India's Battle Tank Arjun Operationally Useless

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T

The Watcher

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India's Battle Tanks Arjun Operationally Useless

Aug 25, 2004, 01:33

NEW DELHI: India's defence production authorities handed over the first batch of first five "indigenously-developed" Arjun main battle tanks (MBTs) to the Indian army on August-8.

However, according to diplomatic sources, the Indian army chief has expressed skepticism about combat worthiness and operational mobility of the tank.

The main objections raised by the army headquarters are that with its excessive weight and width, the Arjun tank has poor operational mobility.

It will not be possible to rapidly move it from one area of operation to another on the existing tank transporters on our rail network."

Secondly, the Arjun weighs 58.5 tonnes. As such, it outweighs the newly-inducted 46.5 tonnes T-90S Russian MBT by 12 tonnes. "Being heavier than the Russian substitute, it is too heavy to transport over most border bridges in India".
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Arjun is not only less manoeuvrable, but also suffers from recurring engine and fire-control-systems problems.

In a phenomenal move, Indian Naval Headquarters has made its deputy chief, Vice-Admiral S V Gopalachari, an OSD and attached him with the naval HQ.

Indian Coast Guard Director-General Suresh Mehta would replace him as the new deputy chief of the Indian Navy.

According to defence analysts, Vice-Admiral Gopalachari had concealed his illness, though he suffered from serve diabetes and other ailments.

Despite being in "low category" and media's criticism of his frail health, the Naval Headquarters had earlier cleared him for promotion as the flag officer in chief of the Southern Command at Kochi.

Now, Vice-Admiral S Bangara (not he) will take over the command at Kochi.

Analysts wonder whether Indian navy's new chief Admiral Arun Prakash would be to weed out the common malaise of pseudo-fitness from his organization.


URL of this article:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_001791.shtml
 
P

P.A.F

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bad news for india. they should cut the tank down abit and use smaller systems in it so the weight reduces but i don't think india is prepeared to do that as it will cost to much money and that can possibly become a completely new project.
 
S

shankercbe

New Member
'Arjun' has all attributes of excellent tank: Vij
Saturday, August 7 2004 18:50 Hrs (IST)

Chennai: Describing the main battle tank 'Arjun', handed over to the Indian Army in Chennai today (Aug 7, 2004) as having the attributes of an excellent tank, Chief of Army Staff Gen N C Vij said that it was better to have one's own equipment instead of depending on imported ones which would ultimately choke up the supply lines.

Speaking to journalists informally on the sidelines of the function at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, about 30 kms from Chennai, this afternoon, he said import content of the Arjun now around 50 per cent would come down to the affordable level of 20 per cent soon.

'Faster it is done, better it is', he said adding much depended on the accelerated production of more Arjun tanks.

Vij said the five Arjun tanks, now handed over to the Indian Army, would soon have a 'user field trials'. In terms of cost, Arjun was slightly more than the T-90, rolled out early this year from HVF, in Chennai.

The Army would have a judicious mix of T-72, T-90 and Arjun Tanks, he said.

The Chief of Army Staff said, 'We cannot develop such an advanced weapon system without the help and cooperation of the defence forces'.
PTI


http://news.indiainfo.com/2004/08/07/0708arjun.html


now people where did you get this news that the indian army chief says arjun is useless.
 
P

P.A.F

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hey i don't think that source is relyable. looks a bit fishy. give me a relyable source that would convince me ;)
 
P

P.A.F

New Member
...which is why no private indian company would like to build them. only 120 or so are to be built
 
T

tatra

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Verified Defense Pro
The problem seems to be size and weight RELATIVE TO T72/T90. Since when are those the standard?

IMHO Arjun is not a crappy failure. So it can't be moved across border bridges ... great, that means it will have to have a defensive role and for that role its size and weight may very well be an asset rather than a liability (just like the WWII Tigers).
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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tatra said:
The problem seems to be size and weight RELATIVE TO T72/T90. Since when are those the standard?

IMHO Arjun is not a crappy failure. So it can't be moved across border bridges ... great, that means it will have to have a defensive role and for that role its size and weight may very well be an asset rather than a liability (just like the WWII Tigers).
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Agree. The issue is what the doctrine was that influenced the design. Is the design at fault or is it the doctrine expectations.

It's easier to establish a more viable and realistic and useful doctrine than to endlessly criticise the platform.

