High Speed Train

[Ananda]

650 km/h in 7 seconds: China sets new record in maglev technology

In a significant breakthrough for China's magnetic levitation (maglev) technology, researchers from Hubei Province have successfully accelerated a 1.1-tonne test vehicle to 650 km/h within just 1,000 meters, using advanced magnetic levitation support and electromagnetic propulsion systems.

news.cgtn.com

It is already month old news, but only got time to put it here. This is still far from ready products, but increase potential of HST as alternative transportation for long range against Airliners. Question back to economics

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0965856420306005#:~:text=The%20analyses%20reveal%20that%20factors,cities%20that%20the%20system%20serves

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This is the study done in China where basically shows level of education and income still determine people preference on HST. Infact there are other media report that confirm this on preference of Western Chinese population using regular train especially on lower income brackets. This raise continues problem to Western bounds HST lines in China. It is important to shown politically that Western China is not neglected, but for China Railway company shown continue increase subsidized needed on that lines.

Add:

This is not HST photo, this is just new commuter train in Jakarta. However this shown continue rivalries between China and Japan on getting market share in increasing popular railway transportation in Asia.

The left one is Chinese made, while the right one is Indonesia made but with Japan license and Tech. This also reflect competition to market HST in Asia. Indonesia choose China made so far, India choose Japan made India's first bullet train reaches major milestone.

 

[Terran]

already month old news, but only got time to put it here. This is still far from ready products, but increase potential of HST as alternative transportation for long range against Airliners. Question back to economics

I don’t think that phrasing works. Long range Transportation today? Long range is intercontinental. Obviously trans oceanic is impractical at best for HSR or any train that doesn’t involve Total Recall type tunnels through the earths mantle.
We are talking “regional”. HSR’s sweet spot is generally between 100mi (190 km) to 600 mi (965km). At the 100mi point long enough that it’s awkward to drive at the 600mi short enough that aviation is just inefficient due to fuel consumption.
Even with a massive increase in speed potential offered by maglev I doubt it would change that much of the equation due to the necessity of development of the dedicated track. A track that wouldn’t be compatible with existing systems and would be a significantly higher cost than conventional HSR. With a Boeing 737-max cruise speed at over 520mph and this maglev setting the record in a dash at 387mph.

Being from the Land of Dodge Red, Chevrolet White and Ford Blue HSR hasn’t made the inroads it’s been in Asia or Europe though a lot of that comes from the problem of trying to get new infrastructure into highly populated and developed areas with high property values and strong restrictions on Eminent domain meaning that despite having the same trains as express German or French rail roads They suffer bridges and tracks designed for steam locomotives and share the railway with slow moving freight. Two things that are anathema to speed. I bring this up as along side the challenges of building such ambitious railway trying to challenge aviation is the problem that it’s not a sustained speed.
The key issue of the ACELA trains in the U.S. that keeps them from getting to the max speed of their euro siblings is the constant stop and start that comes from the over 100 year old route. The longer the route the more curves the less it can hold its dash. The longest operational maglev in the world is less than 19 miles (30km) and only sustains 300kph or 186mph. That is a speed that conventional HSR regularly meets and exceeds.

 

[Ananda]

don’t think that phrasing works. Long range Transportation today?

The long range in here is for typical Long Range HST railway neywork. Those above 4 hrs or 1200km or 800 miles. Base on Chinese and Japan experience that's where most customers (with HST average speed of 300km/hr) see it is still competitive enough against commercial airliners. Put 300 km/hr as average as current latest China and Japan HST run at max of 350km The world’s longest high-speed railway lines. The average can drop between 250-260km depends on how many stations has to stops. I have personaly taking Tokyo-Osaka nozomi shinkansen express service and time it close to 300 km/hr. Friend of mine already taking Guanzhou-Shanghai fastest service (thus less stops) also clock it around 300km/hr.

However for long range like Beijing to Urumqi in Xinjiang or Beijing to Lhasa in Tibet, report shown they (China Railway) facing tough competition from Airliners to fill the HST on that routes. For that so far they are not open HST routes for that line yet. China case is the barometer of HST, as no other place in this world currently has as extensive HST as China.

If they can come out with 500-600km/hr HST then Routes to Urumqi from Beijing of 3000 km can be doable for HST. Yes 600Km/hr still less then Airliner but HST goes directly from City center to City center not like most Airport in Suburb, and they are less time for passanger waiting in Train station then Airport. Again I use China and Japan HST customer experiences as bentchmark. Something that being replicate to other Asian large transportation market countries like India and Indonesia.

