Indian Nuclear & Missile Development, News & Discussions

dragonfire

New Member
Impressive achievement, but tests are very controlled. Using, both missiles that are same does not sound like a very relistic situation. I expect this is just a technology demostrator.
Tests are usualy in mostly a controlled environment but a range of parameters are laid down and the results are verified against objectives.

Also the missiles used were not the same a Dhanush missile was launched as the aggresor missile and a Prithvi missile based PAD (Prithvi Air Defense) system missile was launched as the interceptor missile.

Although there is a lot of similarities btw the two am sure they have branched out as different programs with diff objectives the PAD being an ABM system

Incidentaly now that the IGMDP (Integrated Guided Missile Development Program ) has wound up (having achieved sucess in almost all missile programs perhaps except maybe with Trishul) will MOD announce a Cruise missile program as the IGMDP was predominantly a Ballistic missile program
 
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abhaystgy

New Member
I don't know why India and Pakistan invest so much money in nuclear weapons while their people is STARVING.

Theoy should invest that money in the development of the country.
Can you live a life where you have no respect, no security? What's the use of good education and luxury if it is controlled by other. Buddy, security is more important than anything else in this world.
 

sunshin3

New Member
Can you live a life where you have no respect, no security? What's the use of good education and luxury if it is controlled by other. Buddy, security is more important than anything else in this world.
Respect is only important if you are not currently starving. IMO, without security, it is hard for a government to function effectively - but in India's case they still have not upgraded the antiquated rifles supplied to the Indian police (after the Mumbai attacks) - so India can't claim to be very serious about improving their security forces either.
 
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Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist
Sachin Parashar , TNN 27 August 2009, 12:38am IST
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NEW DELHI: The 1998 Pokhran II nuclear tests might have been far from the success they have been claimed to be. The yield of the thermonuclear explosions was actually much below expectations and the tests were perhaps more a fizzle rather than a big bang.

The controversy over the yield of the tests, previously questioned by foreign agencies, has been given a fresh lease of life with K Santhanam, senior scientist and DRDO representative at Pokhran II, admitting for the first time that the only thermonuclear device tested was a "fizzle". In nuclear parlance, a test is described as a fizzle when it fails to meet the desired yield.

Santhanam, who was director for 1998 test site preparations, told TOI on Monday that the yield for the thermonuclear test, or hydrogen bomb in popular usage, was much lower than what was claimed. Santhanam, who was DRDO's chief advisor, could well have opened up the debate on whether or not India should sign CTBT as claims that India has all the data required and can manage with simulations is bound to be called into question.

Based upon the seismic measurements and expert opinion from world over, it is clear that the yield in the thermonuclear device test was much lower than what was claimed. I think it is well documented and that is why I assert that India should not rush into signing the CTBT,'' Santhanam told TOI on Wednesday.

He emphasised the need for India to conduct more tests to improve its nuclear weapon programme.

The test was said to have yielded 45 kilotons (KT) but was challenged by western experts who said it was not more than 20 KT.

The exact yield of the thermonuclear explosion is important as during the heated debate on the India-

US nuclear deal, it was strenuously argued by the government's top scientists that no more tests were required for the weapons programme. It was said the disincentives the nuclear deal imposed on testing would not really matter as further tests were not required.

According to security expert Bharat Karnad, Santhanam's admission is remarkable because this is the first time a nuclear scientist and one closely associated with the 1998 tests has disavowed the government line. ``He is not just saying that India should not sign the CTBT, which I believe is completely against India's interests, but also that the 1998 thermonuclear device test was inadequate.

His saying this means that the government has to do something. Either you don't have a thermonuclear deterrent or prove that you have it, if you claim to have it,'' said Karnad.

Sources said that Santhanam had admitted that the test was a fizzle during a discussion on CTBT organised by IDSA. Karnad also participated in the seminar. He told TOI that no country has succeeded in achieving targets with only its first test of a thermonuclear device.

