Redlands18
Well-Known Member
looks to be externally, a very cluttered non-stealthy design for a modern Warship.
Indonesia: 'green water navy'
- Thread starter Supe
- Start date
Ananda
The Bunker Group
They want to have everything on +/-140m design hull. AAW, ASuW, ASW, considerable long range patrol. The design seems especially hull still provide relative stealthy concepts for ASW purpose. From the 'chatter' that I got from Indonesian media, CODADe just like they have on SIGMA PKR 10514 will still be the preference.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
I am quite sure this is the Fincantieri GP-version of the FREMM.
Iver Huitveldt, OMEGA, 30FFM, second hand F122 Bremen Class, second hand La Fayette Class.....
They do not know which one they have to choose
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Well, seems It is. I put it in my post like a puzzle just to shown how indecision still happening up to this stage. Last year they're already sign preliminary contract for 2 Iver Based design. Then they talk with Fincantieri/Leonardo, also with MHI for 30FFM, while Damen and Odense Iver also still in contention.
They already talk in media of 140m. Thus if they're consistent on this, they design that already in that range are FREMM and Iver. Damen Omega, I don't know how this going and MHI also have iteration for slightly longer 30FFM.
Still the point I make is that, 3-4 years process in first term MinDef is basically wasted. They are now like back to beginning again.
@Ananda,
I don’t think the Fincantieri GP-version of the FREMM suitable for Indonesia. My strong preference is for the MHI 30FFM design — it’s such an advanced well rounded design with many superbly integrated technology layers in a 130 m long hull form. It is capable for more than air defence and ASW.
I don’t think the Fincantieri GP-version of the FREMM suitable for Indonesia. My strong preference is for the MHI 30FFM design — it’s such an advanced well rounded design with many superbly integrated technology layers in a 130 m long hull form. It is capable for more than air defence and ASW.
Could also be a model of the 107 m Doha class corvette; which is a powerful air defence vessel. This is one area that it out punches a Formidable class.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Looking to the hull shape and the position of the funnel, i am sure it is the Italian FREMM, and not the Doha Class.
Its better not to start to talk about the Doha Class, if officials from the Indonesian Navy and MoD reading this, then they will be also suddenly interested in this class, which make it more harder for them to choose.
:-D
Thanks for the correction.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Youre welcome.
If i make any grammatical error or any other language mistake, please correct me. I still have to learn a lot.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
You know @Sandhi Yudha they probably already put that on the consideration too
The thing is they're still looking on combination of Frigated and Light Frigates, or Frigates only, or Light Frigates only.
That's why Damen put Both Sigma 10514 and Omega, Naval Group put both FTI and Gowind, thus I presume Fincantieri most probably also put FREMM and Doha. Quite interesting why Naval Group not putting FREMM but FTI, perhaps because FTI design is wholly owned by them.
There's also older photos in Local Forums and media showing presentation of Odense on Iver design and smaller design. MHI also already give presentation (in Naval News, I think it's been put sometime ago in this thread) of Corvettes, Frigates and AAW Destroyers based on 30DDX design. Point I make all the design contenders seems prepared to bring both Corvettes/Light Frigates design and Frigates (NATO Standard) size design.
Basically MinDef ask for everything, but still keep in 'grey' what they are really looking for. All indication so far is if Frigates they're looking for around 140m design, and if it's Light Frigates/Corvettes they're presumably looking to 105-110m design.
@OPSSG, personally I do agree with Japan offer. MHI offer for 30FFM can provide good GP Frigates that seems suitable with what MinDef after. Their offer for building 4 in Japan and 4 in Indonesia with the package of USD 2-3 bio is very affordable for Japanese quality design products. MHI from what I heard in presentation in Naval News also open to suit their design either with Japan system or other suppliers system and weapons package.
Thus it can meet Jokowi's aim for local Industry development and getting new Frigates in relative faster way. So why still this is all with Fincantieri and Odense ? That's the questions that only MinDef can answer.
