Excuse me for saying that this reply is the one with most politics in it I have ever seen.I could say that you are a representative or an ambassador of Israel...I suggest trying staying in the military only views of things.You said "Attacks on civlian was justified since they was used to store wepons and help in firing them. UN post is justified becasue they didnt act when ISraeli complaing about these being used as firing place. Food convoys and others was justified becasue they taking materials for terriorists and their supports." I really can understand how someone in the 21st century can justify death.Also how someone can justify death of Australians or Chinese etc who risk their lives for peace?
How Israel won the war
- Thread starter SU 30MKI
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You may manipulate America, make europe trip and look like a fool in the UN, ban 3 countries whom already agreed to send troops to the front line due to "lack of ties" malaysia,indonesia and bangaladesh. But you aint fooling me and i really think this thred should be lock down. Cause its going to get quite nasty i predict.
victory
Perhaps we could settle this argument in this manner:
- Militarily: Israel won the battle, punishing Hizbollah, but at an higher cost than was anticipated. Common explanations for this are Hizbollah preparedeness for this fight, the terrain, poor inteligence from the Israelis, poor tactics from the Israelis (?) with employment of reserve units in small numbers without adequate suport, Hizbollah being much more organized, resilient and well equiped than anticipated.
- Politically and diplomatically: Internally: big disapointment for the Israelis, that were expecting a "blitzkrieg" type operation, similar to the 6 day war, and not a bogged down, limited assault on lebanon. Public perceived an almost defeat, due to high expectations of performance by the IDF. Consequences starting to show up in the internal Politics.
Internationally: Excluding Arab countries and a few others wich are close allies to Hizbollah, to wich this was a big victory, to many western countries this conflict surprised some people wich were expecting a "walk on the park" by the IDF. Due to their high expectations, the main perception is one of, if not defeat, then a stalemate, destroying the IDF reputation of invincibility. Not to mention the bad PR and in some cases public outcry to the disproportion of damage suffered by both sides, not in the combattants, but in civilian casualties and infrastructure damage.
My opinion but more input is wellcome.
.pt
Perhaps we could settle this argument in this manner:
- Militarily: Israel won the battle, punishing Hizbollah, but at an higher cost than was anticipated. Common explanations for this are Hizbollah preparedeness for this fight, the terrain, poor inteligence from the Israelis, poor tactics from the Israelis (?) with employment of reserve units in small numbers without adequate suport, Hizbollah being much more organized, resilient and well equiped than anticipated.
- Politically and diplomatically: Internally: big disapointment for the Israelis, that were expecting a "blitzkrieg" type operation, similar to the 6 day war, and not a bogged down, limited assault on lebanon. Public perceived an almost defeat, due to high expectations of performance by the IDF. Consequences starting to show up in the internal Politics.
Internationally: Excluding Arab countries and a few others wich are close allies to Hizbollah, to wich this was a big victory, to many western countries this conflict surprised some people wich were expecting a "walk on the park" by the IDF. Due to their high expectations, the main perception is one of, if not defeat, then a stalemate, destroying the IDF reputation of invincibility. Not to mention the bad PR and in some cases public outcry to the disproportion of damage suffered by both sides, not in the combattants, but in civilian casualties and infrastructure damage.
My opinion but more input is wellcome.
.pt
"
If someone from my neighbourhood is shooting on me, i will also shoot back irrespective whome may get killed and same everyone also do. ."
In your words you actually agree that if terrorist strike you in israel its a justified target. Since you support the idf in some way of another. I am sorry sir but i dont agree. NO ONE Palestinian, hezbollah or even the idf as the right to target civilians. You dont bomb a town just to kill 1-10 hezbollah... It is easy for one to comment to say if he shoots me i have the right to shoot at him and any one else on the other side of the fence. If and i hope it never happends BUT IF one day the bombs are on your side of the fence i really would like to hear if you still agree to what u just posted above.
The true victors in this war is the hezbollah you just boast their numbers 2 to 5 times its prev size. Their support is now on a high, even outside the arab world people are supporting hezbollah as a resistance group.
The world and especially the ME has gotten much more dangerous. Thanks to the recklessness and the lack of objectives on the side of israel. EVEN if you did find sucess it shall be short lived. So much hate has been fuel that i find more hardcore terrorist will be coming and they will be the by product of this war and its impact it has on normal civilians there.
Humans are flesh and bone. Ideologies are immortal
If someone from my neighbourhood is shooting on me, i will also shoot back irrespective whome may get killed and same everyone also do. ."
