - Air Force Chief of Staff, Marshal Imam Sufaat, said the plane T-50 Golden Eagle made in South Korea, have more potential to replace Hawk Mk-53 aircraft which will be out-of-life in 2011.

"Currently there are three types of planes that pass the selection to replace the Mk-53 T-50 Golden Eagle (South Korea), Yakovlev Yak 130 (Russia) and ALCA Aero L159 (Czech)," he said, when it was confirmed here on Thursday . However, continued the Marshall, there are several considerations to ensure the T-50 as replacement for Mk-53.

"T-50 is South Korea's fourth-generation aircraft with the various benefits of modern day, which is no longer owned by L-159," he said. Meanwhile, 130 is also the potential to replace Yak-53 Mk but the procedures and mechanisms for the purchase of Russia's sometimes very strict.

Not only that, rafter details, there is already an agreement between Indonesia and South Korea to cooperate in the defense industry as co-production of aircraft. "So there are some advantages if we use the T-50. In addition, a fourth-generation aircraft with modern day technology there for continuation toward next fighter(KFX), through such joint production," said Marshall

However, he continued, all possibilities are still discussed in depth. "We continue to ask three kinds of Mk-53 replacement aircraft, to be discussed in depth for the Ministry of Defence decided soon," he added.

( Antara )

This add support for T-50 as prime candidate for LIFT. Also from Antara Air Force Chief stated this September 2010 the last 3 Flankers from this batch will be comming, thus made the flankers inventory 10 aircraft. No news on the next batch.

However the Air Force chief statement on difficulty procedures in acquiaring Russian planes ( I suspect more to Terms of Payment and Credit Procedures) may be create some reluctance in here on adding more russian types of aircraft.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Some pics of the KFX project...

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

There's a substantial US element to the F/A-50/T-50 golden eagle programme as has been highlighted earlier. It would be interesting to see how the Koreans tackle the engine and avionics programmes.

Not much choice except European. The best candidate I can think of are the French M-53/88s together with Italian or French avionics. That could mean substantial re-design though.

It would be more radical to develop their own engines but I can't see the Koreans going that way.

 

[Vivendi]

There's a substantial US element to the F/A-50/T-50 golden eagle programme as has been highlighted earlier. It would be interesting to see how the Koreans tackle the engine and avionics programmes.

Not much choice except European. The best candidate I can think of are the French M-53/88s together with Italian or French avionics. That could mean substantial re-design though.

It would be more radical to develop their own engines but I can't see the Koreans going that way.

What about a couple of Kaveri engines? Have the Indians given up on the Kaveri?

Or could Korea/Indonesia go for Eurojet EJ200?

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

The initial LCAs are going to be equipped with the F-404. The Kaveris are also based on the M-88 core after they couldn't develop one directly. The engine development hasn't been fully completed. Might as well get the real thing ie snecma M-88s.

EJ-200 is a possibility. Higher thrust with the same fuel consumption rate as the M-88. However so far its only been used in the Typhoon so reliability is not yet proven. Nor is there any indication that the EJ-200 can be exported (without the Typhoon).

The M-88s may be only used on the Rafale, but Snecma has a long history of export. The lower thrust may mean greater range than an EJ-200-equipped fighter but less performance.

Comparatively, EJ-200 is a better fit, size-wise, as the M-88s are smaller as compared to the F-404-102s which currently fit the T-50s. I don't think there will be a problem for KAI to fit either.

I don't think it will be a dual engined jet due to cost constraint.

M-88-2 brochure
http://www.snecma.com/IMG/pdf/M88-2_ang-2.pdf

EJ-200 brochure
http://www.mtu.de/de/products_services/military_business/programs/ej200/EJ200.pdf

 

[Vivendi]

EJ-200 is a possibility. Higher thrust with the same fuel consumption rate as the M-88. However so far its only been used in the Typhoon so reliability is not yet proven. Nor is there any indication that the EJ-200 can be exported (without the Typhoon).

The M-88s may be only used on the Rafale, but Snecma has a long history of export. The lower thrust may mean greater range than an EJ-200-equipped fighter but less performance.

Comparatively, EJ-200 is a better fit, size-wise, as the M-88s are smaller as compared to the F-404-102s which currently fit the T-50s. I don't think there will be a problem for KAI to fit either.

I don't think it will be a dual engined jet due to cost constraint.

M-88-2 brochure
http://www.snecma.com/IMG/pdf/M88-2_ang-2.pdf

EJ-200 brochure
http://www.mtu.de/de/products_services/military_business/programs/ej200/EJ200.pdf

Over 550 EJ200 engines have been delivered and the engine fleet has accumulated over 120,000 engine flying hours to date.

