India set to unveil new, insane Naval Doctrine

Sq No.15

Banned Member
WHILE Delhi has increased its Defence Budget to the tunes of billions of rupees, hiding behind the notions of 'Defence Needs' India is all set to introduce its new, yet insane Naval Doctrine by announce final assembling of a powerful electro-accelerating machine i.e. Kilo-Ampere Liner Injector (KALI), that would be South Asia's first 'Star Wars' weapon whose beams could cripple the incoming missiles and aircraft, that would not only be disturbing the military balance in the region but would be a permanent source of threat and deterrence to all the Naval and Air Traffic in the region particularly the future sea traffic to Pakistan's Gawadar Port, authoritative diplomatic sources confided this to The Daily Mail Investigation Cell (DMIC). A senior Western diplomat, who remained in touch with a high-profile intelligence agency of his country, disclosed on condition of anonymity that the Indians imported the said technology from Russia a few years back and conducted further research on it at the Bhaba Institute of Nuclear Research (BINR) in Mumbai for a further modification so as to suit their defence requirements and by 1999, it had made some major modifications in it.

The Daily Mail Investigation Cell has learnt that the KALI is a "soft kill" weapon system, initially developed by both the US and the former USSR during the Cold War era as part of their Star Wars Programme.
Bursts of microwaves from KALI, packed with the gigawatts of water could 'soft kill' the incoming aircraft and missiles by crippling their electronic systems and computer chips, contrary to the laser weapons which destroy the targets by drilling holes in metal.

KALI generates pulses of highly energetic electrons while its other components convert the electrons into the X-Rays or microwaves. According to some reports, India's Defence Ballistic Institute at Chandigarh has already started using the X-Ray version of KALI to study the speed of projectiles.

It is learnt further that the Indian defence scientist, at secret defence institute established at Banglore are utilizing a micro-wave producing version of KALI to test the vulnerability of electronic systems being installed in the light combat aircraft under development by the Indian aeronautical development agency in collaboration with the Israeli experts and the engineers of the IAI and IMI

Sources maintained that KALI would enable India to enhance its electronic systems used in its satellite and missiles against electro-magnetic impulses (EMI), generated by nuclear weapons. The EMI can wreak havoc by creating intense electric fields of several thousands volts per centimeter. According to the defence analysts, the electronic components used in most of the missiles can withstand electric fields of only 300 volts per centimeter.
The Daily Mail's investigations reveal that the Indians are planning to 'arrange' a formal test firing of KALI during the next couple of months to complete their current anti-missile and anti-aircraft programme. It is believed that the Indians would install KALI initially on its Warships that it has recently deployed in the Persian Gulf.

Some other reports reveal that India is also interested in purchasing almost a fleet of Kilo-Class Submarines and one such Sub is still under construction at St. Petersburg and would reportedly be having the missile firing capability installed. Moreover, vertically launched versions of the 3M-55 El would arm three improved Krival III (project 1135.6) class frigates, which are still under construction for the Indian Navy at the Balitisky shipyard again in St. Petersburg.

Each frigate will be capable of boasting eight 3M-54E anti-ship missiles. The Russians have designed the frigate to meet the demands of the Indian Naval Doctrine. The 3M-54 is reported to have a range of upto 3000 kms. The large part of the missile's trajectory is flown at high sub-sonic speeds at about 6 kms from the target; the missile third solid propellant state starts.
Another report, originating from the US, says that the Indians have also signed a contract with the Russians for the upgrading f the MiG21-93 fighters and have asked them to install the radar guided 'Vympel-77’ (NATO code name AA-12 Adder), a medium range air-to-air missile. The Russians are reported to have successfully test fired the same at the start of August this year at the Akhubinsk Test Centre in the south of the country.
Simultaneously, Indians are reportedly seeking an upgradation of MiG-21s by the Israeli Air Industry, installing them with state of the art avionics systems (earlier the IAF was planning to retire all the MiG -21 Squadrons). The Indians are also reportedly making desperate efforts to purchase top of the line "Rafale" combat jet fighters from France. The Rafale, is an advance production of the makers of the Mirage, the Dassaul Aviation France and was built to rival the Euro fighter by an EU conglomerate. The Indians are reportedly to have made a strong pitch for Rafale, while going simultaneously with Russian Sukhoi.

