India's Battle Tank Arjun Operationally Useless

[mysterious]

Here some data to see how Arjun compares to other current MBTs. Obviously, both Arjun's size and weight are within the range that is common for modern Western MBTs. It's got a decent power to weight ratio and relatively low ground pressure (so, should the number for ground pressure be optimistic, the actual ground pressure would still be within the norm)

Arjun mk.1
Length: 10.19 m / --- m (length overall w. gun forward vs. chassis length)
Width: 3.86 m
Height: 2.32 m
Clearance:0.45 m
Weight: 58.5 ton
Engine: 1400 hp
ptw: 23.9 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.84 kg/cm2

T-90S
Length: 9.53 m / 6.86 m
Width: 3.78 m
Height: 2.23 m
Clearance: 0.45 m
Weight: 46.5 ton
Engine: 1000 hp
ptw: 21.5 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.87 kg/cm2

T-72M1
Length: 9.53 m / 6.89m
Width: 3.59 m
Height: 2.23 m
Clearance: 0.46 m
Weight: 41.5 ton
Engine: 780 hp
ptw: 18.8 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.83 kg/cm2

T80U
Length: 9.66 m / 7.01 m
Width: 3.60 m
Height: 2.20 m
Clearance: 0.45 m
Weight: 46.0 ton
Engine: 1250 hp
ptw: 27.2 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.87 kg/cm2

Merkava IV
Length: 9.04 m / 8.78 m
Width: 3.72 m
Height: 2.66 m
Clearance: 0.46 m
Weight: 65 ton
Engine: 1500 hp
ptw: 23.1 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.90 kg/cm2

Leopard IIA6
Length: 11.29 m / 7.72 m
Width: 3.74 m
Height: 2.79 m
Clearance: 0.49 (rear) - 0.54 (front) m
Weight: 62.5 ton
Engine: 1500 hp
ptw: 24.0 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.93 kg/cm2

Leclerc
Length: 9.87 m / 6.88 m
Width: 3.71 m
Height: 2.53 m
Clearance: 0.5 m
Weight: 54.5 ton
Engine: 1500 hp
ptw: 27.5 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.90 kg/cm2

Challenger II
Length: 11.55 m / 8.33 m
Width: 3.52 m
Height: 2.50 m
Clearance: 0.5 m
Weight: 62.5 ton
Engine: 1200 hp
ptw: 19.2 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.90 kg/cm2

Finally, just for fun:

PzKw VI Tiger (Ausf B. Konigstiger)
Length: 8.5 m / 6.9 m (10.3 m / 7.3 m)
Width: 3.7 m (3.8 m)
Height: 2.9 m (3.1 m)
Clearance: 0.47 m (0.5 m)
Weight: 56 ton (69 ton)
Engine: 600 hp (700 hp)
ptw: 10.7 hp/t (10.3 hp/t)
ground pressure: 1.04 kg/cm2 (1.07 kg/cm2)

Are you trying to tell me that instead of making a tank suitable to subcontinental terrain; India just built Arjun to compete with Western cavalry power? Western tanks are built according to their terrain and so Arjun's features are not exactly what you'd want a tank to have in the terrain that its going to be used.

 

[shankercbe]

okay here we go .

http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=51&num=13409
http://www.thestatesman.net/page.arcview.php?date=2004-08-04&usrsess=1&clid=2&id=78608

Actually if you can post a link without the word India in it or Indian related(like JDW), people will believe you more.

these sites have nothing to do with india .. anyway if you chose not to believe it and like to live in your own world then nobody can help you.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Ok since you like to put it that way.

What operation theatre was Arjun designed for? The mountain terrain in Kashmir? Or the steep cliffs of Tibet? In both these cases Arjun weight would limit its capability in combat. A platoon of infantry has more use than a Arjun company. And before you start bragging about the advanced systems onboard Arjun MK2, think about what kind of operation theatre the system was design for. In this case it doesn't suit in very well with conditions on the most likely battle-fronts. Arjun's weight simply prevent it from being an effective platform in India's situation dispite the massive upgrades and advanced systems on board Arjun.