In your words you actually agree that if terrorist strike you in israel its a justified target. Since you support the idf in some way of another. I am sorry sir but i dont agree. NO ONE Palestinian, hezbollah or even the idf as the right to target civilians. You dont bomb a town just to kill 1-10 hezbollah... It is easy for one to comment to say if he shoots me i have the right to shoot at him and any one else on the other side of the fence. If and i hope it never happends BUT IF one day the bombs are on your side of the fence i really would like to hear if you still agree to what u just posted above.
The true victors in this war is the hezbollah you just boast their numbers 2 to 5 times its prev size. Their support is now on a high, even outside the arab world people are supporting hezbollah as a resistance group.
The world and especially the ME has gotten much more dangerous. Thanks to the recklessness and the lack of objectives on the side of israel. EVEN if you did find sucess it shall be short lived. So much hate has been fuel that i find more hardcore terrorist will be coming and they will be the by product of this war and its impact it has on normal civilians there.
Humans are flesh and bone. Ideologies are immortal
I personelly think your missing the larger picture of what happened, Israel had clear goal's they wanted to achieve, get back their soldier's, push Hezboallah from the Southern region of Lebeanon, stop the missile attack's and to weaken Hezboallah, perhap's even destroy it, I can't see where they achieved any of those objectives by military force, the soldier's have not been brought home, Hez are withdrawing of their own accord, the missiles were still raining down on the last Day, and as was said, Hez have been strenthend, if not in physical term's, atleast in spiritual and prestiage term's, watch how big Hez grow's now......SU 30MKI said:
, and yes Iran and Syria have been emboldned, although I think in Syria's case that might be misleading, they are weak militarialy and really it's Iran's show.Groups like Hezbollah don't rely primarily on statistics and casualty rates to determine victory. Is it sun tzu who said something like war being the continuation of politics? Well Hezballah probably lost a lot of assets but it seems to have achieved many of its political goals. It survived Israel, it caused Israeli casualties, and thanks to Israel's strategic bombing and Iran's money, it's social services arm seems to be winning the hearts and minds campaign. Not only that, the Lebanese government, which is Hezballah's potential rival in the area is rather marginalized. Iran, Hezbollah's patron now is more confident on the nuclear enrichment issue. Syria's president, who was recently under heavy fire for his alleged involement in the Hariri assasination now makes tough speeches again.
Hezbollah didn't get a prisoner exchange however, which was their ostensible goal for the kidnappings that started all this.
On the other hand, Olmert's government looks weaker than ever. My guess is that public opinion would support Olmert if he had clearly won. And the israelis are used to winning big. They're trying hard to make an impression of winning because they're in danger of losing their jobs.
Israel had clear objectives in starting the campaign. But my guess is that they seriously underestimated Hezbollah. My evidence? They clearly knew that a protracted war would be bad politically. But they called up their reservists once the fighting was well underway. Their ends would have been better served had they mobilized before the shooting started so as to overwhelm their foe quickly.
Hezbollah didn't get a prisoner exchange however, which was their ostensible goal for the kidnappings that started all this.
On the other hand, Olmert's government looks weaker than ever. My guess is that public opinion would support Olmert if he had clearly won. And the israelis are used to winning big. They're trying hard to make an impression of winning because they're in danger of losing their jobs.
Israel had clear objectives in starting the campaign. But my guess is that they seriously underestimated Hezbollah. My evidence? They clearly knew that a protracted war would be bad politically. But they called up their reservists once the fighting was well underway. Their ends would have been better served had they mobilized before the shooting started so as to overwhelm their foe quickly.
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But i think you missed the larger picture. Israel send the clear signals to Europe and US , Look if Iran and Syria can do this now, What they do when they have nuclear bomb?
Balls start roalling now, now european and US all set to change 28 Year old UN peace force rules, now UN force which cant carry gun till now will be backed up by Armors and ready for kicking. Which till now a silent spectator which was fully utilised by Hizbolla till now canot do any more.
Now they canot operate with their gun and rockets in south lebabon.
1) UN force with European one backed by Armor and live ammo with authroity to use force in place. Now UN will take care of Hizbollah. Now Hizbollah cannot operate freely as they till now
2) Lebanon Politiacians already declared that anyone who launches rocket and started war with ISreali is enemy of state and they are ready to use army for that. this may be also starting of civil war, they are now going for it.
3) US might be now understand the dangerous of getting nuclear IRAN and now more determined not that it happen with or without support.
Balls start roalling now, now european and US all set to change 28 Year old UN peace force rules, now UN force which cant carry gun till now will be backed up by Armors and ready for kicking. Which till now a silent spectator which was fully utilised by Hizbolla till now canot do any more.
Now they canot operate with their gun and rockets in south lebabon.
1) UN force with European one backed by Armor and live ammo with authroity to use force in place. Now UN will take care of Hizbollah. Now Hizbollah cannot operate freely as they till now
2) Lebanon Politiacians already declared that anyone who launches rocket and started war with ISreali is enemy of state and they are ready to use army for that. this may be also starting of civil war, they are now going for it.