Typhoon Tranche 3 order worth over £300 million to Rolls-Royce - Rolls-Royce

Note that this was written one year ago, so presumably the flight hours are even higher now.

EJ200 is also a candidate for the Indian Tejas it seems -- so I don't think that using it in another plane than the TYphoon should be a problem.

The M800 had more than 100,000 flying hours in January 2010: http://www.safran-group.com/IMG/pdf/SAF-7_US_moteur-rafale.pdf

 

[Ananda]

There's a substantial US element to the F/A-50/T-50 golden eagle programme as has been highlighted earlier. It would be interesting to see how the Koreans tackle the engine and avionics programmes.

Not much choice except European. The best candidate I can think of are the French M-53/88s together with Italian or French avionics. That could mean substantial re-design though.

It would be more radical to develop their own engines but I can't see the Koreans going that way.

From sources in DI/IAe, said that discussion with KAI seems put the potensial sources for engine down to two names: GE and SNECMA.
I already put some speculation from sources in here previously in this thread that Indonesia would prefered SNECMA and SAGEM as Engine and Avionics supplier (i,e Indonesia seems prefered French/European solutions for Technological partner).

However whether its possible and economical to developed two sets of engine and avionics modules for KFX with development budget of USD 10 bio (this come out as Indonesian sources says that Indonesia will bear 20% of budget costs or USD 2.0 bio), its' much to see.

Note: In My oppinion if they went to single engine (rather than double engine) versions, then it will be difficult to go to French solutions since (correct me if I'm wrong), French did not have single engine that capables for 11 ton fighter that KFX initial ground work envisage.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

From sources in DI/IAe, said that discussion with KAI seems put the potensial sources for engine down to two names: GE and SNECMA.
I already put some speculation from sources in here previously in this thread that Indonesia would prefered SNECMA and SAGEM as Engine and Avionics supplier (i,e Indonesia seems prefered French/European solutions for Technological partner).

However whether its possible and economical to developed two sets of engine and avionics modules for KFX with development budget of USD 10 bio (this come out as Indonesian sources says that Indonesia will bear 20% of budget costs or USD 2.0 bio), its' much to see.

Note: In My oppinion if they went to single engine (rather than double engine) versions, then it will be difficult to go to French solutions since (correct me if I'm wrong), French did not have single engine that capables for 11 ton fighter that KFX initial ground work envisage.

Not a problem. Mirage 2000s and earlier are all single engined fighters.

The M-88-3 is the equivalent of the EJ-200, if that's required.

 

[Ananda]

Not a problem. Mirage 2000s and earlier are all single engined fighters.

The M-88-3 is the equivalent of the EJ-200, if that's required.

Well if they build KFX to Mirage 2000 or Grippen NG class then they scaled down the original concept (in which they expect KFX to be 40 K Pds class engine thrust).
Basically I agree the single engine concept will be more realisticall, however if they aimed to be at same class with F-16 Block 60 or J-10B, then I don't think there are now Western European single engine which can propelled figthers at that catagory. I don't know if M-88-3 or latest EJ-2000 is having sufficient enough thrust.
Then it's back to GE 100 families (or) Lyukka AL-31 derivatives. The AL-31 derivatives will match with Indonesian Flankers (in which will be in the inventory after 2020), but I don't think it will match South Korea needs. That's why still have to see whether it's economical for them to design KFX with 2 set of engines and avionics.

Having KFX with GE 100 families (or derivatives) or AL-31 derivatives as engine will create compatibility with South Korean Vipers and Indonesian Flankers, and also made KFX more flexible in the market.

 

[Ananda]

From Kompas using Google translate:

JAKARTA, KOMPAS.com - Swallow (Sriti in Indonesian), UAV, the creation of Indonesia, was introduced on the R & D Ritech Expo 2010, Saturday (08/21/2010). According Teguh, one engineer from BPPT, Swallow is a fifth plane that was created BPPT.

"This is the fifth development, having previously been Woodpecker (Pelatuk), Wulung, Crow (Gagak), and Microhierax (Alap-Alap). However, despite the five aircraft that were created, the new Swallow will be the first one used by the government Agencies.

The plan, in November later Swallow will be used by the Ministry of Maritime Affairs and Fisheries to control the outer sea zone of Indonesia. This aims to prevent another breach of foreign ships.

"We will cooperate with the Ministry of Marine Affairs and Fisheries of Indonesia to control the outer sea," said Armanto further.

Swallow the methanol fuel used in aircraft such as AEROMODELLING. Srinti maximum control distance is 45 km. Control of the aircraft using the Ground Control Station (GCS).