This development coupled with the launching of KALI would disturb the defence scenario in South Asia and would be a permanent threat and sources of concern and havoc for all the civil air and naval traffic of the regional countries.

The Defence Attaché of an Arabian country, while talking to this scribe, said that with this new defence extravaganza, India can mess with any one, any time and the move would force the rest of the countries in the region to boost their defence strategies. It may engage these countries into a few missile and electronic race.

A senior European diplomat, when contacted said that in the wake of the downing of an unarmed Pakistan Navy plane 'Atlantique' by the Indians a few years back, any such added development can force Pakistan to go for obtaining a matching technology from any advanced country or even the Russians. He added that if such a development takes place in this part of the South Asia, and if the Indians are not timely checked by powers that be, the situation would not remain under the control of the UN or the US.
However, The Daily Mail Investigation Cell has also learnt on authority that the situation has been taken into note by the relevant US authorities and the US is planning to make its official reaction over the new Indian 'adventure', asking both the Indians and Russians to freeze any such project. The G-8 and the P-5 member States have also discussed the situation and have asked the Russian informally to terminate any such plan in the wider interest of humanity and the world peace. The G-8 and P-5 forums, according to another senior diplomat, were in a much better position to influence Russia.

It may be added here that the Indians are launching a number of defense projects in collaboration with the Israelis and the Russians. Their aims are to nuclearize their all the three defence forces i.e. Army, Navy and Air Force and to attain a strategic supremacy in the region.

Increasing itself, the production of the missiles and creating added material to play havoc with humanity India has now started importing anti-missile and anti-aircraft systems. They just recently finalized a deal to attain the anti-ballistic missile system.

The Indians first purchased "Phalcon" from Israel, immensely disturbing the military balance and are aiming to further disturb this balance by opting for Russian originate 'soft kill' system KALI coupled with upgrading its submarines. Naval frigates and Jet fighters with the help and assistance of Israeli and Russian partners while it has already deployed Warships in the Persian Gulf that are soon to be equipped with KALI.

The global defence analysts believe that such military muscle can insane the Indian defence forces and its political leadership, which can ultimately result a nuclear war between India and Pakistan or India and China, sabotaging all the efforts of Peace in South Asia.

The American and other Western nations have been slow to show concern over all such hostile ambitions of India. It is being feared that with such a military might and with the presence of such devastating technologies and a missile reservoir (with possible nuclear war-heads), India is a constant threat to humanity and the world peace.

It is worth mentioning that the Indian government is spending not billions but trillions of dollars on defence purchase while the hundreds of millions of the general public lack even the basic living facilities. The international financial institutes including the World Bank and the IMF are contemplating upon withholding all the financial aids to India in wake of its extravagant defence purchases from numerous countries.

In a recent report, the World Bank has stated that India has become the poorest country of the world. The report further says that during the past time years or so, the rate of poverty has shockingly increased in India. Nearly 400 million people are living under worst conditions of poverty.

http://dailymailnews.com/200410/04/news/101.html
 

Sq No.15

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
Re: India Set to Unviel New, Insane Naval Drotine & Laser Weapon

Well , no doubt about that India working on KALI, I heard about it 3 years back but after their nothing , Is this System is on last stage of development ?

If so , then India will become undisputed power of asia.

Is their any Indian project going on regarding 3M-54E anti ship missile , with range of 3000Km , Is this type of missile exist at all ?


If i believe on this report , then India will rule Indian ocean undipuitedly. ?
 

highsea

New Member
Re: India Set to Unviel New, Insane Naval Drotine & Laser Weapon

This article reads kind of funny. Rafales for India? Gigawatts of water? I'm not sure how seriously it should be taken.