Two things are clear; that India should not sign CTBT and that it needs more thermonuclear device tests,'' said Santhanam.

The yield of the thermonuclear device test in 1998 has led to much debate and while western experts have stated that it was not as claimed, BARC has maintained that it stands by its assessment. Indian scientists had claimed after the test that the thermonuclear device gave a total yield of 45 KT, 15 KT from the fission trigger and 30 KT from the fusion process and that the theoretical yield of the device (200 KT) was reduced to 45 KT in order to minimise seismic damage to villages near the test range.
British experts, however, later challenged the claims saying that the actual combined yield for the fission device and thermonuclear bomb was not more than 20 KT.

Key Pokharan scientist R Chidambaram had described these reports as incorrect. He has also argued that computer simulations would be enough in future design.

Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist - India - NEWS - The Times of India

So the the rumour is true that Russia shipped a nuclear bomb to India on emergency basis after the first round of Indian nuclear detonations failed miserably and proved as duds.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist - India - NEWS - The Times of India

So the the rumour is true that Russia shipped a nuclear bomb to India on emergency basis after the first round of Indian nuclear detonations failed miserably and proved as duds.
There are also online sources that claim the same of the Pakistani and N. Korean nuke tests. Please be constructive and don't just seek only to antagonize Indian forum members. Your attitude reflects badly on you and not the Indian forum members, who have been restrained and mature despite your taunting.

There is much we can learn from each other, if you would only give it a chance.
 
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Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
There are also online sources that claim the same of the Pakistani nukes. Please be constructive and don't just seek only to antagonize Indian forum members. Your attitude reflects badly on you and not the Indian forum members, who have been restrained and mature despite you taunting.

There is much we can learn from each other, if you would only give it a chance.
I saw a link between the two (Rumours and this report) so I expressed my opinion.

Other then that, I have been avoding wasting my time on news related to India and concentrating on other more important news.
 

Rish

New Member
Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist
Sachin Parashar , TNN 27 August 2009, 12:38am IST
Print Email Discuss Bookmark/Share Save Comment Text Size: |

NEW DELHI: The 1998 Pokhran II nuclear tests might have been far from the success they have been claimed to be. The yield of the thermonuclear explosions was actually much below expectations and the tests were perhaps more a fizzle rather than a big bang.

The controversy over the yield of the tests, previously questioned by foreign agencies, has been given a fresh lease of life with K Santhanam, senior scientist and DRDO representative at Pokhran II, admitting for the first time that the only thermonuclear device tested was a "fizzle". In nuclear parlance, a test is described as a fizzle when it fails to meet the desired yield.

Santhanam, who was director for 1998 test site preparations, told TOI on Monday that the yield for the thermonuclear test, or hydrogen bomb in popular usage, was much lower than what was claimed. Santhanam, who was DRDO's chief advisor, could well have opened up the debate on whether or not India should sign CTBT as claims that India has all the data required and can manage with simulations is bound to be called into question.

Based upon the seismic measurements and expert opinion from world over, it is clear that the yield in the thermonuclear device test was much lower than what was claimed. I think it is well documented and that is why I assert that India should not rush into signing the CTBT,'' Santhanam told TOI on Wednesday.

He emphasised the need for India to conduct more tests to improve its nuclear weapon programme.

The test was said to have yielded 45 kilotons (KT) but was challenged by western experts who said it was not more than 20 KT.

The exact yield of the thermonuclear explosion is important as during the heated debate on the India-

US nuclear deal, it was strenuously argued by the government's top scientists that no more tests were required for the weapons programme. It was said the disincentives the nuclear deal imposed on testing would not really matter as further tests were not required.

According to security expert Bharat Karnad, Santhanam's admission is remarkable because this is the first time a nuclear scientist and one closely associated with the 1998 tests has disavowed the government line. ``He is not just saying that India should not sign the CTBT, which I believe is completely against India's interests, but also that the 1998 thermonuclear device test was inadequate.

