Indian Navy Kitty Hawk Deal

[Generalissimo]

The elderly oil fired super-carrier USS Kitty Hawk, set to strike from the Naval List in 2008, is being coveted by an up and coming regional power.


The super carrier, USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63), is the last conventionally fueled aircraft carrier still in active service with the US Navy. She is set to be replaced next year by the new USS George Bush (CVN-77). In today’s Calcutta Telegraph a story emerged about the Indian Navy unofficially looking into acquiring the ship. India is in the middle of a large scale (on the terms of some $60 Billion) arms race with neighbor and sworn enemy Pakistan. They are buying submarines from France, fighter aircraft from Russia, AWACS gear from Israel as well as a couple of C-130J's from the United States.

The 80,000 ton Kitty Hawk, which was commissioned the same year as the Cuban Missile Crisis, is the oldest super carrier in active service. India could only expect another ten-fifteen years of life out of the vessel at the most (in 1990 the USN declared that she only had twenty years of service life left in her). She would be expensive to operate and require a crew somewhere in the neighborhood of 4000~ trained sailors. However this may not be prohibitive as the Indian Navy is planning to have two 40,000ton medium sized aircraft carriers of a local design with 1500 man crews afloat by 2014. India has operated small carriers of former Dutch, British and Soviet design since the 1960s and has lots of experience. If India went for the two for one concept of canceling their un-built flattops and could talk Washington into it, the "Hawk" could be headed to warmer waters permanently....

I'm sure that many of you have already heard this news but I didn't see any discussion here about it.

This would be a huge deal. The implications for the US-India relationship are very large so it would affect Asia's balance of power quite a bit. If this deal went through it would be a major set back for Russia too, for obvious reasons.

But I'll believe it when I see the ink dry on an official agreement.

Any thoughts?

 

[funtz]

Indian Navy thread

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3959&page=73

 

[Joe Hall]

Kitty Hawk to India????

...get some much needed cash or trade from it. And if they turn on us, we know where it is and how to stop it. Go For It!

 

[Sea Toby]

I think the Kitty Hawk is too old and too big for the Indians. I am not aware their drydocks are that huge, maybe for the Gorshov, but not for the Kitty Hawk. With the Indians deciding to spend an extra 800 million on the Gorshov, and with a 2012 delivery, I would expect India to go that route. But I must say the Russians and Indians were able to make this new deal with the Americans looking to horn in. I still think India would be better off with a new Queen Elizabeth class ship.

 

[Jon K]

I still think India would be better off with a new Queen Elizabeth class ship.

...available half-complete after the cancellation of RN order? (As an euroweenie I'm hoping the best possible future for RN, but still think that 2 CV's are a sign of megalomania these days...)

 

[Sea Toby]

With the French agreeing to build one of their own, I don't see the British backing out. You really need a larger air group aboard a ship to sustain a larger number of missions. At the current time, in my opinion the British could cut their air forces a bit more than they can cut the two carriers.

Look how much the Spanish and Australians are spending on their new BPE/LHDs. Check to see how much the Italian carrier costs. Add how much the American LCS costs? Ships aren't cheap anymore, steel is cheap compared to combat data systems.

If you want a say in the world, pay up. Two big carriers provide much more air power than three little carriers. The world has grown up, their air defenses are getting better and better, to the point many in Australia worry whether the JSF will be enough. The Russians and Chinese are selling and building very good aircraft these days.

The days of naval fleets of 50 ships is over. Outside the United States in the west, I don't see many navies having over 20 to 30 sea going ships in the future, and that is counting submarines. Fleets will be filled out with some numbers of OPVs. There won't be many navies with more than 5 or so landing ships either outside the US.

How did the British ever feel they could build more than 6-8 Type 45s to begin with when the other Horizon destroyers navies were satisfied with 2?

 

[Dave H]

It may sound heartless but I was ever so annoyed at good old Gordon Brown a couple of weeks back. There He was announcing that the poor of India will be given £800 million of UK taxpayers money over the next 4 years. India has a large military and numerous procurement programmes. Now unless the money is a sweetener for some military deals (Hawk?) I think that money would be better spent on Her Majestys armed forces. Heavy lift for the army or more F35'S for the navy. I dont think India needs the cash.

 

[swerve]

...

How did the British ever feel they could build more than 6-8 Type 45s to begin with when the other Horizon destroyers navies were satisfied with 2?

They aren't satisfied, they want more, but decided the Horizon is too expensive. Hence the FREDA, the air-defence variant of the FREMM. A bit less capable, but significantly cheaper.

 

[merocaine]

It may sound heartless but I was ever so annoyed at good old Gordon Brown a couple of weeks back. There He was announcing that the poor of India will be given £800 million of UK taxpayers money over the next 4 years. India has a large military and numerous procurement programmes. Now unless the money is a sweetener for some military deals (Hawk?) I think that money would be better spent on Her Majestys armed forces. Heavy lift for the army or more F35'S for the navy. I dont think India needs the cash.

I was reading the other day that they spend 19% of GDP on there armed forces.
Surely a country that has developed land air and sea nuke delivery systems don't qualify for 800 million worth of aid!!

 

[Sea Toby]

Well, the Royal Navy would be wise to do the same. Getting back on thread, it appeared yesterday that the Indians would spend the 800 million to get the Gorhov, today the stories are different. Maybe its wiser to wait for the contract signing before speculation.... But that would take all of the fun in speculating out of the picture.

 

[kams]

I was reading the other day that they spend 19% of GDP on there armed forces.
Surely a country that has developed land air and sea nuke delivery systems don't qualify for 800 million worth of aid!!