Some clarification on the 3M-54E, from FAS.
The 3M-54E missile has a range of 300 km. For the majority of its trajectory it flies at a high subsonic speed. The first stage drops off when the missile reaches the prescribed altitude and its second stage sustainer engine goes into action. This is the time when the missile's wing and tail assembly unfold. The altitude of its flight goes down to 10-15 metres above the sea surface and the missile heads towards the target in accordance with the target designations, fed before the start into the memory of its board guidance system. The targeting on the cruise sector of the trajectory is effected by an inertia navigation system. The end sector of the missile's flight with the homing head active proceeds only five metres above the water surface. At 60 km from its target the third, solid-fuel stage separates from the missile, accelerates to supersonic speed and overcomes the defence zone of the target vessel.
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
The news about France offering India rafales is few years old, did not hear anything about it after that. I think, India is not interested in rafales for carrier.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
I think India is interested in Rafale, but in their technology rather than the complete package itself. Russian radars and avionics aren't known for their performance when compared to Western nations.
 

009-terminator

New Member
yaaa i heard 2 years ago abt kali and if it is opted by indian navy then this is a sure danger for pakistanese and chinese
:smokingc:
 

highsea

New Member
Re: India Set to Unviel New, Insane Naval Drotine & Laser Weapon

Sq No.15 said:
Yes , Inded french offered India its strip down version of Rafale's

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-9-2002_pg7_3

May be editor misspled 300 km to 3000km, typing error,

Any news of kali ?
An offer from the French (who will sell anything to anyone), is just a little different than India "desperate" to acquire the AC, that's all. I don't doubt that if India decided to buy Rafale's, the french would be happy to sell them. I only question the articles statement about India's "desperation" for the AC.

300 km and 3000 km are quite different. I was just pointing that out.

As far as the KALI, induction linear accelerators are nothing new. KALI is an electron pulse generator, and these are useful for generating short high current electron pulses for fast time resolved radiography of dense rapidly moving objects. (i.e. ballistics research, as the article mentioned.) They also make good welders.

As far as a weapon, well, the machine weighs 26 tonnes and uses tanks with 12,000 liters of oil, so it's not exactly mobile. In addition, fast rep rate pulse power systems have design problems of their own, such as switch and component lifetime, and cost.

This is not to say there is no military potential, but there are some significant hurdles to get over before it becomes practical.
 

009-terminator

New Member
highsea said:
Sq No.15 said:
Yes , Inded french offered India its strip down version of Rafale's

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-9-2002_pg7_3

May be editor misspled 300 km to 3000km, typing error,

Any news of kali ?
An offer from the French (who will sell anything to anyone), is just a little different than India "desperate" to acquire the AC, that's all. I don't doubt that if India decided to buy Rafale's, the french would be happy to sell them. I only question the articles statement about India's "desperation" for the AC.

300 km and 3000 km are quite different. I was just pointing that out.

As far as the KALI, induction linear accelerators are nothing new. KALI is an electron pulse generator, and these are useful for generating short high current electron pulses for fast time resolved radiography of dense rapidly moving objects. (i.e. ballistics research, as the article mentioned.) They also make good welders.

As far as a weapon, well, the machine weighs 26 tonnes and uses tanks with 12,000 liters of oil, so it's not exactly mobile. In addition, fast rep rate pulse power systems have design problems of their own, such as switch and component lifetime, and cost.

This is not to say there is no military potential, but there are some significant hurdles to get over before it becomes practical.
so high sea wat do u think is indian navy is acquiring these kalis without testing or without removing the dificulities surely they have worked on it anf after removing the hurdels they will opt it. :smokingc:
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
Okay, lets get this right. This thread is about NAVAL doctrine, not air doctrine, so lets KEEP it that way. I would assume you made this thread to discuss naval aspects of the doctrine....
 

highsea

New Member
009-terminator said:
so high sea wat do u think is indian navy is acquiring these kalis without testing or without removing the dificulities surely they have worked on it anf after removing the hurdels they will opt it. :smokingc:
I think journalists are fond of hyping things they don't understand.

It's a long, long way go from a research accelerator to a weapons platform that can be deployed on a naval ship. The information in the article is 5 years old, and the KALI 5000 was not even finished at the time the article was written. All previous KALI's were single shot pulse systems, and thus were not suitable as a "beam" weapon.