About your little "living in my own world" part. I've spent four months training in the army. So if you like to count living in the barracks as living in a different world, yeah then I like to live in my world. Otherwise, you are the one who needs help.

 

[tatra]

Are you trying to tell me that instead of making a tank suitable to subcontinental terrain; India just built Arjun to compete with Western cavalry power? Western tanks are built according to their terrain and so Arjun's features are not exactly what you'd want a tank to have in the terrain that its going to be used.

Not at all. I'm just illustrating that statements like "too heavy" and "too big" are relative: you're always comparing to something, whether it be another tank or tanks (in which case there's the 'western' and the 'eastern' design philosophy) or to a purpose or place (in which case the considerations of terrain come in).

Now, by saying Arjun is too heavy and too big are you trying to tell us that India would never buy a Western tank?

As for western tanks being built for their terrain: do you really think that all of the US (M1) looks the same, do you think the terrain in and arround Israel (Merkava) is similar to that in continental Europe (Challenger II, Leo II, Le Clerc, Ariete) or the US or Korea (K1) or Japan (Type 90) and that there is no difference in terrain between US, Europe and these far eastern countries? Yet the tanks produced in all these countries are similar in size and weight (55-65 tons). That is probably because they were designed, not so much with a particular terrain but with a particular threat in mind, namely Russian or Russian style armor. The weight of the tank is a function of its protection level which in turn is a function of the penetration power and range of the soviet-russian 100-125mm guns on the tanks belonging to the opposition.

 

[mysterious]

But you cant have that heavy of a tank for India! I'm not going to go on repeating the reasons as to why I say that as they have already been dealth with by a dozen people on this forum in a number of threads.

 

[shankercbe]

Ok since you like to put it that way.

What operation theatre was Arjun designed for? The mountain terrain in Kashmir? Or the steep cliffs of Tibet? In both these cases Arjun weight would limit its capability in combat. A platoon of infantry has more use than a Arjun company. And before you start bragging about the advanced systems onboard Arjun MK2, think about what kind of operation theatre the system was design for. In this case it doesn't suit in very well with conditions on the most likely battle-fronts. Arjun's weight simply prevent it from being an effective platform in India's situation dispite the massive upgrades and advanced systems on board Arjun.

About your little "living in my own world" part. I've spent four months training in the army. So if you like to count living in the barracks as living in a different world, yeah then I like to live in my world. Otherwise, you are the one who needs help.

i dont forsee any tank battles in the "mountain terrain in kashmir " nor in the steep cliffs of tibet . tanks cannot be effectively used in both of these areas both by india and pakistan or china . ofcourse they will be used in plains. apart from jammu and kashmir punjab,rajasthan and gujarat border pakistan.
i am not very clear about the feasibility of tanks in the indo-china border.and i dont mean to insult your four months training in the army. really i respect army personnel , irrespective of their nationality , but if you can think so much about the feasibility of this tank , then the indian strategists with years of experience in military are clearly no fools either. if the indian army top brass had even a slight doubt about this tank , believe me they wouldnt have accepted it .dont you think they would've tested this tank on the most likely battle-fronts areas to see how it fares ?

and i dont understand this mentality of not trusting the "indian media " . the indian media is world class in every sense . you can ask you pak media friends if you have any !

 

[tatra]

But you cant have that heavy of a tank for India! I'm not going to go on repeating the reasons as to why I say that as they have already been dealth with by a dozen people on this forum in a number of threads.

I am not saying the Arjun is the ideal tank for India or Indian terrain. Perhaps it is that not at all. That does not make it a bad tank, however. Just poorly suited for the task at hand. The point is that there is a difference between a) the qualities of the tank, b) the wisdom of its development and c) its procurement for the Indian army.