His saying this means that the government has to do something. Either you don't have a thermonuclear deterrent or prove that you have it, if you claim to have it,'' said Karnad.

Sources said that Santhanam had admitted that the test was a fizzle during a discussion on CTBT organised by IDSA. Karnad also participated in the seminar. He told TOI that no country has succeeded in achieving targets with only its first test of a thermonuclear device.

Two things are clear; that India should not sign CTBT and that it needs more thermonuclear device tests,'' said Santhanam.

The yield of the thermonuclear device test in 1998 has led to much debate and while western experts have stated that it was not as claimed, BARC has maintained that it stands by its assessment. Indian scientists had claimed after the test that the thermonuclear device gave a total yield of 45 KT, 15 KT from the fission trigger and 30 KT from the fusion process and that the theoretical yield of the device (200 KT) was reduced to 45 KT in order to minimise seismic damage to villages near the test range.
British experts, however, later challenged the claims saying that the actual combined yield for the fission device and thermonuclear bomb was not more than 20 KT.

Key Pokharan scientist R Chidambaram had described these reports as incorrect. He has also argued that computer simulations would be enough in future design.

Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist - India - NEWS - The Times of India

So the the rumour is true that Russia shipped a nuclear bomb to India on emergency basis after the first round of Indian nuclear detonations failed miserably and proved as duds.
lmao did you infer that from the article?
 

funtz

New Member
:))

welcome to fancy land.


Right now there is a lobby trying to get India to break off the 123 agreement with USA.

This is a part of that effort.

As for the Nuclear tests, statements by the Prime Minister, head of project and near about everyone else are available and contrasting.
 

suryaaa

New Member
:))

welcome to fancy land.


Right now there is a lobby trying to get India to break off the 123 agreement with USA.

This is a part of that effort.

As for the Nuclear tests, statements by the Prime Minister, head of project and near about everyone else are available and contrasting.
Agreed ,but acoording to the various reports emerging now the siesmic reading's produced during the tests support the newly found argument.Anywayz according to the controversy man 'Santanam" we have credible deterrence against pakistan but not against china. Which we are not taking seriously till now.

Behind dud test row is nuke deal - dnaindia.com
 
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funtz

New Member
This is bigger than the controversy over the warheads, this is about the nuclear policy, political stance on CTBT and NPT.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I saw a link between the two (Rumours and this report) so I expressed my opinion.
This is your last warning. You have been asked time and time again to stop demonstrating malicious intent under the guise of innocent questions.

You know full well that you skate along the edges.

Any more veiled barbs and you're gone.
 

suryaaa

New Member
Well yes India Is obliged to its own commitments.But what about minimum deterrence against possible threat,if at all this is true.Dont forget that "Dr santhanam" was part of that project.

On other hand like you said this might be a cooked up story by left,coz they are loosing ground now.Well what ever it is its a serious issue for us to deal with.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
Sethna slams Kalam, says Pokhran II done in haste
PTI 1 September 2009, 08:21pm IST
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MUMBAI: Homi Sethna, a former top atomic boss, on Tuesday waded into the 1998 Pokhran row when he backed ex-DRDO scientist K Santhanam's assessment
that the nuclear test was not a full success and slammed former President A P J Abdul Kalam for rubbishing the claim.

"I fully support Santhanam and I stand by his statement that India needs more nuke tests to be conducted," Sethna, the guiding force behind India's first nuclear test in 1974, said.

Sethna now in his eighties suggested that Kalam, who was heading the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) when Santhanam was coordinating Pokhran-II, suggested that the missile man was no qualified authority to rubbish his former colleague's claim.

Simultaneously, another former chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) P K Iyengar alleged that the 1998 tests were done in haste at the bidding of the government of the day. A BJP-led NDA government headed by Atal Behari Vajpayee had just assumed office when India conducted the tests.