Just consider how long the US has been working on the ABL, which is a relatively mundane chemical laser, and ask yourself if India (or anyone else) could have developed a KALI weapon in 5 years. Things just don't work that way. Maybe 25 years, but not 5. There's just too many hurdles, miniturization of components and switching technology, power generation, beam diffusion, a turret design for targeting and aiming, cost, etc.

I would need to see something much more current on this before I could consider it anywhere close to reality.
 

lalith prasad

Banned Member
in 1999 india tested the kali10000(10000 stands for 10 tons) mounted on an il76 in a coventential rotodome .i read that article and saw tha photo in frontline magazine however they also mentioned that at that time it was too bulky for operational defence use and was meant to be a td and that efforts were being made to reduce its weight to 1ton and power output to be increased by 10 to 100 times two years back the same magazine carried the photo of the ground variant of the system(improved over the original one but being ground tested).yes it is true that the system was also used for testing the emi resistance of the lca (i will get the name of the testrig along with the information when i post next time)there have also been a mention of durga system(directionaly un-restricted ray gun array) similiar to an american system mounting a laser system on a b747 to shoot down incoming missiles.(however not much is known about it ,it seems to be more classified than the atv project).
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
in 1999 india tested the kali10000(10000 stands for 10 tons) mounted on an il76 in a coventential rotodome .i read that article and saw tha photo in frontline magazine however they also mentioned that at that time it was too bulky for operational defence use and was meant to be a td and that efforts were being made to reduce its weight to 1ton and power output to be increased by 10 to 100 times two years back the same magazine carried the photo of the ground variant of the system(improved over the original one but being ground tested).yes it is true that the system was also used for testing the emi resistance of the lca (i will get the name of the testrig along with the information when i post next time)there have also been a mention of durga system(directionaly un-restricted ray gun array) similiar to an american system mounting a laser system on a b747 to shoot down incoming missiles.(however not much is known about it ,it seems to be more classified than the atv project).
Can u give me the link
I thought KALI is still in conceptual stage
 

lalith prasad

Banned Member
they were in the frontline magazine 9since they are so old )i may not be able to post them i have some info on emi testing of lca (not much) i will post it next time i come it is in a brochure i acquired during the aero india show of 2001..you can check the br forum thread (archives) on kali and durga they might have a pic or the original article(downloaded by someone).
 

lalith prasad

Banned Member
people seem to think that india is sitting on a goldmine or is receiving foreign millitary assistance from a france .the rafaleM costs 65 million dollars each .india definitely does not need it.ofcourse rafale is superior to nlca in terms of range ,weapons load etc.
 

XEROX

New Member
I got sent this article, good read

Interview with Vice Admiral Madanjit Singh PVSM, AVSM

Force Issue November-2004


Commissioned into the Indian Navy in January 1966, Vice Admiral Madanjit Singh PVSM, AVSM, specialises in gunnery and missiles. Before taking charge as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief Western Naval Command, he was FOC-in-C, Southern Command. Among his various afloat and ashore appointments have been the command of five ships including the frigate INS Ganga and the aircraft carrier INS Viraat. He served two terms as director of Staff Requirements at Naval
Headquarters. He was the Director General Defence Planning Staff till March 2001 and in October 2001, he became the Chief of Personnel. His overseas responsibilities included setting up the Officers Training Academy at Port Harcourt in Nigeria in 1980-83, when he headed the Indian naval team to that country. An alumnus of the National Defence Academy in Pune, he passed out as the best cadet. Hailing from Kapurthala in Punjab , the admiral has a passion for golf and marksmanship. Sitting in his plush office which overlooked the Bombay harbour with naval ships (both static and moving) forming an interesting backdrop, he spoke to FORCE on a range of subjects including the growing role of the navy in modern warfare.


How has the induction of new weapon systems and technologies affected the operational level of war?

The warfare has changed for us because of the equipment profile that we now have. There are more capable ships, aircraft, submarines with longer range missiles and force-multipliers. For example, the INS Talwar that we now have probably has two to three times more offensive capability than the earlier ships. So things have changed a lot.