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Is that a FREMM??? Even if it’s not (and I am not all that familiar with the new Japanese or Korean kit) I would have thought that TNI would be better off going with something that has at least some commonality with the current fleet (or its modern elements, anyway) and not go down an entirely new track
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
We also become tired of it. But that's have become a little bit of a habit with this administration. First it was all about the Su-35 and Iver Huitfeldt. Last year some new unexpected equipment appear from nowhere in the news.
MV-22B, second hand EF2000, an old second hand F122 Bremen-class, 30FFM frigates.....
In the first months of this year we are now talking about Rafales, F-15EX, La Fayette frigates, in the middle of this year we will be maybe talking about other procurement plans, which will be totally different with end this year and next year......
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
It seems that PT Bandar Abadi has launched the 8th vessel of the Bintuni-class LSTs, AT-8. AT-9 is also under construction on the same yard.
Edit.
According to Indonesian shipyard launches two tank landing ships not just one (AT-8) but both ships were launched that day.
The ships have a range of 7200 nm/16.300 km, which is impressive for just an LST.
Edit.
According to Indonesian shipyard launches two tank landing ships not just one (AT-8) but both ships were launched that day.
The ships have a range of 7200 nm/16.300 km, which is impressive for just an LST.
Also the price is ridiculously low! For such a price it shouldn't be that hard to find export costumers.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
It seems that KRI Hasanuddin 366 is paying a port visit to the Turkish city of Mersin on the south coast.
Koninklijke Schelde is offering the SIGMA 11515 to the Hellenic Navy. This genetically modified version of the SIGMA 10514 is a cheaper alternative for the Omega-design, but looking to the current administration, it is even not sure if any frigate will be ordered before 2025.
Just uploaded by KOAMARDA 1, the KRI Karel Satsuitubun 356 patrolling in Laut Natuna Utara.
Koninklijke Schelde is offering the SIGMA 11515 to the Hellenic Navy. This genetically modified version of the SIGMA 10514 is a cheaper alternative for the Omega-design, but looking to the current administration, it is even not sure if any frigate will be ordered before 2025.
Just uploaded by KOAMARDA 1, the KRI Karel Satsuitubun 356 patrolling in Laut Natuna Utara.
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Actually AT-8 was launched on Saturday, 26 February while AT-9 was launched on Wednesday, 3 March. There are video of both launches and by comparing the upload dates and the scenery around it we can tell they are on different days. However, "officially" the ships were launched on Wednesday because that's when the Navy Chief of Staff was present to make a speech. If you look at (Indonesian language) the press release from the Indonesian Navy you can see that the specific mention of the 3/3 date. Reading the article we can see that a shipnaming ceremony was conducted for both ships followed by the launch of KRI Teluk Wondama 527. No mention of launching the KRI Teluk Weda 526.
The price shouldn't include defense systems but for an LST defense systems won't be much so the price should be close to the total cost.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the correction!
I also expect that the total costs will not that much higher. Only a simple navigation radar will be installed, and if any weaponsystems will be installed, im quite sure it will be old manually operated machine guns, 25 mm, 37 mm or 40 mm naval guns which are recycled over and over again.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
TKMS representatives arrive in Jakarta to discuss Type 214 submarines
A delegation of representatives from German shipbuilder Thyssen-Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS) has arrived in Jakarta to discuss the potential acquisition of Type 214...
www.janes.com
Well, seems this's the TKMS answer for Naval Group offer of Scorpene version (still not clear of it is non AIP ones like they build with Brazilian).
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Maybe next month we can expect a visit from DSME, after that Kockums, Navantia...TKMS representatives arrive in Jakarta to discuss Type 214 submarines
A delegation of representatives from German shipbuilder Thyssen-Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS) has arrived in Jakarta to discuss the potential acquisition of Type 214...
Well, seems this's the TKMS answer for Naval Group offer of Scorpene version (still not clear of it is non AIP ones like they build with Brazilian).
