Indian Air Force To Buy 126 Multi-Role Planes

[highsea]

Interesting point of view, rafale.

"...As far as goin 4 F-18s is concerned i dont see that IAF would be so naiive to pick a failed jet, even the super hornet suffers from serious technical issues like wing drop etc."

Of course you are a F-18 driver, so we should take your word as gospel. I guess you don't realize that the wing drop issue was resolved during flight testing back in 1998, and the SH has probably the friendliest flight characteristics of any AC in it's class.

"The US would be very glad to give technology since both have to be replaced by JSF in the future so wat better way of getting rid of ur old junk than to provide it to a prospective super power"

Lol.

"...would defntely ask 4 JSF if none other. otherwise PAK-FA does offer comparable capabilities n ive got a hunch it would definitely be better than JSF"

Oh, well if you've got a hunch, we better listen to you.

"As supported by history MIG-29/ Su-30s were better than their American counterparts since they had a requirement to meet which was to do better at everything which an F-16/ F-15 could perform."

Right, better at everything...except surviving A2A combat...Do tell us about the combat history of the MiG-29...let's see, there was the unarmed Cessna shot down by Cuba... oh! and a civilian airliner, a MiG-23 shot down by his own wingman flying a MiG-29 in Iraq (who then committed suicide by flying his plane into the ground trying to evade the F-15 on his six), and then there was the MiG-29 that shot down another MiG-29...yep, helluva combat record alright.

"n once again we'll see PAF shoppin for junk..."

Yeah, just like the UAE, Israel, and about 20 other countries that fly F-16's, buncha suckers..

I just love experts...

 

[indianguy4u]

i dont understand this Indian paronia of Pakistan buying F-16s since technically even now India has much superior jts in the form of MKIs. As far as goin 4 F-18s is concerned i dont see that IAF would be so naiive to pick a failed jet, even the super hornet suffers from serious technical issues like wing drop etc , If i were in the IAF would definitely bet my 10 cents eithe on MIG-29 SMT or M2K-5 , provide better capabilities than existing later blocks of F-16s n u cant ignore the infrastructural costs. The US would be very glad to give technology since both have to be replaced by JSF in the future so wat better way of getting rid of ur old junk than to provide it to a prospective super power , n at the same time control the strings as has happened in case of Pakstan . Even gripens r a better choice since the aircraft would under go progressive upgrades thru out its life .... n is a good light , agile multi role patform. Had i been in Indian government n if i was really hard pressed to induct American technology would defntely ask 4 JSF if none other. otherwise PAK-FA does offer comparable capabilities n ive got a hunch it would definitely be better than JSF , As supported by history MIG-29/ Su-30s were better than their American counterparts since they had a requirement to meet which was to do better at everything which an F-16/ F-15 could perform.

AS far as Pakistan is concerned i believe its a desperate measure since the neithe had the bucks nor the political clout to bring about the sale of gripens/ rafales, plus the short term stategic thinking F-16 has reached the end of its life so judging from reports even if the 70 as being contemplated r inducted by the time they come to maturity the world would be buzzing with 5th generation aircrafts like the PAK-FA , JSFn F-22. So all in all it wont amount to much .............n once again we'll see PAF shoppin for junk to keep the F-16 fleet airborne as has happened in case of Mirages....

well i also second on the matter of buying more su30 mki but this order is for multi role combat aircraft there for this particular contract the SU 30 is heavy AC .but we should be building more of these AC may be go for newer tech upgrade & coming up with AC which may be comparable to F-22 like mkII variant in future

 

[P.A.F]

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=67578



Do F-16s have an edge over French Mirages?

IAF’s vote is for Mirage; says it has exceptionally good safety track record

SHIV AROOR [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Posted online: Saturday, April 02, 2005 at 0135 hours IST[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif]NEW DELHI, APRIL 1: Does the American F-16 fighter have a better safety track record than the French Mirage-2000? The Indian Air Force certainly doesn’t think so.

In a presentation on military flight safety this morning, a senior IAF officer displayed data which indicated that the Mirage-2000H fighters operated by the IAF were the least prone to crashes by human error compared to Mirage-2000s in other countries and US Air Force F-16 jets.

http://banners.expressindia.com/adsnew/adclick.php?bannerid=711&zoneid=377&source=&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.online.citibank.co.in%2Fportal%2Fcitiin%2Fforms%2Fcitiinrcaflash.jsp%3FexternalOfferCode%3DIEXGL200

The Mirage-2000 and F-16 are among four fighters that will bid for a 126 aircraft tender later this year. A lower frequency of crashes due to human error would broadly, though not always, indicate a fighter that is simpler to operate in the air.