GCS consists of a remote control that is used during takeoff and landing. When in the air, moving Srinti autonomus, according to the points that have been determined on the computer. Peswat movement is using the software Dynamic c # with the Rabbit 4000 processor has been developed by a team of BPPT.

The image from defense-studies,blogspot.com

Well have to start somewhere and somehow. This is definetely not MALE catagory, more to Low Alititude and I Believe Short Endurences. However it has autonomous capabilities even still pre-flight determined coordinate. Don't know if it has the capabilties on 'on-flight' coordinate changes.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

From Kompas using Google translate:



The image from defense-studies,blogspot.com

Well have to start somewhere and somehow. This is definetely not MALE catagory, more to Low Alititude and I Believe Short Endurences. However it has autonomous capabilities even still pre-flight determined coordinate. Don't know if it has the capabilties on 'on-flight' coordinate changes.

Yes, 45 km is a little bit disappointing. But it looks good, definitely not a copy of a foreign design, fully Indigenous developed. If they can increase the size, then the range will also increase....

 

[Ananda]

Yes, 45 km is a little bit disappointing. But it looks good, definitely not a copy of a foreign design, fully Indigenous developed. If they can increase the size, then the range will also increase....

If we look the short intial for Medium Altitude Long Endurance as MALE, which kind of maskulin and agresif. However if we look for Low Altitude and Medium Endurances and we come out on 'LAME' as short initial , or if Medium Altitude and Medium Endurances is 'MAME' which kind of feminime and subversif (sorry not want to loook like male chauvinist )
Kind of questioning if using UAV on that catagory really come out as 'duck' just like the short initial suggest.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

If we look the short intial for Medium Altitude Long Endurance as MALE, which kind of maskulin and agresif. However if we look for Low Altitude and Medium Endurances and we come out on 'LAME' as short initial , or if Medium Altitude and Medium Endurances is 'MAME' which kind of feminime and subversif (sorry not want to loook like male chauvinist )
Kind of questioning if using UAV on that catagory really come out as 'duck' just like the short initial suggest.

Its more a Low Altitude Short Endurance Vehicle.....LASEV?

 

[Ananda]

President Approved for 6 More Flankers

From Kompas news paper with google translate:

Three Sukhoi Come September

Jakarta, Kompas - The three planned Russian-made Sukhoi planes, 5 September 2010. Those three plane was completing seven similar aircraft that have been owned by the Indonesian National Army Air Force.

"Three Sukhoi will come this September. There is already a team who picked up there, "said Army Chief of Staff Air Force (Air Force Chief) Marshal Imam Sufaat, Tuesday (31 / 8). Two aircraft will come on Sept. 5 and one aircraft will come on Sept. 15. This new aircraft scheduled to appear at the TNI anniversary date of October 5.

"So, we already have 10 Sukhoi and plans to add six more and the President had already approved, "said Imam. Indonesian owned Sukhoi aircraft first arrived in 2004. Currently planes belonging to the 11th Squadron is based at the Air Field Hasanuddin, Makassar. Three Sukhoi who come will be accompanied by Antonov planes.

Just as sources in here indicated, that after 2nd batch of six completes (1st batch of 4 in 2004), the 3rd Batch of additional 6 will follow. Thus will complete one full sq of 16 flankers. The make up still predicted will be 8 SU 27 and 8 SU 30.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Just as sources in here indicated, that after 2nd batch of six completes (1st batch of 4 in 2004), the 3rd Batch of additional 6 will follow. Thus will complete one full sq of 16 flankers. The make up still predicted will be 8 SU 27 and 8 SU 30.

Something has always interested me about these Flankers. Are the SU-27's new builds or second hand? If new builds, why is the TNI-AU pursuing two differing standards of Flankers for the same squadron? Does it simply come down to up-front acquisition cost, because through-life support costs are going to be greater, this way?

If the SU-27's are intended only for a training capability fair enough I guess, but then the argument would be, why do you need the same number of training aircraft as "operational" aircraft?

It's hard to fathom, looking from afar...

 

[Ananda]

Something has always interested me about these Flankers. Are the SU-27's new builds or second hand? If new builds, why is the TNI-AU pursuing two differing standards of Flankers for the same squadron? Does it simply come down to up-front acquisition cost, because through-life support costs are going to be greater, this way?

If the SU-27's are intended only for a training capability fair enough I guess, but then the argument would be, why do you need the same number of training aircraft as "operational" aircraft?

It's hard to fathom, looking from afar...

That's a very good questions. Those Flankers are all newly build. Sources in here says the SU-30 comming from Irkust, I don't have devinite sources that says whether SU-27 also coming from Irkust or Knappo.

