Indo Pacific strategy

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
And after MMCA earlier this month (see post above) the 39th edition of Balikatan kicked off today. It will last three weeks and take place in Palawan and Batanes, close to Taiwan and the South China Sea. Balikatan 2024 will also have observers from 14 countries: Brunei, Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea, Thailand and Vietnam.

17.000 soldiers from Australia, France, the Philippines and the US will participate.

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The recent mooring of Chinese warships at Cambodia’s Ream Naval Base marked the unofficial inauguration of China’s first overseas naval post in the Indo-Pacific region and only its second overall. The first one is china's naval support base in Djibouti.

And this is just the beginning. Earlier this year, the U.S. intelligence community warned Congress that China is pursuing other naval bases and expanded military access in Burma, Cuba, Equatorial Guinea, Pakistan, Seychelles, Sri Lanka, Tanzania and the United Arab Emirates.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
|"Target of the Philippine, U.S. and Australian military forces integrated land, sea and air assault was the BRP Lake Caliraya – the Philippine Navy’s ONLY CHINESE-MADE NAVAL ASSET, 15 kilometers away from the coast of Laoag.

Formerly “MT Lapu-Lapu,” the ship was an oil tanker built by Taizhou Zhongxing Shipyard in China for the Philippine National Oil Company in 2007 and was later converted by the Philippine Navy into its first-ever replenishment vessel before she was decommissioned in 2020. "|

No comment.. :-D
I am just curious to hear china's reaction.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
She was transfered from the Philippine National Oil Company when they shut down the shipping arm. By most accounts, she was barely used during the service, reportedly due to various problems and was largely laid up. No big lost.

The Philippines Navy might be a good candidate for Tarakan-class tanker. Their fleet size will grow in the next few years, but not yet at the stage where the need very large AOR or fleet refuelers.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Two different things to talk about...

1. A chinese Y-9 entered Japanese airspace around Danjo island for two minutes. It seems to be the first time that china really entered Japanese airspace, and not just Japanese EEZ. And now we have to expect that china will do it again in the future, maybe with more aircrafts and for longer periods, just to test Japan and to provoke.




2. India and Japan will cooperate more on defence, and Japan is even planning to export the Unified Complex Radio Antenna (Unicorn) to India.


Bonus: a long discussion about the Super Garuda Shield military exercises.
Super Garuda Shield Military Exercises Begin, F-22s Visit Brunei, Indonesia |Taiwan Talks EP440 (youtube.com)
 
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downunderblue

Active Member
FYI below is an interesting podcast on AUKUS involving a former (recent) Defence Attache at the US Embassy Canberra, and an accompanied State Department colleague. Much of the podcast seems US centric, but they are clearly aware of the AU landscape given they both served there. They also reference a recent podcast they had with AU PM Malcolm Turnbull and are aware of the criticism and debate occurring in AU.

I didn't know where to put this. An AUKUS forum may be more relevant but I put this in Indopac strategy given the scope.

Most of the discussion centres around Pilar 1. It's inferred that the original idea originated from a discussion between AU and the UK, with later engagement with the US.

Getting the wheels of govt turning is very hard (moreso aligning 3 Govt's across defense and DFAT/FCO/DOS channels). I wonder whether the original discussions were at a Naval attache level and branched from there. That's a seriously treacherous and high risk path, therefore getting this so far is a near miracle and historical achievement.

The podcast highlights commentary regarding US shipbuilding issues yet seem optimistic. I think it was recorded prior to the announcement on Wednesday past by GD Electric boat referencing a lack of “major components" affecting both SSN and SSBN boats. I've watched previous testimony of Administration/DOD and USN before the US House Armed Services Subcommittee on Seapower and they too have seemed optimistic that the issues will be resolved, but it's become a political football and more and more negative headlines are increasing pressure.

As referenced in the podcast (and in a point made by Turnbull) under the 2024 NDAA (ie US law), a US President now cannot authorise the transfer of a/any SSN until they issue a certification to Congress declaring that the release of the SSN will not degrade US undersea capabilities. Fortunately Trump will not be in the seat in the early 2030's to make that determination, but there is legitimate risk that a future President may not sign that document.

The podcast ends on a discussion about Malaysia and where how politically it is impacted by AUKUS and the growing powerplay in the region.

Worthwhile listening if you have time. Ta.

 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
This is interesting. US has sanctioned Pakistan for missile development.

A nothing burger if not for the unusual, direct statement saying that Pakistan is developing capabilities (e.g rocket motors) that could potentially allow it to reach the United States.