The comments by Sethna, who was the AEC chairman in 1974 came notwithstanding Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Kalam setting at rest the controversy over the 1998 nuclear tests.

Kalam said the only thermonuclear device (hydrogen bomb) tested produced the "desired yield".

But Sethna said "former president APJ Abdul Kalam was not a scientist and Santhanam is a physicist and he knew what he was talking.

"What does Kalam understand about physics? He can say anything as he was the President and a politician."

"What Santhanam said was absolutely correct," he added.

"What did he (Kalam) know about extracting, making explosive grade? He didn't know a thing. By being a president he appeared to wear the stature. He relied on atomic energy to gain additional stature," said Sethna about Kalam while talking to a TV channel.

"I don't like politicians to interfere specially lay politicians to interfere any more. I firmly believe that they should stay out. When we did the test... the first test there was no politician. It was a raw one. We were lucky that the whole thing collapsed," said Sethna, who in his days in the atomic establishment had the reputation of being a blunt, plainspeaking organisational leader.

Kalam had on August 27 said Pokhran II was a success rubbishing Santhanam's claim that the tests were a "fizzle".

Iyengar, who was among the three top atomic scientists who oversaw the 1974 tests, has already shared Santhanam's assessment and questioned official claims of success.

Iyengar suggested that in March 1998, two months before Pokhran-II, India's intelligence must have found out that the Pakistanis were about to test and that they were serious.

"Therefore, they (the new government in India) asked these people(scientists) to hurry up, do as fast as possible in all this extra pressure to be one up politically because BJP had just come to power," he said.

"If Pakistan fired an explosion before India what a common man in India would have thought," Iyengar added.

The Principal Scientific advisor of Government of India Dr R Chidambaram, who led the team of scientists for Pokhran-II, denied Santhanam's statement and said he had to explain scientifically why the tests were not fully successful.

Sethna slams Kalam, says Pokhran II done in haste - India - NEWS - The Times of India

It is not just Dr. Sathnam who was part of the India's nuclear project but also Homi Sethna (Fromer top atomic boss) now as well as former chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) P K Iyengar. and on top of that there is world community saying " we told you that Indian nuclear explosions were fizzles.

Must be hard for the Indians who introduced the nuclear age in South Asia in 1974 are still without a reliable bomb whereas their neighbour Pakistan has progressed ten fold.
 

dragonfire

New Member
Must be hard for the Indians who introduced the nuclear age in South Asia in 1974 are still without a reliable bomb whereas their neighbour Pakistan has progressed ten fold.
Wow

Pakistan has progressed Ten Fold when compared to India as far nuclear ordinance is concerned - Where did you get that Idea from :D On what basis is your conclusion from - From Test Yield results ? from number of warheads ? from total yield capacity of all warheads put together ? - just what is it

Stop Baiting Indian forum members with your invalidated and speculative conjectures

India has operationalised its nuclear Weponary and there is a formal command structure under the Nuclear Command Authority which directs the Strategic Nuclear Command, if you have seen the Indian PM's entourage recently his SPG team is carrying a briefcase which is supposed to have authorisation codes release mechanisms in the style of the Nuclear Football

India is estimated to have according to different sources anywhere between 45 to 200 nuclear weapons, it's delivery systems are primarily land based ballistic missile systems Agni I , II and III as well as Prithvi I, II and III as well as Air based systems based on Tu-22s as well as Tu-142s and IL-38SD bombers apart from the fighters of the IAF, The Kilo class subs are also armed with the nuclear capable Kulb missiles, apart from other delivery mechanisms.