Sorry for the off-topic post.

Err that is 2.7% of GDP. 19% of Indian GDP is US$190-200 Billion dollars. I think what you are refering to is % of total central gov. expenditure.

Regarding the UK financial aid, operative word is 'aid', it is not a grant. Which means it is a loan and will have to be repaid, albit with a preferential low rate. Do you guys seriously believe UK will donate 800 million pounds?

 

[mysterious]

U.S officials have already rubbished reports linking USS Kitty Hawk with Indian Navy. This has been already posted in the Indian Navy thread in much detail by Kams. I dont see any point in lettting this thread continue to float.

 

[Izzy1]

Well, the Royal Navy would be wise to do the same. Getting back on thread, it appeared yesterday that the Indians would spend the 800 million to get the Gorhov, today the stories are different. Maybe its wiser to wait for the contract signing before speculation.... But that would take all of the fun in speculating out of the picture.

Royal Navy?? - What? Do you have two of them??

We'll take 'em!

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

It may sound heartless but I was ever so annoyed at good old Gordon Brown a couple of weeks back. There He was announcing that the poor of India will be given £800 million of UK taxpayers money over the next 4 years. India has a large military and numerous procurement programmes. Now unless the money is a sweetener for some military deals (Hawk?) I think that money would be better spent on Her Majestys armed forces. Heavy lift for the army or more F35'S for the navy. I dont think India needs the cash.

No offence but India indeed is a third world poor country. Golden Brown didnt tell any lie. And since India is not spending that 800 million pounds on her people then no harm letting UK spend on India's population. It helps both countries. Uk gets the deal and India gets UK to spend on her population.

 

[swerve]

...
Regarding the UK financial aid, operative word is 'aid', it is not a grant. Which means it is a loan and will have to be repaid, albit with a preferential low rate.

"Aid" does not mean loans. Grants are aid. Gifts are aid. Loans on preferential rates are aid only to the extent of the difference between commercial repayment terms & the actual repayment terms.

Do you guys seriously believe UK will donate 800 million pounds?

Absolutely. In financial year 2007-8, total UK aid - not loans - is budgeted at £5291 million. £200 million per year for India is less than 4% of that.

http://www.dfid.gov.uk/default.asp

Now, let's get back to the topic.

 

[kams]

"Aid" does not mean loans. Grants are aid. Gifts are aid. Loans on preferential rates are aid only to the extent of the difference between commercial repayment terms & the actual repayment terms.
.

Yes, Grants are aid too, but to term whole of 800 million quid as grant (gift) is not accurate (which was implied in the first place)

Here is the break up (financial aid, grant, poverty reduction aid, sector poverty reduction aid, Debt relief etc) of DFID aid to India.

Total DFID1 and GPEX Bilateral Aid by Recipient Country (Asia)

India has been pre-paying the 'aid' and now accepts 'aid from only select few countries.

We can take further discussion of this via pm to avoid derailing of the topic.

The topic BTW is dead, with both Indian and US spokesperson denying the sale.

 

[Izzy1]

No offence but India indeed is a third world poor country. Golden Brown didnt tell any lie. And since India is not spending that 800 million pounds on her people then no harm letting UK spend on India's population. It helps both countries. Uk gets the deal and India gets UK to spend on her population.

Rubbish.

Your the only Third World country then I know that operated Charlie-Class SSNs, now has nukes - has more Su-30s than Russia. You wanted the position of power - welcome.

Third World... Don't blame us for your legacy cast system and lousy distribution of wealth. You can't even blame the British for that. Just like the rest of us, your rich are getting richer and poor getting poorer.

You countered Pakistan years ago - I prey their forgiveness outrunns your intolerence.

 

[kams]

Rubbish.

Your the only Third World country then I know that operated Charlie-Class SSNs, now has nukes - has more Su-30s than Russia. You wanted the position of power - welcome.

Third World... Don't blame us for your legacy cast system and lousy distribution of wealth. You can't even blame the British for that. Just like the rest of us, your rich are getting richer and poor getting poorer.

You countered Pakistan years ago - I prey their forgiveness outrunns your intolerence.

Lolnfloorl: nfloorl: nfloorl: I hope mods will take care of your post and i need not post some interesting bits of news..

This forum is getting interesting to say the least! Did some one mention that this is a defence forum.

Sorry Swerve..we will take the economics via pm, may be I will learn thing or two from you and I do have some things to share with you.

 

[tphuang]

They aren't satisfied, they want more, but decided the Horizon is too expensive. Hence the FREDA, the air-defence variant of the FREMM. A bit less capable, but significantly cheaper.

besides being not as capable as type 45.

Rubbish.

Your the only Third World country then I know that operated Charlie-Class SSNs, now has nukes - has more Su-30s than Russia. You wanted the position of power - welcome.

Third World... Don't blame us for your legacy cast system and lousy distribution of wealth. You can't even blame the British for that. Just like the rest of us, your rich are getting richer and poor getting poorer.

You countered Pakistan years ago - I prey their forgiveness outrunns your intolerence.

you probably should calm down a little bit, I think the poster is actually Pakistani.

The days of naval fleets of 50 ships is over. Outside the United States in the west, I don't see many navies having over 20 to 30 sea going ships in the future, and that is counting submarines. Fleets will be filled out with some numbers of OPVs. There won't be many navies with more than 5 or so landing ships either outside the US.

China, easily over 50.

 

[Galrahn]

ya, add south korea and japan to the list, both are expanding, and FREMM could really increase the size of some European navies if the ships are affordable.

In fact, the only navies really reducing their size right now are in Europe, and not even all of Europe, with the UK leading the way.