While the Pakistanis have expectedly criticised the sanctions, they did not directly refute that point. If it is not meant to target mainland US, the only other explanation I can think of is they are following the South Korean path (Korea Massive Punishment and Retaliation)'s Hyunmoo-V. A very powerful first stage that is used to launch a oversized warhead on a lofted trajectory.

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
A yellow unmanned underwater vehicle, marked “HY-119,” was found by Filipino fishermen from the waters off Masbate Island, which is an island exactly in the middle of central Philippines, on Monday 30 December and is suspected to be of Chinese origin.

In December 2020 a similar object was found by Indonesian fishermen, near South-Sulawesi, deep in Indonesian territory.

 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
There is nothing mysterious about this UUV/glider. It is chinese Haiyan 11 glider.

The original design is from Tianjin University, but has since been adopted for PLAN use under the "Dophin" project. Submarine forces need data, everything from ocean currents, salinity, temp at different depths and of course, sea floor maps. The program is meant to collect such data.

"Since 2014, the PLAN Submarine Academy, working in conjunction with scientists and engineers from Tianjin University and the Qingdao Pilot National Lab for Marine Science and Technology have methodically surmounted many of these challenges and now possess a capable prototype glider, the “Dolphin,” which has already undergone several rounds of testing in the South China Sea. "


"Tianjin University began developing the Haiyan series in 2002. Since 2006, Haiyan gliders have been deployed to collect key hydrologic data for scientific projects in bodies of water throughout China and nearby seas."


 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
With tensions rising in the Spratly Sea and the Trump administration pulling back from multilateral commitments, Indonesia is inviting 38 nations to its Multilateral Naval Exercise Komodo 2025.

 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member

The USMC is preparing to stand up a NMESIS battery in Okinawa, which will consist of 18 vehicles capable of carrying two NSMs each. Japan has already deployed the Type 12 anti-ship missile to the Ryukyu Islands, and is also planning to start deploying an upgraded version (900+ km range) in the next 12 months. The government has formally confirmed it will deploy the upgraded missile to the Ryukyu Islands, but I think it almost certainly will send them there.

In any event, I think the area around the north of Taiwan and south of Okinawa will increasingly be difficult for China to penetrate in event of war.
 
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downunderblue

Active Member
After listening to a combination of Trump's commentary (in part wanting to be the Peace President), the hedging of commentary by Elbridge Colby (USECDEF-Policy nominee), and additionally how the recent US Sentate ASC representations over Taiwan given the reduction of defense expenditure by the KMT led legislature, I'm started to see a world where the US could/would wash their hands of Taiwan, especially in a blockade scenario.

How do people feel about this?

As an Australian, to see the US walk back from Tawain would cause significant disruption in the region, scaring the heck out of many and forcing many others to fold, likely leading to the increased proliferation of nuclear weapons (I can see AU/ JP and ROK reacting quite quickly ). That makes the world a more dangerous place and IMO cements the US as a declining and unreliable power. Yes the US will be focused on the US (in their self interest- and fairly), but the alliance system they created will be destroyed overnight (as their is no certainty or trust). Surely this places the US in a weaker and more insecure position- esp in the medium to long term.

Considering all we are doing now to deter China from conflict, does the risk over US Taiwan policy increase the likelihood of short term conflict? Xi puts Taiwan front and centre of his ideology and has a lot politically invested in reunifying this rebel province. It's his legacy move and he's locked in (doesn't have much room to manavour before being seen internally as weak). He's a strategic thinker (yes surrounded by yes men), but surely he will be seeing this as an opportunity. Can anyone see a situation where he is more likely to take a calculated risk, just like Putin took a risk over the Ukraine?

Does this also fast forward any potential blockade or 'special' military operation to occur exclusively within the 4 year term of Trump? Xi has an opportunity here that didn't exist with Biden. Xi is also getting older so why risk your legacy on the whim of another US president who may see things differently?

We live in an increasingly insecure world. The rules based order (RBO) existed for the benefit of all (esp there US and their allies), but I fear the rules are being re-written (or at least re-drafted) every day and the stability the RBO provided for all is surely eroding. No one likes risk, especially geopolitical risk, and future conflict naturally is born from that risk/ instability.

What a world we live in.

In other matters, President Marcos of the Philippines has in 24hrs cut the Duterte family off at the knees. Yes the arrest and extradition was illegal and more like the handling of a Mexican drug lord, but it's also cut of (for now) China's attempt to negate that strategic landmass as a threat.