3) US might be now understand the dangerous of getting nuclear IRAN and now more determined not that it happen with or without support.
Well I'm sorry, your "views" does not justify the murder of civilians and peacekeepers. The response of the IDF is disporportionate (how the hell you spell this word?SU 30MKI said:
) and wrong. Instead of solving IDF's problem, they are making it bigger. Paxter's right, Hezbollah is stronger now due to IDF's actionsedit* it's certain you are not an israeli. an Israeli will know that the war was astrategic stalemate if not defeat.*
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So you are saying to get UN to change their ROE is South Lebanon, Israel went ahead and bombed some peacekeepers? And if this was the plan of the IDF, why did they go on a "land grab" and invade Lebanon? Why not just bomb the peacekeepers using the IAF and be done with? The truth of the matter is the war is a strategic and tactical mistake by the IDF. They underestimated the enemy. The strength of a force is not by how many guns they carry, but by how motivated are they to carry on fighting. It's a pure and simple mistake.SU 30MKI said:
yeah know, it's quite difficult to refute an idiot....
Heres my best effort.
Hezzbullah won and made Isreali look like a big fat loser. Hezzbullah achived all goal in this war. Israeli tanks are crap. Hezzbullah send big message to America
dont mess with us. All Israeli are lair. North Israel in flames nothing they can do about it. Now Israel afraid to move in mid east and there army all smashed up. UN will make peace with Leb and Israel will run away.
"Israel's tanks are crap"
Do you consider the Merkava to be equal in armor to say the M1? Should the US should be glad that those Kornet ATGMs ended up in lebanon rather than iraq?
OT again, does the Hezballah/IDF fight close the discussion on the thread "Does Taiwan need MBTs?"
Do you consider the Merkava to be equal in armor to say the M1? Should the US should be glad that those Kornet ATGMs ended up in lebanon rather than iraq?
OT again, does the Hezballah/IDF fight close the discussion on the thread "Does Taiwan need MBTs?"
I'm an American and this is how I saw the recent conflict in the Middle East. Keep in mind my conclusions are my opinion only. I shall attempt to be fair, I could care less whether any of the participants were wiped out, one side or the other.
1. Neither side won. Neither side acheived their goals. Prisoners are still being held on both sides.
2. Hezbollah was not wiped out by the Israelis. Because it survived does not mean it won the war.
3. Israel was not wiped out by Hezbollah. Because it survived does not mean it won the war.
4. Most of the destruction is in Lebanon. Lebanon lost the war by failing to protect its border.
5. Lebanon with UN support is attempting to regain control of their border.
6. Aircraft strikes appear to be more effective than firing off a large number of short ranged, inaccurate rockets.
7. Although Lebanese casualities were higher, civilian casualties on both sides were very high.
8. Hezbollah's tactics of using civilians as human shields forced Israel to strike, causing much of Lebanese higher civilian casualties, despite firing off rockets indiscriminately against Israel.
9. Israel civil defence was better than Lebanese civil defence.
10. The UN lost face, far too much. Its peacekeepers along the border could not stop the war.
While it appears in the Muslim world Hezbollah won the war by not being wiped out, outside of the Muslim world Israel can make the same claim.
Both sides spend large amount of funds to fight this conflict with no results. Wouldn't it be better if both sides decided to settle their differences in a Christian like manner? This quote is from the Broadway musical/play: The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas.
1. Neither side won. Neither side acheived their goals. Prisoners are still being held on both sides.
2. Hezbollah was not wiped out by the Israelis. Because it survived does not mean it won the war.
3. Israel was not wiped out by Hezbollah. Because it survived does not mean it won the war.
4. Most of the destruction is in Lebanon. Lebanon lost the war by failing to protect its border.
5. Lebanon with UN support is attempting to regain control of their border.
6. Aircraft strikes appear to be more effective than firing off a large number of short ranged, inaccurate rockets.
7. Although Lebanese casualities were higher, civilian casualties on both sides were very high.
8. Hezbollah's tactics of using civilians as human shields forced Israel to strike, causing much of Lebanese higher civilian casualties, despite firing off rockets indiscriminately against Israel.
9. Israel civil defence was better than Lebanese civil defence.
10. The UN lost face, far too much. Its peacekeepers along the border could not stop the war.
While it appears in the Muslim world Hezbollah won the war by not being wiped out, outside of the Muslim world Israel can make the same claim.
Both sides spend large amount of funds to fight this conflict with no results. Wouldn't it be better if both sides decided to settle their differences in a Christian like manner? This quote is from the Broadway musical/play: The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas.
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