I think Arjun in its second iteration will be a very different beast. Someone should be examining the RFT to see why there is an operational difference between what was first touted and what has evolved. I would bet london to a brick that the RFT has evolved and changed faster than the tanks design and devleopment. - If thats the case - then it's an issue of poor planning and procurement processes - not poor tank design.
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
dabrownguy said:
I don't trust the article. Seems like those articles that were made up or writtin by the dumbest reporters.
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Maybe, but there are known problems with Arjun, hence some of the recent Israeli involvement.

Dumb logistical decisions are typical of a project that falls off the rails (no pun intended), so it doesn't surprise me that there are now publicly declared probs.

I just think that the press goes overboard on stuff they know little about, and then the public gets all excited and treats it as "gospel". The Gripen saga is a good example for Pakistan. The Arjun appears to have the dubious honour of being demonised excessively.
 
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shankercbe

New Member
P.A.F said:
hey i don't think that source is relyable. looks a bit fishy. give me a relyable source that would convince me ;)
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okay here we go .

http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=51&num=13409

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=240827

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040804/main7.htm

http://www.thestatesman.net/page.arcview.php?date=2004-08-04&usrsess=1&clid=2&id=78608

http://www.123bharath.com/tamilnadu-india-news/index.php?action=fullnews&id=7079

if these dont convince you . then i suggest you come to India on a holiday trip and visit general vij and confirm it yourself :D: ..
 
T

tatra

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Verified Defense Pro
Here some data to see how Arjun compares to other current MBTs. Obviously, both Arjun's size and weight are within the range that is common for modern Western MBTs. It's got a decent power to weight ratio and relatively low ground pressure (so, should the number for ground pressure be optimistic, the actual ground pressure would still be within the norm)

Arjun mk.1
Length: 10.19 m / --- m (length overall w. gun forward vs. chassis length)
Width: 3.86 m
Height: 2.32 m
Clearance:0.45 m
Weight: 58.5 ton
Engine: 1400 hp
ptw: 23.9 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.84 kg/cm2

T-90S
Length: 9.53 m / 6.86 m
Width: 3.78 m
Height: 2.23 m
Clearance: 0.45 m
Weight: 46.5 ton
Engine: 1000 hp
ptw: 21.5 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.87 kg/cm2

T-72M1
Length: 9.53 m / 6.89m
Width: 3.59 m
Height: 2.23 m
Clearance: 0.46 m
Weight: 41.5 ton
Engine: 780 hp
ptw: 18.8 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.83 kg/cm2

T80U
Length: 9.66 m / 7.01 m
Width: 3.60 m
Height: 2.20 m
Clearance: 0.45 m
Weight: 46.0 ton
Engine: 1250 hp
ptw: 27.2 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.87 kg/cm2

Merkava IV
Length: 9.04 m / 8.78 m
Width: 3.72 m
Height: 2.66 m
Clearance: 0.46 m
Weight: 65 ton
Engine: 1500 hp
ptw: 23.1 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.90 kg/cm2

Leopard IIA6
Length: 11.29 m / 7.72 m
Width: 3.74 m
Height: 2.79 m
Clearance: 0.49 (rear) - 0.54 (front) m
Weight: 62.5 ton
Engine: 1500 hp
ptw: 24.0 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.93 kg/cm2

Leclerc
Length: 9.87 m / 6.88 m
Width: 3.71 m
Height: 2.53 m
Clearance: 0.5 m
Weight: 54.5 ton
Engine: 1500 hp
ptw: 27.5 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.90 kg/cm2

Challenger II
Length: 11.55 m / 8.33 m
Width: 3.52 m
Height: 2.50 m
Clearance: 0.5 m
Weight: 62.5 ton
Engine: 1200 hp
ptw: 19.2 hp/t
ground pressure: 0.90 kg/cm2

Finally, just for fun:

PzKw VI Tiger (Ausf B. Konigstiger)
Length: 8.5 m / 6.9 m (10.3 m / 7.3 m)
Width: 3.7 m (3.8 m)
Height: 2.9 m (3.1 m)
Clearance: 0.47 m (0.5 m)
Weight: 56 ton (69 ton)
Engine: 600 hp (700 hp)
ptw: 10.7 hp/t (10.3 hp/t)
ground pressure: 1.04 kg/cm2 (1.07 kg/cm2)
 
P

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
shankercbe said:
okay here we go .

http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=51&num=13409

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=240827

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040804/main7.htm

http://www.thestatesman.net/page.arcview.php?date=2004-08-04&usrsess=1&clid=2&id=78608

http://www.123bharath.com/tamilnadu-india-news/index.php?action=fullnews&id=7079

if these dont convince you . then i suggest you come to India on a holiday trip and visit general vij and confirm it yourself :D: ..
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Actually if you can post a link without the word India in it or Indian related(like JDW), people will believe you more.
 
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