Maybe Chinese money can now move away from the Philippines and be used more effectively coercing/ co-opting the KMT. Better bang from buck IMO and a decent play to make. Let the US walk away from Taiwan over perceived 'self interest' and 'rhetric' over why should US enter a conflict over a partner who isn't serious or committed ($) about defending their own soverignty (ref: Trump's comments on 6MAR25 that if NATO countries don't pay for their own defense, the United States will not defend them).
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
After listening to a combination of Trump's commentary (in part wanting to be the Peace President), the hedging of commentary by Elbridge Colby (USECDEF-Policy nominee), and additionally how the recent US Sentate ASC representations over Taiwan given the reduction of defense expenditure by the KMT led legislature, I'm started to see a world where the US could/would wash their hands of Taiwan, especially in a blockade scenario.

How do people feel about this?

As an Australian, to see the US walk back from Tawain would cause significant disruption in the region, scaring the heck out of many and forcing many others to fold, likely leading to the increased proliferation of nuclear weapons (I can see AU/ JP and ROK reacting quite quickly ). That makes the world a more dangerous place and IMO cements the US as a declining and unreliable power. Yes the US will be focused on the US (in their self interest- and fairly), but the alliance system they created will be destroyed overnight (as their is no certainty or trust). Surely this places the US in a weaker and more insecure position- esp in the medium to long term.

Considering all we are doing now to deter China from conflict, does the risk over US Taiwan policy increase the likelihood of short term conflict? Xi puts Taiwan front and centre of his ideology and has a lot politically invested in reunifying this rebel province. It's his legacy move and he's locked in (doesn't have much room to manavour before being seen internally as weak). He's a strategic thinker (yes surrounded by yes men), but surely he will be seeing this as an opportunity. Can anyone see a situation where he is more likely to take a calculated risk, just like Putin took a risk over the Ukraine?

Does this also fast forward any potential blockade or 'special' military operation to occur exclusively within the 4 year term of Trump? Xi has an opportunity here that didn't exist with Biden. Xi is also getting older so why risk your legacy on the whim of another US president who may see things differently?

We live in an increasingly insecure world. The rules based order (RBO) existed for the benefit of all (esp there US and their allies), but I fear the rules are being re-written (or at least re-drafted) every day and the stability the RBO provided for all is surely eroding. No one likes risk, especially geopolitical risk, and future conflict naturally is born from that risk/ instability.

What a world we live in.

In other matters, President Marcos of the Philippines has in 24hrs cut the Duterte family off at the knees. Yes the arrest and extradition was illegal and more like the handling of a Mexican drug lord, but it's also cut of (for now) China's attempt to negate that strategic landmass as a threat.

Maybe Chinese money can now move away from the Philippines and be used more effectively coercing/ co-opting the KMT. Better bang from buck IMO and a decent play to make. Let the US walk away from Taiwan over perceived 'self interest' and 'rhetric' over why should US enter a conflict over a partner who isn't serious or committed ($) about defending their own soverignty (ref: Trump's comments on 6MAR25 that if NATO countries don't pay for their own defense, the United States will not defend them).
What does the world expect USA to do in regards to Taiwan? For China reunification with Taiwan is not an option, its a mandatory national goal. Reunification will happen armed or other wise.

Do you expect the US to be incolved in a hot all out war with China in a region where they only muster their partial strength and China can muster all of theirs?? South Korea wont actively get involved in a hot war with China, North Kora will keep them occupied. Phillipines is irrelvant in terms of armed support. Japan is unlikely tobe involved unless China attacks them first. So what is America suposed to do, sacrififce potentially tens of thousands of their soldiers in a war very far away from home, where victory is not even assured??

And what about Australia? they are spedning more on defense, but is the Australian populace ok with their men and women dying for a war far away from their borders? The time where the West cpuld have easily militarily defeated China was in the 90s and early 2000s. The cats out of the bag now.
 

downunderblue

Active Member
What does the world expect USA to do in regards to Taiwan? For China reunification with Taiwan is not an option, its a mandatory national goal. Reunification will happen armed or other wise.
I note your profile says you are from Bangladesh. Should you have accepted Pakistani soverignty over your livelihood and accepted it because they were more powerful? Should Ukraine fall over too just because they should, according to one powerful man?

You say "reunification will happen armed or other wise" and you say it in a tone similar to a member of the Blue Army operating off a PC in a stale room somewhere in the Central kingdom. Either that, or your experiences or apathy says you should fall over to the strong. Much of ASEAN is doing that now hoping they can strike a deal or two. I don't think its a great strategy but for every Chamberlin is a Churchill, and for every Switzerland is a WW2 Poland. I think those same Poles learned from that and will never let it happen again.

