Indian Navy Kitty Hawk Deal

[swerve]

Sorry 1,250,000 what? This is a bit of a throw away line that does not make sense....

What he means is 125 000 tons. Indian usage is 1,25,000 - 1.25 lakhs (1 lakh = 100 thousand). The next step up isn't a million, but a but a crore, i.e. ten million. And it's customary to omit the thing being counted if it's knowable from the context.

CSL is Cochin Shipyard Limited.

 

[alexsa]

What he means is 125 000 tons. Indian usage is 1,25,000 - 1.25 lakhs (1 lakh = 100 thousand). The next step up isn't a million, but a but a crore, i.e. ten million. And it's customary to omit the thing being counted if it's knowable from the context.

CSL is Cochin Shipyard Limited.

Thanks and noted. The point I was trying to make is tonnage (noramally epress in DWT) is not an indicator of capacity and dimensions and the strength fo the hard stand are much more important. From the website it appears their largest dock for ship repair (at 125000 DWT) is only 45m wide and you will not be able to use half the carne due to deck overhang. Add to this the depth is only 12m. It would be a challenge to get a 'super carrier' in here. Looking athte Kitty Hawk she has a water line beam of 40m (bit squeezy for hull work particualry under the flight and it may not be deep enough.

The problem wiht rating dock on DWT is the ships go in at light ship. For cargo ships the differnece between light ship and laoded (DWT) is massive so a large ship will dock a much smaller draft than it summer laod line. The same is not true of warships as thier uplift (store, aircraft, fuel crew etc) much less than a cargo ship so they tend to be closer to their laoded draft. Kitty hawk has a loaded draft of 12m. The critical part here is sill height and they don't give this in te web page. I would suggest it is much less than 12m of the dock depth is only 12m to allow for cason drainage and bunding.

 

[funtz]

The other issue is even with a dock with sufficient weight capacity width is a common restirction. Look at Asutralia, we have floating docks that have an uplift cpacity sufficinet for the LHD's ordered BUT they lack the width. the extreame beam of the Kittyhwk is 68m whcih is wider than many graving docks. This is often compensated doe by putting the overhand over the side of the dock but tsi cannot be don for docks using gantry crains with rails on both side of the dock.

The point is it is not that simple.

My o my 68m

The closest thing would be that Pipavav shipyard which is still U-C looking at the 2008 year end for complition with a dry dock of 680m L X 65m W X 14m D (not given on webpage).

Not everyones cup of tea these super carriers.

The one at CSL is not only smaller (length X width) for something like a 300mX68m ship, it is also occupied for the coming years with the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) project.

The lack of shipbuilding capacity will sure make the navy stall for some time, i wonder if they will be able to keep on commisioning ships faster than they decomm. them, domestic ones are too slow and few in numbers, the Russian orders are not coming in fast enough, China is out of the question, Koreans have a full book, japanese will have full books too and wont construct war ships for others (and be very expensive i guess) the western world will also be too expensive.

 

[Sea Toby]

Alexsa: Look at Australia, we have floating docks that have an uplift capacity sufficient for the LHD's ordered BUT they lack the width.

Garden Island's Capt. Cook engraving dock, or dry dock, is 1,140 feet (345 meters) long, 147 feet (45 meters) wide, and 45 feet (14 meters) deep. The Canberra class LHD's dimension is 760 feet (230.8 meters) long, 105 feet (32.0 meters) wide, and 23.5 feet (7.18 meters) deep. Yes, the Canberra class LHD can fit into the Capt. Cook dry dock. What made you think they couldn't?

Australia chose to have Spain built the Canberras, the hulls, for technical personnel and economic reasons, not because they wouldn't fit the engraving dock.

Information from Wiki.

 

[Sea Toby]

As I attempt to find information on the Cochin engraving dock, I find from Wiki these dimensions: 252 meters long x 41 meters wide x 8.4 meters deep.

As I attempt to find information on the new indigenious Indian aircraft carrier, I find from Wiki and other sources these dimensions: 253 meters long x 58 meters wide x 8.2 meters deep. These are overall numbers, not at water level. These ships are supposed to be around 37,500 tons displacement.

As I attempt to find information on the Vikramaditya(ex-Gorshov), I find these dimensions: 273.1 meters long x ? meters wide x 8.2 meters deep overall. I also find at water level 243 meters long x 32.7 meters wide x 8.3 meters deep. This ship is reported to be around 44,000 tons displacement.

I have not been able to find the overall beam of the Vikramaditya, nor have I been able to find the water level length or beam of the new indigenous India aircraft carrier.

I assume since the new indigenous carriers will be around 230 meters long at the water level and 33 meters in beam at the water level. I have not found any official numbers. I wish I could find these numbers. Does anyone know exactly these numbers?