 

[P.A.F]

well the only way for it to be proved a good tank is in battle

 

[Pathfinder-X]

i dont forsee any tank battles in the "mountain terrain in kashmir " nor in the steep cliffs of tibet . tanks cannot be effectively used in both of these areas both by india and pakistan or china . ofcourse they will be used in plains. apart from jammu and kashmir punjab,rajasthan and gujarat border pakistan.
i am not very clear about the feasibility of tanks in the indo-china border.and i dont mean to insult your four months training in the army. really i respect army personnel , irrespective of their nationality , but if you can think so much about the feasibility of this tank , then the indian strategists with years of experience in military are clearly no fools either. if the indian army top brass had even a slight doubt about this tank , believe me they wouldnt have accepted it .dont you think they would've tested this tank on the most likely battle-fronts areas to see how it fares ?

and i dont understand this mentality of not trusting the "indian media " . the indian media is world class in every sense . you can ask you pak media friends if you have any !

Every nation's media contains a certain degree of propaganda. Take the Americans for example, can you say their news analyst has absolutely no biased opinion in it? A nation's media often exaggerate their military's capability. But if judge by experts or media from different, the level of bias generally tend to decrease.

There were several articles showing sharp contrast to what the articles your link has provided. It will, without a doubt, raise question in public's mind about who to believe. You cannot blame on people mentality.

After 30-Year Wait, India Rejects Arjun for Combat
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI


After waiting 30 years for its indigenously designed Arjun main battle tank, the Indian Army has decided the tank is too heavy for combat.

“It has been decided to use the Arjun main battle tank only for training purposes and not for combat purposes,†said a senior Indian Army official. He added that the Arjun’s weight makes the tank difficult to transport and inhibits maneuverability.

Quote:
The Arjun order also has been trimmed from 124 to 80 since it will be used only for training, said the Army official. The first batch of five Arjuns were delivered Aug. 7 to the Army by the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi in Chennai.


Another Army official said the 58.5-ton Arjun tank is much heavier and wider than the 46.5-ton Russian T-90 tank, which limits its operational mobility.

Problems plagued the Arjun from its inception in 1974 by India’s state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation. The first prototype was conceived in 1984, but the Army found a variety of problems involving its weight, engine overheating and armor protection. Arjun was planned to be ready in 1990 and mass produced by 1997.

Following delays, the Indian government struck a memorandum of understanding with Russia in 2000 to procure 310 T-90 tanks. Under the deal, 180 tanks are to be produced under licensed production at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory, and the remaining 130 will be provided to India either fully or partially built, and final assembly would be done in India.

An official of the Indian Ordnance Factories Board, which controls the Avadi factory, said production priorities at Avadi have been shifted, leaving only one assembly line to build Arjuns, while the other two will produce T-90 tanks and upgrade T-72 tanks.

A senior Indian Defence Ministry official would not confirm the Arjun order had been reduced, and claimed that the tank’s problems have been fixed.

The official acknowledged, however, there is a transportation problem because the Arjun is too large for the vehicles already used to transport the T-72 and T-90. Special transport vehicles have been ordered to move the Arjuns, he said.

The Arjuns will cost about $5 million apiece, sources said, which is higher than the T-90 tank because the cost of imported components in the tank have increased from 27 percent to 60 percent.

Early this year, an Israeli Lahat anti-tank missile was mounted on an Arjun tank. The Arjun has a 120mm gun, a 7.22mm machine gun for ground operations and a 12.7mm machine gun for the anti-aircraft role.

The 120mm gun has been procured from France’s GIAT Industries, the engine from MTU and the transmission system from Renk, both of Germany, and the fire control system from Oldelft Instruments of the Netherlands.

The above article is from Defencenews.com, if you have subscription, here is the link

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3131494&C=asiapac

btw, I serve in Canada, not Pakistan.

 

[tatra]

Every nation's media contains a certain degree of propaganda. Take the Americans for example, can you say their news analyst has absolutely no biased opinion in it? A nation's media often exaggerate their military's capability. But if judge by experts or media from different, the level of bias generally tend to decrease.

IMHO, there is always some bias in particular newsmedia. Else, how can media distinguish themselves from one another and direct competitors. Propaganda, however, has a different connotation and I cannot agree to the statement that every nation's media contain a certain degree of propaganda. That remark itself reflects a bias in the perception of the media in general and/or in a particular area/region of the world.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=propaganda
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bias

 

[Awang se]

This whole thread is kind of single sided, inflame by rivalry between two countries.