Most/ much foreign policy is based upon self interest, however generally we have seen the emergence (rules based order) of some morality within foreign policy. Yes the US launched Desert Shield because of the self-serving strategic and economic risk (of skyrocketing petroleum prices) but also on the notion that the world is worse off if bigger countries just swallow smaller ones. Yes quarel and have disagreements, but settle them in some tribunal etc, don't use force to bully the weak. Yes this has not always been the case (quite a modern convention really) but I think a more predictable and rules based world is a good thing for all.

As for the Taiwanese. The only way they should reunify with the PRC is if they themselves chose to do so. Why should any country be forced to cede its soverignty under the threat of a gun whilst coerced. They have the right to choose, and considering how quickly people's freedoms evaporated in HK and Macau, you could understand why they would want nothing to do with the CCP and beg to be left alone in peace to govern themselves peacefully according to their values.

As a regional observer, I struggle morally watching the self determination and livelihood of the Taiwanese people being decided purely by the decree of one person (either Xi and Trump for that matter). Xi for me has no right to tell them how they should live. As a recommendation I would have stuck with a hearts and minds campaign as they may have come around, but there is something about humans and their basic rights that are worth protecting. You say"reunification will happen armed or other wise". I say why, nor why should the Taiwanese be dictated upon my a despot and a foreign one for that?

Do you expect the US to be involved in a hot all out war with China in a region where they only muster their partial strength and China can muster all of theirs?? South Korea wont actively get involved in a hot war with China, North Kora will keep them occupied. Phillipines is irrelvant in terms of armed support. Japan is unlikely tobe involved unless China attacks them first. So what is America suposed to do, sacrififce potentially tens of thousands of their soldiers in a war very far away from home, where victory is not even assured??
Check your war games and your assumptions. Intellectually it's been war gamed and the most likely outcome (dependant upon scenario) is a stalemate where the US is hurt early on, but many many more PLA troops die and any landing can't be sustained. Meanwhile like the events of Pearl Harbour, the US will strike back and China will pay a significant price. Yamamoto may or may not have stated "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" but in similar vein a sustained conflict hurts China more than the US, and Xi's and the CCP internal authority will come under significant strain, all for what, nationalism, pride, ego, reinforced destiny- again they all go back to the groin size issue again.

And what about Australia? they are spedning more on defense, but is the Australian populace ok with their men and women dying for a war far away from their borders? The time where the West cpuld have easily militarily defeated China was in the 90s and early 2000s. The cats out of the bag now.
Thank goodness we chose not to go to war in the 90's or the 2000's, just because China was weaker and the US etc stronger? Again you seem to struggle with the notion of morality in foreign policy. Why go to war with a fellow nuclear power over who has the biggest groin size? Call it our weakness or our strength, but many thought working with China and supporting their rise to economic prosperity (to mutual benefit lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty) was a good thing for all. It's a shame that Deng isn't still around. He seemed to be so much easier to work with. I'm sure he'd provide really sound advise to Xi, but Xi would likely have him detained on fake corruption charges as a result.

Its not a "cat out of its bag" but a tiger. You cant negotiate with a Tiger as all they respect is strength/ self preservation. You have to persude them that any fight is a fight they will lose, and then they will back down. Xi needs to know that, just as Hitler needed to hear it in Czechoslavia, and Putin needed to hear it before Ukraine.

As for Australia, no we don't want war but we do have a strong ethos of 'a fair go for all' and standing up for the vulnerable/ weak/ less fortunate. We will do whatever we can and more than most other countries of our size. Self interest is important, but East Timor showed we're willing to stick our necks out for the sake of others less fortunate than us. If the US stands with us, like Japan and other like minded countries I see a real reason for China to avoid conflict. Again it all comes down to that rules based order. If only China could seen that working within the rules based order they could have cemented their power and influence (and likely unified with Taiwan), only peacefully. Again what else would you expect from the CCP run by a dictator (a tiger), as his is a world of survival and domination, not compromise, conciliation or mutual benefit.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
I note your profile says you are from Bangladesh. Should you have accepted Pakistani soverignty over your livelihood and accepted it because they were more powerful? Should Ukraine fall over too just because they should, according to one powerful man?
Comparing pre Nucelar Pakistan's cut off forces in Bangladesh in 71 to China's present forces is ridiculous. But I never mentioned anything about Taiwan giving up, I specifically talked about what the world expected from a foreign country. I fully expect Taiwan to resist armed invasion as is their natural right. The country being invaded will always try to defend itself as they should. Whether the defense is successful or futile is matter for the invaded country's populace to decide.