According to information made available by the IAF’s Director General (Inspection & Flight Safety) Air Marshal Padamjit Ahluwalia, 52 per cent of all USAF F-16 crashes were caused by human error, while the worldwide percentage for Mirage-2000s crashes is 59 per cent and a substantially lower 43 per cent for crashes of Mirage-2000H fighters operated by the IAF out of Gwalior.

When asked if he, as the IAF’s chief air safety manager, would recommend a reduction in the number of aircraft types currently in operation, Ahluwalia said, ‘‘I would definitely recommend reducing the number. However, it would still not be prudent to put all your eggs in one basket. We will learn to manage with whatever comes our way’’.

An expert committee, headed by Ahluwalia, that was set up at the end of last year after three Mirage-2000 crashes, will soon submit its report to Air HQ. ‘‘The Mirage-2000 has an exceptionally good track record,’’ Ahluwalia said. While the IAF has arrived at reasons for two of the three Mirage crashes, Ahluwalia said, ‘‘Sometimes there are literally no answers to crashes that take place’’.

In a traditional act of support for the MiG-21, the Air Marshal said the last MiG-21 squadron would operate all the way up to 2016. ‘‘They have a large residual life. 12 Type 75 squadrons are being upgraded to the Bison standard. We will slowly reduce the Type 77 and 96. The upgrade will be dovetailed with the induction of Su-30MKIs and the impending acquisition of medium-range multirole combat aircraft,’’ he said, indicating that the MiG-21 had a better safety record than the MiG-23 and MiG-27 ground strike fighters. Data he made available indicated there has been a 23 per cent decade-wise reduction in non-fatal crashes since the 1970s, a 51 per cent reduction in technical defect crashes and a 62 per cent drop in MiG-21 crashes over five years. [/font]

 

[adsH]

Air Marshal Padamjit Ahluwalia, 52 per cent of all USAF F-16 crashes were caused by human error, while the worldwide percentage for Mirage-2000s crashes is 59 per cent and a substantially lower 43 per cent for crashes of Mirage-2000H fighters operated by the IAF out of Gwalior.

If you comapre the Stats ou will see that f-16 is operated by a larger number of Operater in larger numbers and they fly larger number of Sorties then Mirages 2000, So a Crash is not a good excuse for justifying a new AC. And Ac should be judged for its flight charecteristics and the Capabilities it offers, the F-16 has continously been Tested since its Development and Pushing the Ac to its limit is one aspect of it, but It does have some new features that help it fly in Urban Areas avoiding Building and structures and it prevent the AC from Crashing if the Pilot becomes unconscious or the Guidance system if the Mission requires the Pilot to fly really low (Not required by USAF since the USAF has stopped Flying very low.)

 

[P.A.F]

well from reading the report i think india are more interested in the mirages and not any US hardware. i think the mirages would do them good.

 

[kashifshahzad]

well from reading the report i think india are more interested in the mirages and not any US hardware. i think the mirages would do them good.

[Admin edit: Red aRRow: No flame baiting]

 

[P.A.F]

The simple thing is
"THE GRAPES ARE SOUR"
nothing else when they were getting the F-16s they were the world's best planes which India is going to get when they are not getting then they say Mirage is good.
Go get the Grippens too. they are also the best isnat it P.A.F lol

well its not a matter of if they can't get em. its just that thay know the f-16 wouldn't fit into the airforce and be as effective as the other options.

 

[aaaditya]

it is not that india cannot get the f-16s ,the f-16's have been offered to india and india has 9 billion dollars to spend,if india wants it can buy them,but then that would be foolish to buy an aircraft that they are not familiar with and that their neighbours are familiar with,it would be the same for pakistanis if they went for the su-30's.:coffee it's not a qestion of inability but being wise and prudent with your money to think several times about which aircraft would serve the indian airforce the best(if it is the mirages then so be it,mirages are about as good as the f-16s,both have more or less similiar capabilities).:coffee

 

[adsH]

it is not that india cannot get the f-16s ,the f-16's have been offered to india and india has 9 billion dollars to spend,if india wants it can buy them,but then that would be foolish to buy an aircraft that they are not familiar with and that their neighbours are familiar with,it would be the same for pakistanis if they went for the su-30's.:coffee it's not a qestion of inability but being wise and prudent with your money to think several times about which aircraft would serve the indian airforce the best(if it is the mirages then so be it,mirages are about as good as the f-16s,both have more or less similiar capabilities).:coffee

Mirage would be less capable then a top of the Line F-16 since dassault would of invested further in the Rafael project rather then the mirage. the F-16 has constantly been developed. if a F-16 can beat a competitor such as Rafael in winning contracts (Case of UAE) where MOney is no object for the best capability is then i would indeed beg to differ!!