Explenations on why both SU-27 and SU-30 and not just one type of Flankers (from several discussion on local forum and hinted from Mindef and TNI-AU brass):
1. That TNI AU hopes Flankers numbers will not limited to one sq. They still expect to have at least 3-4 sq or around 48 Flankers even 64 Flankers, in which having both type of Flankers can be justifiable logistically.
2. When Megawati (previous President) bought initial 4 Flankers with 2 SU-30 and 2 SU-27, some thinking in here put SU-27 as F-16 and F 5 replacements. This at time when getting additional F-16 or even modifying existing F-16 still hard to implemented.

Now, Mindef already indicated that modifying existing F-16 and getting second hand F-16 C/D (Block 25-30) with MLU can be preferable for replacing F-5 and strengthen current F-16 as potential 'stop-gap' until KF-X ready in 2020. It's going to be part of Heavy Fighthers (Flankers) and Medium Fighters (F-16 and later on KF-X) as future combinations for TNI-AU.

Still personally, if they choose to do that, I think they should only take SU-30 and forgot SU-27, since most of the purpose of SU-27 can be covered by F-16 anyways.
TNI AU way of thinking I say has improved some-what, however personally I think sometimes still have 'questionable' justifications

BTW: 48 - 64 Flankers ?? Even with increasing Defence Budget foreseen in the future, they'll be lucky to got 32 (2 Sq of 16 each). With Government (even the oppositions) already show commitment to join KF-X, TNI AU will have to take much part of acquistions on new fighters will be directed on KF-X participation costs.

 

[OPSSG]

I'm posting some news on the KF-X project, though I have some doubts about the likelihood of this latest proposed development coming to pass at the moment:

Turkey could join Korea’s fighter plan

GYEONGJU, North Gyeongsang Province ― Turkey has shown a strong interest in joining Korea’s KF-X fighter development plan, after having already won investment from Indonesia, a chief of the military's aircraft programs said. Maj. Gen. Choi Cha-kyu, director general of the aircraft program bureau at the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), said during a forum here Tuesday that Ankara is seriously considering participating in the KF-X program to replace its 180 older F-16 aircraft by 2020....

...

Industry sources say Turkey’s participation in the KF-X project could result in a barter deal. Ankara wants Seoul to consider its T-129 helicopter, under development for the Turkish Army, as a candidate for the AH-X heavy attack helicopter acquisition program.

The KF-X program calls for developing an indigenous fighter similar to the latest F-16 by 2022 with financial support from foreign nations or defense companies. About 120 KF-Xs would be built initially and more than 130 aircraft would be produced additionally after the first-phase models reach operational capability. Korea will foot 60 percent of the KF-X development costs worth some 5 trillion won ($4.2 billion), with the balance to come from other governments or corporate partners in a “risk sharing” attempt. Under a memorandum of understanding (MOU) signed on July 15, Indonesia agreed to bear 20 percent of the bill and buy about 50 KF-X planes when mass production begins. The production costs after the development phase are estimated to be about 6 trillion won...

If it comes to pass this would be an interesting development but I do hope that the posting of this news will not encourage the participation of the ignorant that have a habit of making strange and biased criticism of a fighter development programme that just reeks of desperation or new members with specific doom and gloom agendas. It's just news relevant to this thread. Read it with a pinch of salt until further developments are announced.

 

[Ananda]

If it comes to pass this would be an interesting development but I do hope that the posting of this news will not encourage the participation of the ignorant that have a habit of making strange and biased criticisms that just reek of desperation or new members with specific doom and gloom agendas. It's just news relevant to this thread. Read it with a pinch of salt until further developments are announced.

For one thing for sure no Fan Kiddies with thinking that KF-X is a STEALTH Gen 5 fighthers will be allowed .
There a lot of those kiddies in local forum here for one thing who 'knowingly' determined that KF-X with only USD 8 - 10 bio development costs will be at par with F-35 .
This with known fact that KAI plus DI officials in here clear;y stated that 'at most' this will be a 4.5 gen type aircraft that aimed to replace light weight fighters like F-5 or Hawk 200 or early gen F-16.

Seems KAI already determined that KF-X will aimed as low end fighters in the future portfolios of ROKAF. With F-15 will be at top end, KF-X aimed to be at lower end. It's also hinted by TNI AU brass in here in which they aimed Flakers at the High end and KF-X in lower end.

Getting Turkey on board is the aimed from KAI since like DI in here and TAI in Turkey are partners with mutual potential agreement to each other. Also Turkey is aiming to replace their F-5 fleet and part of their early gen F-16 by 2020.