Thank goodness we chose not to go to war in the 90's or the 2000's, just because China was weaker and the US etc stronger? Again you seem to struggle with the notion of morality in foreign policy. Why go to war with a fellow nuclear power over who has the biggest groin size?
Then why go to war with a nucelar power over a territory that is miles and miles away from you now?? If the risk of a hot nucelar was bad then its exponentially worse now. Atleast back then the US who had wargamed out hot nucelar war scenarios against a stronger and more nuclear USSR could have had a chance to wipe out China's first and second strike capabilities. Chinese nuclear warhead and delivery systems are much more numerous and proficient now than they were in the 90s and 2000s.

But the most important point is, I was not advocating for a US invasion of China int he 90sa nd early 2000s, I was trying to point out that at least back then a hot war with China was favourable and would have cost less western lives.

Check your war games and your assumptions. Intellectually it's been war gamed and the most likely outcome (dependant upon scenario) is a stalemate where the US is hurt early on, but many many more PLA troops die and any landing can't be sustained. Meanwhile like the events of Pearl Harbour, the US will strike back and China will pay a significant price. Yamamoto may or may not have stated "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" but in similar vein a sustained conflict hurts China more than the US, and Xi's and the CCP internal authority will come under significant strain, all for what, nationalism, pride, ego, reinforced destiny- again they all go back to the groin size issue again.
I would recommend that you look into more recent US literature about the wargaming scenario with China now. Not that wargames are an ineffable proof of concept.

Lets set a hypothetical scenario where the US and China have open military conflict over Taiwan and neither power uses nuclear weapons and has a pure conventional war.

The amount of firepower that China can generate now in 2025 dwarfs US pacific forces. Could the US force China to a stalemate if they divert large amounts of resources from elsewhere to the Pacific? Maybe. But the cost in the number of lives will not be cheap. WIll the modern US population, a large part of whom are increasingly isolationist (maga does not exist in a vaccum) be supportive of their citizens dying so far away from home?

Reunification is not a CCP goal its a China goal, something the Chinese populace as a whole support and want. And not to sound too crass, but to an authoritarian system lives of soldiers will probably be cheaper than the lives of soldeirs in developed democratic nations.

As for Australia, no we don't want war but we do have a strong ethos of 'a fair go for all' and standing up for the vulnerable/ weak/ less fortunate. We will do whatever we can and more than most other countries of our size. Self interest is important, but East Timor showed we're willing to stick our necks out for the sake of others less fortunate than us. If the US stands with us, like Japan and other like minded countries I see a real reason for China to avoid conflict.
Standing upto to a weaker poorer country when you are militarily and tecchnologically superior and have the backing of the foremost superpower in the world is very different to standing upto a peer and in terms of Australia an overmatch much farther away from home.

As for Japan, assuming that Japan is going to militarily engagee with China over Taiwan without being attacked first is a very very very big assumption. Maybe Japan does pro actively engage with China as soon as Taiwan is attacked, maybe Japan only gets involved when China attacks US bases in Japan, or maybe Japan sits it out even if China only attacks the US bases in their country without attacking any Japanese bases. All big assumptions and something we wont know until missiles are actually flying.(something I hope never happens).

As for the Taiwanese. The only way they should reunify with the PRC is if they themselves chose to do so. Why should any country be forced to cede its soverignty under the threat of a gun whilst coerced. They have the right to choose, and considering how quickly people's freedoms evaporated in HK and Macau, you could understand why they would want nothing to do with the CCP and beg to be left alone in peace to govern themselves peacefully according to their values.
As some one from a small country surrounded in 3 sides by a stronger unfreindly nation, I fully support both Taiwan nd Ukraine and I hope Taiwan remains independent and Ukraine gets back all their territory including Crimea. But also as some one from a poorer weaker country, I know that might makes right. Armed reunification will happen if non armed reunification does not prevail, as to how much should the Taiwanese fight on, that is the decision of the Taiwanese themselves.

Rules based world order is a label, the west was and is the mightiest and we follow their rules. Right now we pay homage to the West and India and in the future we will have pay homage too India and China. Either way smaller nations like mine will adapt and follow the head honcho. The only solution to that is to have nukes, which is somethig that is impossible for my country and as Ukraine now and Taiwan in the future will show was always the only option.
 
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