Dont worry India has a No First Use Policy

As far as Pakistan is concerned it has earned the distinction of being a mass proliferator of Nuclear technology which it developed based on chinese technological inputs as well designs, The Father of your Nuclear Program had confessed to Proliferation of Nuclear technology to Iran, North Korea and Libya. Earlier in his career he is according to the Dutch Prime Minister Ruud Lubbers stolen Nuclear Technology as well blue prints for gas centrifuges while working there, all this and more is available on the web from fairly unbiased sources and not blogs, you have in earlier posts demonstrated your capability for searching the net or googling for info, pl go ahead and search about the stuff mentioned above in case you already dont know

A note to moderators - in case you decide to delete my post, which is something i noticed on a previous occasion, i would like to point out that i waited for 2 days since this post which is clearly on a baiting trip so that it can have response/reaction from the moderator board, which wasnt forthcoming
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A note to moderators - in case you decide to delete my post, which is something i noticed on a previous occasion, i would like to point out that i waited for 2 days since this post which is clearly on a baiting trip so that it can have response/reaction from the moderator board, which wasnt forthcoming
A note to you.

This has been under discussion by the Mods for the last 2 days. We actually all have real jobs as well as this, and even though we will try and react as quickly as we can, our real work will take priority.

For various reasons not all Mods have been available. For various reasons we do not make unilateral decisions until we have a fair response back in from all of us involved. Its not a dictatorship.

If you have an issue with the Mod response then take it up through approp channels - but reacting in the open does nothing to serve your credibility either.

If any of your posts have been edited or deleted then I'd suggest that the Mod involved thought that your own behaviour or style was intemperate or inapprop as well.

If you continue to have an issue then take it up with Web - or any of the SuperMods (Brown coloured font in our names)

Just note, we all talk to each other, and if one of us is accused of failing or acting inapprop we will take it up with each other. There is no such thing as a PM when it comes to accusations of negligence.
 

powerslavenegi

New Member
While the origin of Pakistan's nuclear programme are known to the entire whord, may I know from the esteemed members on this board from where is this news about Russia supplying nukes to India being pulled out from ?

I would rest my case if even 1 such article from credible sources is posted on this board. India's record in nuclear non proliferation has been exemplary and spotless infact that is why it got concessions and special treatment from the NSG .
 

powerslavenegi

New Member
As for the yield of a nuke device well no one outside of the test team will come to know of the exact numbers and this is true for all the tests done till date by all the countries.

Seismic measurements by the NPA's and even other agencies are not reliable infact they were proved wrong with the recent underestimation of the NoKo's nuclear test which they first thought was a field explosion of a huge conventional ammo dump.
 

dragonfire

New Member
Irrespective of the contested actual yields of the thermonuclear device in Pokhran II and despite calls for further testing from different segments of the scientific as well as political community; India is committed to the self declared morotorium on nuclear testing as well as it is going to stick to iots stand on being a non signatory to the CTBT in its present form. The same is detailed in the news report below quoting the Indian Prime Minister from his speech in the G20 meet

India committed to moratorium on nuclear testing: PM
September 29, 2009 11:38 IST

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh Tuesday stated that India was committed to voluntary unilateral moratorium on nuclear testing.

However, the PM added that the global non-proliferation regime has not succeeded in preventing nuclear proliferation.

Dr Singh was speaking on India's refusal to sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty and the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty at the recently concluded G20 summit.

The PM assured that as a nuclear weapon state and a responsible member of the international community, India will participate constructively in the negotiations of a Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty in the Conference on Disarmament.

"India is proud of its non-proliferation record and is committed to global efforts for preventing the proliferation of all weapons of mass destruction," said Dr Singh

"Global non-proliferation, to be successful, should be universal, comprehensive and non-discriminatory and linked to the goal of complete nuclear disarmament," he added.

India committed to moratorium on nuke testing: PM : Rediff.com news
This is reflective of India's official stand on the same issue. Also India has advanced capabilities in super computing which is supposed to be used for further simulations. The debated yield is that it was alleged to have been in the range of 20kt and not 45 kt as claimed after the test, IMHO the 20kt yield weapon is also a WMD capabale of leveling a city if accurately used. However there have been reports from the media that this yield weapon is not sufficient for warheads on ICBMs and the Long range Agni as well as in the under development SLBM for effective second strike
 
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