 

[John Fedup]

I don’t think that phrasing works. Long range Transportation today? Long range is intercontinental. Obviously trans oceanic is impractical at best for HSR or any train that doesn’t involve Total Recall type tunnels through the earths mantle.
We are talking “regional”. HSR’s sweet spot is generally between 100mi (190 km) to 600 mi (965km). At the 100mi point long enough that it’s awkward to drive at the 600mi short enough that aviation is just inefficient due to fuel consumption.
Even with a massive increase in speed potential offered by maglev I doubt it would change that much of the equation due to the necessity of development of the dedicated track. A track that wouldn’t be compatible with existing systems and would be a significantly higher cost than conventional HSR. With a Boeing 737-max cruise speed at over 520mph and this maglev setting the record in a dash at 387mph.

Being from the Land of Dodge Red, Chevrolet White and Ford Blue HSR hasn’t made the inroads it’s been in Asia or Europe though a lot of that comes from the problem of trying to get new infrastructure into highly populated and developed areas with high property values and strong restrictions on Eminent domain meaning that despite having the same trains as express German or French rail roads They suffer bridges and tracks designed for steam locomotives and share the railway with slow moving freight. Two things that are anathema to speed. I bring this up as along side the challenges of building such ambitious railway trying to challenge aviation is the problem that it’s not a sustained speed.
The key issue of the ACELA trains in the U.S. that keeps them from getting to the max speed of their euro siblings is the constant stop and start that comes from the over 100 year old route. The longer the route the more curves the less it can hold its dash. The longest operational maglev in the world is less than 19 miles (30km) and only sustains 300kph or 186mph. That is a speed that conventional HSR regularly meets and exceeds.

Canada has the same problems wrt HSR that the US has, old infrastructure, eminent domain (albeit to a lessor extent), and sharing rails with freight traffic. Population density restricts routes to the Windsor-Quebec City and Calgary-Edmonton corridors.

 

[Sender]

Canada has the same problems wrt HSR that the US has, old infrastructure, eminent domain (albeit to a lessor extent), and sharing rails with freight traffic. Population density restricts routes to the Windsor-Quebec City and Calgary-Edmonton corridors.

Very much a real thing now however, and strongly rumoured to be on the PM's list of high-priority nation building projects:

https://www.altotrain.ca/en

 

[John Fedup]

Very much a real thing now however, and strongly rumoured to be on the PM's list of high-priority nation building projects:

https://www.altotrain.ca/en

Is that so Doug Ford's tunnel under the 401 doesn't happen?

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Within this month the EU Commission will unveil the official project of "European High Speed Infrastructure" that will consist of 49.900 km of high speed railways to connect major european cities with high speed trains.

"Starline" is one of the proposals that were made to address this project.

Starline - 21st Europe

We collaborate with Europe’s brightest minds to design blueprints that spark conversations and inspire optimism for the continent’s next chapter.

21st-europe.com

The infrastructure will be part of the TEN-T network and will be completed in 2040, with some lines ready in 2030.
The expected cost is more than 500 billion euros.

TENtec Information System and TEN-T map library

TENtec is the European Commission's information system set up to coordinate and support the Trans-European Transport Network (TEN-T) policy.

transport.ec.europa.eu

 

[seaspear]

Joining up with Ireland is still to be by ferry unless the E.U opens its purse strings

 

[Ananda]

Building extensive inter city network like this, They will find similar problem that China Railway face. Not all inter city can provide similar margin. China HST network only profitable on East Coasts network, and some interior routes. Their Western and other interiors has to be cross subsidies by Eastern routes.

However all costs in China borne by one company and one government subsidy. It will be intersting on how Euro going to conduct cross subsidies toward small margin routes. That will eventually happen, potentially in Baltics or Eastern Euro. Moving HST from each nation oriented toward common EU company with potentially has to be cover by EU subsidies. Not easy compromising.

 

[seaspear]

Baltic countries I understood to be still using the wider rail gauge of Soviet times going on to a narrower gauge creates more efficiency even getting freight off roads is a plus

About the project - RB

Learn more about what Rail Baltica is, why it matters, and how it connects the Baltics with the European rail network.

www.railbaltica.org

 

[Ananda]

This the map on China extensive HST network. The area under red circle that according to their latest book that give profit. The rest still need subsidies either from profitable routes or Government incentive.

This is why I'm still not confince on EU try to coordinate one commercial entity for integrated Euro HST lines. Whose going to pay for unprofitable lines ? The cost to build and maintain HST line will be the same whether profitable or not. Whose going to cover it ?

If Spain Railway going to cover their own less profitable lines, or Japan Railway going to open new lines to Sapporo, it cross subsidise by their own pocket. Similar thing that happen to China. It is one nation line and railway company. The less profitable lines will happen, as not all demographic market is able to provide the same margin even the cost are similar.

 

[swerve]

That red oval may be more or less right in principle, but I suspect it's not completely accurate. It leaves out the Pearl River delta region, which produces over 9% of China's GDP in one megalopolis of connected cities. I expect the lines from there to Wuhan & the Yangtze delta are profitable. I wouldn't be surprised if the Wuhan-Chogqing route also makes money.

The lines to Xinjiang & even more to Tibet are political, not economic. The central government subsidises them to tie those regions to China.