 

[gf0012-aust]

This whole thread is kind of single sided, inflame by rivalry between two countries.

Agree, If it doesn't evolve into something more useful it runs the risk of getting closed.

Can people stop the slagging off at another countries technology just because it's the course de rigeur??

It's not helping anyone and turns useful subjects and topics into a mess.

 

[webmaster]

Lets stay on course with the topic. This isn't media related thread but about India's MBT Arjun.

 

[The Watcher]

so whats next with India's mbt needs? i see arjun II taking shape with less weight.

 

[mysterious]

Was proper 'metal diet' the way for the next version to prove itself? Just playing!

 

[tatra]

There are two questions that are of interest if Arjun is not suitable for large scale use in the Indian Army:
1) What will it use then? More T90S or is the Tank Ex (T72M1 with complete Arjun) a more viable and attractive option for the Indian Army?
2) If adoption of Arjun is limited by logistical problems due to its size and weight, then what are the prospects of Bhim (South African 155mm T6 on Arjun chassis)? Surely this SPG (which btw is a kick ass piece of equipment) is even heavier and bulkier than Arjun!

 

[gf0012-aust]

and for those who don't know about Bhim:

Bhim T-6
Both the 105mm Abbot and 130mm Catapult M-46 self-propelled howitzers are are being phased out from active service due to age and mechanical problems. A self-propelled artillery competition -- pitting the Celsius (Bofors) FH-77AD against the Bhim SP System [with the Denel LIW T-6] -- is underway to replace these systems as part of its Field Artillery Rationalization Plan.

The main advantages that the Celsius FH-77AD offers over the Denel T-6 is that it is based on a proven and easy to maintain 6X6 Volvo truck chassis. Compared with full-tracked self-propelled artillery system, the 6x6 FH-77 BD would have a number of advantages, including greater strategic mobility and lower procurement and life-cycle costs.

The new Denel T-6 vehicle is called the Bhim after a hero from Indian folklore (Bhima). The turret has ammunition-loading hatches on the right and left, and a conveyor belt may be extended from either of these hatches for ammunition loading or direct feeding of the gun from a ground pile. There are two hatches on the roof of the turret. The vehicle is equipped with GPS and a fire control computer for direct laying of the gun, or firing at a target where the location is known.

The Bhim system has achieved a sustained rate of fire of 116 rounds at a desert firing range in Pokhran in western India. The cost of procuring 520 such howitzers eventually is estimated at $972 million. The Arjun tank chassis to be used by the Bhim with the Denel T-6 turret, in contrast, has yet to enter full service. The MoD has approved building 120 Arjuns, but with arrival of the Russian T-90 main battle tank, the Arjun chassis could be diverted to Bhim. The Bhim is favored to win the Indian SP Howitzer competition, primarily due to the potential for domestic production. However, the first examples will likely not see military service until at least 2004.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/bhim.htm

 

[tatra]

The T72 chasis didn't quite cut it as base for the T6 turret

 

[dabrownguy]

I think this is the right move. If indeed the IA did not find the Arjun satisfactory to their personal needs than I would suggest that they purchase Bhim and Tank Ex. The advantage of Tank Ex over the T-90 is the fire power and probabily the most agile chasis. This would also keep the industry active. If IA does not do this then certianly we know that politics or arms mafia is behind this.

 

[neel24neo]

arjun isnt dead yet.sure it had some trouble with its systems and also the much media hyped logistics problem,but these are(most of them)engineering problems...which does have solutions.as for the rail wagons needed to transport arjun,i dont see why it cannot be solved by improvisation(during short term)and custom made wagons(long term).it isnt wise,as i see,to give a premature verdict on the tank,because its just the beginning...teething problems are bound to happen.as they say,"rome wasnt built in a day" or was it?whatever pitfalls this project had to face gets categorized as "experience"and that is part of learning curve,which would be more than handy in future projects.
AFAIK arjun(and its future variants) along with t-90 would form the core of indian army armoured regiments in the years to come.tank-ex was just an experiment.i donot see it entering service with indian army.