 

[aaaditya]

well adsh you have done it again,you have missed the meaning of my post again(this happened once before,if iam not mistaken),the main objet of my post is that india can easily afford to buy the f-16 if it wants to but it but the iaf finds the mirage2000's more suitable to india's needs than the f-16's,and mirage2000-5 is no capable of taking on f-16's,of course i dont know tha capability of f-16block60 but the mirage is also a highly upgradable platform and iam sure it can be brought up to the standards of the f-16b60.:coffee f-16 seems to be clearly cheaper interms of unit cost than the mirages but can the american's be truisted,when they could deny pakistan(their long term ally) for 15 years what is the guarantee that they wont do it again(to pakistan) particularly to india which has only recently entered the us good books,usa sold radars to india to counter china during the 1962 war but then refused to sell parts for them during the indo-pak war rendering them useless,they also refused to sell india the f-104 combat aircraft(sold to pakistan,forcing india to turn towards the russian mig21),they also prevented the british from selling india the litening fighter jet(all three were the candidates for the iaf order),after the pokhran tests of the 90's they prevented uk from selling spare parts for sea harriers and sea kings of indian navy,while france and russia supported india during that period,what concessions will usa seek to sell these fighters to india?and even pakistan should also be vary of usa <i would be very surprised if usa offers source codes for the f-16'S TO PAKISTAN,usa's double game can be seen from the fact that immediately after that they offered not only f-16's and f-18's to india.:coffee

 

[adsH]

(if it is the mirages then so be it,mirages are about as good as the f-16s,both have more or less similiar capabilities).:coffee

Apologies for this one!!

My little Speach was basically Focussed not towards India's procurement but About Your "feeling" which i think was put through as a Main Justifying Factor for IAF to procure a Platform not As Capable as the F-16. Logistical issues aside operators usually opt for Weapon systems on service Requirements that offer larger set of capability, but i can understand the point of vew which is Cost Vs Capability (defense never comes Cheap). unfortunately your last sentence invoked my response, i work sequentially, Backwards UP!! LOL

 

[srirangan]

It's not about which plane is better, it depends on which suits the IAF more. Both F-16's and Mirage 2000's (and MiG 29's for that matter) have their advantages and disadvantages, now the question is whose attributes better suit the IAF's requirements for these 126 M-MRCA's.

 

[kashifshahzad]

It's not about which plane is better, it depend which suits the IAF more.
There's a reason why the IAF is not procuring 126 MKI's for the MRCA role.

Sri please trpy all this in simple english some people cant under stand that. I am only able to under the fst line but cant understand the second one

 

[SABRE]

Sri please trpy all this in simple english some people cant under stand that. I am only able to under the fst line but cant understand the second one

lol...thats as simple as it get..Even I dont knw how sri could put it in more easy words

anyways he means to say that its not the matter which fighter jet is good, what matters is which on of them is good for IAF. Su-30MKI is a great AirCraft (compared to F-16 or Mirage or F-18 ) but there must be some reasons behind why IAF is not buying them for MRCA roles & to replace large numbers of MiG-21.

I think u got confused on MKI. By MKI ppl mean Su-30.

 

[srirangan]

Sri please trpy all this in simple english some people cant under stand that. I am only able to under the fst line but cant understand the second one

I've tried editing my post Kashif. Hope it helps.

 

[SABRE]

I've tried editing my post Kashif. Hope it helps.

Its not ur english tht he did not understand its the technaical words such as MKI & MRCA.

 

[srirangan]

Ah I see. MKI refers to the Su-30 MKI, as mentioned by SABRE. And MRCA stands for Multi Role Combat Aircrat.

 

[vrus]

How many Su-30 MKI s did India order ? How many have have come so far ? And when will the remaining come ?

 

[srirangan]

How many Su-30 MKI s did India order ? How many have have come so far ? And when will the remaining come ?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Specs/index.html

Number Procured: 50 MKI to be delivered by Russia and 140 to be produced by HAL Ozhar

Direct Deliveries from Russia
...............1st-8th Ac ,Su-30Ks (SB-001 to SB-00 inducted on 11 June 1997
...............19-28th Ac, first MKIs (SB-019 to SB-02 inducted on 27 Sept 2002
...............29-40th ac, all Su-30 MKIs, (SB-029 to SB-040) delivered in 2004
...............41-50th ac, Su-30 MKIs, expected January 2005

HAL Manufacture
...............1st Ac , a Su-30MKI (SB-102) formally handed over to IAF in 29th Nov 2004

 

[kashifshahzad]

I cant under stand why countries buy planes from other countries why dont they make their guys make B-2 and F-117 this will really improve your defence.