 

[alexsa]

Alexsa: Look at Australia, we have floating docks that have an uplift capacity sufficient for the LHD's ordered BUT they lack the width.

Garden Island's Capt. Cook engraving dock, or dry dock, is 1,140 feet (345 meters) long, 147 feet (45 meters) wide, and 45 feet (14 meters) deep. The Canberra class LHD's dimension is 760 feet (230.8 meters) long, 105 feet (32.0 meters) wide, and 23.5 feet (7.18 meters) deep. Yes, the Canberra class LHD can fit into the Capt. Cook dry dock. What made you think they couldn't?

Australia chose to have Spain built the Canberras, the hulls, for technical personnel and economic reasons, not because they wouldn't fit the engraving dock.

Information from Wiki.

You have misread my commnet and please note the refernce was to floating docks. In addition I made no comment on the why the LHD is being built overseas.

I am aware of the graving dock size at ADI. Cairncross can also take the LHD vessels while the floating dock at Forgacs cannot despite theroretically having the uplift. The point I was making is that DWT uplift is a very poor indicator of actual capacity on the basis of dimensions and applied laod to the dock floor.

In other words using values like 125000 DWT is not the definative indicator of dock capability.

 

[Salty Dog]

General characteristics of the Kiev class CGH (from Wiki):

Length: 273 m (896 ft)
Beam: 32.6 m (107 ft)
Draught: 10 m (33 ft)

Dimensions (m) from FAS & Global Security:
249.5-257.0 meters long waterline
273.0-274.0 meters long overall
32.6-32.7 meters waterline beam
53.0 meters flight deck width
9.5 meters draft standard
12.0 meters draft mean full load

 

[Salty Dog]

USS Kitty Hawk to Participate in RIMPAC 2008

Wednesday, June 11, 2008

From Commander, U.S. Pacific Fleet Public Affairs

Commander, U.S. Pacific Fleet announced June 9 the aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63) will replace USS George Washington (GW) (CVN 73) in the Rim of the Pacific (RIMPAC) 2008 Exercise scheduled to take place in the Hawaiian operating area from June 29 through July 31.

A fire occurred onboard GW on May 22 while the ship was at sea. The ship is currently in port at Naval Air Station North Island, San Diego, conducting repairs to spaces and equipment affected by the fire. The timeline for repairs to the ship has not yet been determined.

Once repairs to the ship are complete, USS George Washington will replace USS Kitty Hawk as the United States Navy's forward deployed aircraft carrier in the Pacific.

RIMPAC, hosted by Commander, U.S. Pacific Fleet, demonstrates the U.S. Navy's commitment to working with our global partners in protecting the maritime freedom as a basis for global prosperity and to ensure stability throughout the Pacific.

RIMPAC has been conducted since 1971. This year's exercise consists of 10 nations, 35 ships, six submarines, over 150 aircraft and 20,000 Sailors, Airmen, Marines, Soldiers and Coast Guardsmen. Units from Australia, Canada, Chile, Japan, Netherlands, Peru, Republic of Korea, Singapore, United Kingdom and the U.S. are scheduled to participate.

 

[alexsa]

Just realised I appear to have underquote the extreme beam of KittyHawk. According to the vessel web page is is 86m.

http://www.kittyhawk.navy.mil/command/stats.html

 

[exported_kiwi]

Why would the Indians want the ole Kittyhawk? Yep, she's a big ole sucker but she's old and would definitely need so much work as to make her too expensive, even before the airwing , crewing and operating expenses were taken to account. I'd have thought that the IN has had a bad enough experience with the Gorshkov to not want to "go there' with old CVs anymore. What's happening to their indigenous carrier?

 

[funtz]

No ones selling or buying anything.

It will be a sight to see though.

86 meters wide 326 meters long, damn that really must be something else. The most amazing thing i have seen is that gigantic Russian helicopter serving with the IAF, some military systems are really a sight to see.

 

[swerve]

Why would the Indians want the ole Kittyhawk? Yep, she's a big ole sucker but she's old and would definitely need so much work as to make her too expensive, even before the airwing , crewing and operating expenses were taken to account. I'd have thought that the IN has had a bad enough experience with the Gorshkov to not want to "go there' with old CVs anymore. What's happening to their indigenous carrier?

The Indians don't want her, haven't asked for her, & haven't been offered her.

The story about a possible started with journalistic speculation, & quickly blew up on the web despite a complate lack of evidence. The authorities ignored it until directly asked, when they denied it. The US defence secretary treated it as a joke, when asked by a journalist. Too ridiculous an idea to dignify with a formal denial, fit only to be laughed at.

 

[outsider]

Man, this thread is going to run and run.

 

[AegisFC]

Man, this thread is going to run and run.

No it won't, it is being closed since it no longer serves a purpose.