And in 2024 we still haven't decided which submarine class we have to choose.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Personally now, I just post any news or development and not want to speculate much
It can be by this year, MinDef already close all their planning and move to procurement stage. Or the other way around, as you put it can be dragging on.
It can be they will decide on Submarine first, as they have already invest on PAL submarine facilities. I do sense the Naval projects can get bit more traction than AF fighters project. My previous Bank got involved in providing domestic credit line for Navy patrol boats. Even the LST projects got more traction due to the availability of domestic credit lines on those Naval projects toward local shipyards.
So it's not impossible the Naval projects will get faster allocation of Foreign Credit Line for financing from Overseas projects (Including the license build locally). But let's see on the development.
One of the problem that I see, The law and Political stance of this administration is to get involvement of local Industry. There are relatively reliables Land Based equipment Industry that can be work out with foreign partners for Army Project. Similar thing can be said with local shipyards for Naval projects.
However for AF project the choices more or less only with DI for domestic involvement. Just I put on my previous post on the AF Thread, many in other departments including MinDef doesn't trust DI competency. It's continue shown the lack luster performance, corruption scandal, the low productivity problems, which I sense many in Bapenas and Ministry of Finance did not want to spend more money to DI asside what they already invest for N219.
So, I do sense that (base on suppliers projects in MinDef), they need more discussion on how to solve local Industry involvement in Aerospace considering local aerospace Industry is basically incompetence compared to the Land based and Naval local Industry.
Who knows, the answer is just to sell DI to foreign suppliers that's being choose as preferred AF suppliers. Well it's just my own speculation, besides who wants to Invest or take over highly inefficient Aerospace company like DI. Just like India can't get foreign Investors for HAL.
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Ahmad
Active Member
Looks like the budget for Chang Bogo has already been included in 2021 state budget. Lembaga Keris has shown the document
Ananda
The Bunker Group
@Ahmad you mean this one ? I see few days ago, but still not clear if this is going to be for South Korean Subs as part of last year 2nd batch DSME 1400 or another project. Logically if this for new Subs program, then USD 100+ Mio equivalent will be part of domestic financing, while the rest will use foreign credit line.
There's too much speculation on Indonesian Submarine program. Some other forums shown what they call leak from last TNI Heads Meeting (Rapim) of types of Submarines they are going to engage. Including Scorpene, 214, and ROK Chang Bogo.
I kind of sceptical they will choose both Naval Group Scorpene and TKMS 214. Both already talk with PAL and looking on PAL submarine facilities. However considering PAL capabilities, I suspect is either Naval Group or TKMS or stay with DSME to be choose on local submarine Partner. It can only be one, PAL don't have capabilities to work with two types of Submarines simultaneously. Nobody can't, not even India, Brazil or Australia.
Then there's this speculation of used 209 as stop gap. Could be the speculation on Chang Bogo as stop gap as before the speculation was on Brazilian Tupi. If this's for an second hand stop gap submarine, then it could be finance directly from budget. USD 100 Mio perhaps will be enough to get one second hand Chang Bogo
Perhaps do you more information on this one ?
There's too much speculation on Indonesian Submarine program. Some other forums shown what they call leak from last TNI Heads Meeting (Rapim) of types of Submarines they are going to engage. Including Scorpene, 214, and ROK Chang Bogo.
I kind of sceptical they will choose both Naval Group Scorpene and TKMS 214. Both already talk with PAL and looking on PAL submarine facilities. However considering PAL capabilities, I suspect is either Naval Group or TKMS or stay with DSME to be choose on local submarine Partner. It can only be one, PAL don't have capabilities to work with two types of Submarines simultaneously. Nobody can't, not even India, Brazil or Australia.
Then there's this speculation of used 209 as stop gap. Could be the speculation on Chang Bogo as stop gap as before the speculation was on Brazilian Tupi. If this's for an second hand stop gap submarine, then it could be finance directly from budget. USD 100 Mio perhaps will be enough to get one second hand Chang Bogo
Perhaps do you more information on this one ?