Does it mean that now our area of responsibility has increased and we are more offensive in our operational art?

Areas of interest were always there, it was just that we were focused in other areas. Last few years, we have been showing our presence in most parts of the Indian Ocean and beyond. We are also doing bilateral exercises with many other navies. In fact, now we have declared that certain periods in a year we will not participate in any bilateral exercises because we need that time for our own operational changing patterns. Naval diplomacy has always been there. For the last so many years, among the three services, the navy has had a larger role in diplomacy and will continue to have so.

The recently released Indian Maritime Doctrine talks about littoral warfare, which also appears to be the trend worldwide. How are you moving in this direction?

We always had a focus on littoral warfare. It is the extra regional navies which have realised that littoral warfare is the order of the day and hence they have to pay attention in this area.

If you are saying that the navy has always been conscious of littoral warfare then what exactly has changed?

There have been a lot of changes. Most Asian nations, in fact none of them, have offensive capabilities beyond their own immediate areas, not even the Chinese. And no country in the West will sell anything to an Asian country which has an offensive capability. Most Asian navies are getting missiles (Surface to Air Missiles) which are defensive in nature. What has changed for us is that we have gone in for offensive weapons. We have an offensive capability. So our deterrence is effective over a wider range. For so many years we have been operating within 200 miles of our east and west coasts. We now do much more. For instance, Persian Gulf has always been very important to us and we have been sending our ships there, but now we are showing our presence in the Persian Gulf region much more. How many countries are sending their ships to Iran , UAE and Kuwait and so on?

Is it not true that a weapon system is offensive or defensive depending upon how it is used? Then what do you mean by offensive weapon systems?

In the past we had guns. We introduced missiles in the navy 30 years ago. Now we have developed Brahmos and also have offensive missiles with three or four times more range than our earlier missiles. If you have the power which is visible nobody wants to come close to you. That is deterrence. Our surface ships and submarines have these missiles. For example, the US which has nuclear-powered submarines is in a different kind of warfare. They are concerned about our conventional submarines.

Why is the US concerned about our conventional submarines?

Because they are difficult to detect as they are silent at slow speed. The Indian Ocean has eight choke points. A conventional submarine could be lurking anywhere here and could cause havoc.

Then why are we looking for the nuclear-powered Akula submarines?

I am not saying that we are looking for Akula submarines. But we firmly believe that the least vulnerable platform for strategic weapons is a nuclear-powered submarine which can be at sea for several months.

You have mentioned that the navy has acquired certain offensive weapon systems like the Brahmos missile. Yet, what are the operational equipment gaps which are preventing the optimal use of these offensive weapon systems?

We have quite a few of them. For example, Electronic Warfare comprises important equipment and sensors that every ship and submarine must have. Some we have imported, some we have made indigenously. In naval warfare, there is no eyeball contact. Now we are talking of BVR ( Beyond Visual Range ), but we acquired BVR weapons many years ago, as we do not get into visual range or even radar detection range. Then we have our navy-wide data link. We have a link between aircraft, helicopters, ships and submarines. We are totally networked and we have considerable amount of what the Americans call Cooperative Engagement Capability. This is an area which we are slowly developing. We have certainly not reached the US level.

In specific terms, what would be your equipment priorities?

Specific to offensive capabilities, we have been trying to develop a long range cruise missile capability, particularly for land-attack purposes. This will help the navy with the capability to contribute to the battle on land area. I don't have to cross any borders. My ship or submarine can launch such a missile.

What about the Brahmos missile?

Brahmos is not a cruise missile; it is a supersonic anti-ship missile. It is a top missile in the world and renders obsolete any defensive weapon systems.

What are the ranges that you would ideally be looking at?

May be 1,500km.

Will the DRDO be able to do this?

They have been working on this for sometime. There is a technology gap, which we still have not been able to overcome.

What about the long range Maritime Patrol Aircraft?

This is an operational gap and we are conscious about it. We are working at it. We are upgrading our IL-38s. We are buying some more of those. We are looking at upgrades of TU-142 aircraft which have a much longer range. We have not yet found a satisfactory aircraft which meets our requirements. As you are aware the American are phasing out their P3C Orions and are keen that we buy them. I am personally not in favour of them.

Why is it?

First of all, they are vintage aircraft. Nothing wrong with them, as we can upgrade their Electronic Warfare system and use them for five to 10 years. But we will be introducing into our service a vastly different type of aircraft with attendant logistics and operational spares requirement. In any case, we have a major problem as we maintain a diverse range of equipment. I would say that we should go for an Airbus or Boeing configuration. This would give us much more electronic capability.

Are we happy with the present Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (Searcher and Heron) in the navy or are we looking for something more?

They are the interim. Our eventual requirement is to have a UAV with a rotary capability that can be launched from a ship. The Russians have developed such a system.

Considering that the Asian nations are paying a lot of attention to submarines, how do you assess our submarine capabilities, and how do we make up for our dwindling numbers?

Our submarines have got the desired capabilities that we are looking at. The government has accepted the 30 years submarine plan. The CNS has also made a statement that the Scorpene programme will start sooner rather than later. These submarines have much more capabilities than the ones which will be phased out.

Although the navy chief is backing the Scorpene programme, there appears to be a divided opinion within the navy about whether we should have gone for the French Scorpene submarines or the Russian Amur submarines. What do you say to this?

There is no divided opinion. There are some pluses for the Scorpene and some for the Amur. In fact, there are three versions of the Amur submarine. We feel that in our area of operations, we need submarines with two different types of capabilities. We have decided that we cannot start two submarine lines at the same time. Once we are finished with one type of submarine, we can consider the other one. In fact, we have already done some sort of evaluation for the Amur submarine.

The Russians have made an offer of the Talwar class follow-on ships. Is this worth considering?

We have an option clause. We went for the Talwar class because we did not get government sanction in time to build replacement ships of this type. We could not have built this type of ship in India in four years. We have used a lot of sensors of Russian origin and we have put a lot of equipment of our own origin also. All the three ships of this class, including Tabar, which has just come, have gone through combat worthiness and form a good team.

What are your Key Result Areas, or things that you would want to accomplish during your tenure?

We have analysed a few areas of weaknesses, both in combat and man-management. In a single sentence, I want the combat capability of the navy to be fully networked. Regarding man-management, we have very capable officers and men. Earlier, we had an officer profile which was seven to eight years younger than the army. However, after the pay commission recommendations we find that the age profile of our officers in command has gone up to the army and the air force level. We used to have, what is called the standard service. If an officer did not go beyond a certain rank he retired after 21 years of service. Now the same officer, even if he does not go beyond that rank can serve up to 54 years of age or more. For this reason, the overall age profile of the navy has gone up. For example, I recently met the Singapore Navy Chief who retired at the ripe age of 44 years. Now, I am not saying that we can match that age profile, but the service has to remain young, which will ensure that it remains motivated. :)

Intresting yet not suprising about the cruise missile issue, a 1,500km cruise missile would be massive :)
 

corsair7772

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Why in gods name would the US be worried about IN subs? Does the US actually think that it would have trouble dealing with IN subs if the Indian government really did in some fairytale order a blocking of all or some chokepoints in the Indian Ocean. The indian ocean is a massive body of sea, not to be controlled by a country which is only its namesake. If the US is not worried about Iran fiddling with its kilos in the gulf then it wont feel any different about IN subs. The Scorpenes are basically a much improved version of the Agosta (6 subs operational by perhaps 2012) and u know about the kilos and foxtrots and would rate the Type 209 too highly unless india starts modernizing them. No matter what manufacturer claims are no one really has COMPLETELY surpassed the US in the naval field. Unless its one of those subs from the movies, the Akula 2 maybe be able to surpass a british or french task force but not a US one. It takes a navy the sign of PLAN to make the US raise an eyebrow, and it takes a navy from mars to scare em.

The specs on the Brahmos are worth checking out though. I didnt know it was that good a missile. :eek Heads up to someone to get those brahmos specs in here. :cop
 
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