Hezbollah landforces

merocaine

New Member
It would also be good terrain for a big mechanized assault but it is defenitely not good for those small israeli tank raid groups without enoug infantry and recon support
.

guess they did'ent take the other side to seriously, or else they did'ent fancy taking the causlties a large assault would entail. They only went in in numbers when they knew it was going to be called off the next day.
The IDF has managed the impossible, to look stupid and Weak.
They were standing there threating to do what it would have taken, while shouting at the international community, hold me back! hold me back!! please hold me back!!!

And you can bet the neighbourhood was watching real closely too....

Israel keeps banging on about all the weaponry Hezzbullah is getting from russia via Iran and Syria... they seem to be keeping pretty quiet about all those TOW missles they found. Any ideas where they came from??? thats a question that could cause a lot of red faces.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Hisbollah used TOW missiles?
Do you have some sources on this?

As I said before I also think that it looks like that the IDF leadership caused some serious mistakes.
But on the other hand we have no numbers of the casualties the Hisbollah suffered.
So we are not really able to compare it to the losses of the IDF which seem to be relatively high.
The Hisbollah also fired hundreds if not thousands of AT-Weapons. Some days ago Jane's talked about a minimum of 500 ATGMs.
Up to 30 armored vehicles have been seriously damaged/killed during this conflict.
So it is not like the Hisbollah just put a trigger and a tank exploded.
I also don't want to know how few ATGM-Teams got away alive after their attacks.
 

merocaine

New Member
yeah some fotos that excern was posting of captured Hezz gear, on this thread i think dated from 2001 0n there packing crates!!
Maybe Ejyptian army surplus!

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=640&d=1155231923

I heard the Hezz claiming that they lost 67 of there guys, the IDF claimes about 600, so I guess its something in the middle may be about 300 give or take.

I think the IDF were claiming that about 20% of hits were disabling there tanks, but I guess that would vairy depending on what weapon was used.
But who knows what the hit rate was?? a lot were shot at the maximim range so I guess a lot missed.
I think its the threat factor more than anything else.

I guess the best way to look at it would be to compare how well european light infantry would do with similiar situation. The IDF were claiming that the Hezz troops were able to preform like an infantry brigade, but I guess they could have been them just talking the Hezz up.

to be honest 30 sounds like a low number
 
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merocaine

New Member
I suppose they could be, but maybe those Kornets are just some stock that Israeli intelligence bought on the black market to put pressure on the syrians....

I dont think its impossible that Hezz could have gotten there hands on TOWS, there are a lot of american clients in the area.
 

ahussains

New Member
so far they fight well aginst the Israelies and they give them some tough time if this the start this is going to be diffuclt for the ISRAEL in future
 

.pt

New Member
Sorry for the off-topic, but i couldn´t resist...
Merocaine, by your reasoning, then almost every army in Europe, is constituted by poor slobs, weak people, who just want to party and have fun, with no stomach for a fight. That may be so, i guess everything depends on the level of threat that one nation may face during a period of time, but that alone does not determine the will to fight, and the efectiveness of an given army. As for the Isreali fear of casualties, either civilian or military, that is an old issue, Its been like that since the inception of the Israeli state, for two main reasons, the first one a mere demographic one, how much population Israel has, and what is the rato of birth, compared to the combined poplulation of its Arab neighbours, even excluding countries wich have peace treaties, such as Egypt and Jordan and their soaring populations, the second one, is that the the jewish culture is much more similar to the Western culture, in that it places a high value in human life, as oposed to other cultures.
Just my opinion.
.pt
 

merocaine

New Member
Merocaine, by your reasoning, then almost every army in Europe, is constituted by poor slobs, weak people, who just want to party and have fun, with no stomach for a fight. That may be so, i guess everything depends on the level of threat that one nation may face during a period of time, but that alone does not determine the will to fight, and the efectiveness of an given army.
Your not disagreeing with my logic I see...
Most European armys are professional, volenters, who are choosing a very risky occupation. Your not relaying on the average fun loving teenager to go and do your killing, in Israels case you are. Dont get me wrong I like conscript armys, some of the best in history were conscript armys.
Back in 48' the suez canal and 68' the Israelies deserved there reputation, the cracks started to show in Yom Kippur, they walked into the Leb in the 80's, but then they hit the Shia and it all went wrong...and has'ent stopped since. They had it easy with the Palistinians, the shia are a whole different situation.

As for the Isreali fear of casualties, either civilian or military, that is an old issue, Its been like that since the inception of the Israeli state, for two main reasons, the first one a mere demographic one, how much population Israel has, and what is the rato of birth, compared to the combined poplulation of its Arab neighbours, even excluding countries wich have peace treaties, such as Egypt and Jordan and their soaring populations, .
Thats there big weakness in my opinion. Kill enough and they give up. That in my book is dumb. Esp against the Shia who have no problem about dieing for the cause.

the second one, is that the the jewish culture is much more similar to the Western culture, in that it places a high value in human life, as oposed to other cultures.
Just my opinion
No No NO, we just put a high value on OUR lives, we love killing the other guy in as high a numbers as it takes. Hamburg? Nagaski? Heroshima? the holocost? the balkans? Vietnam? the spanish civil war? need I go on? I'm sure you can see my point. And to be honest when were fighting for something we belive in strongly enough, like our freedom we dont mind dieing all that much either. You just think we have a higher value on human life because us europeans have been so safe and warm for so long. If your country was a war zone you'd be suprised how quickly you'd get used to death, war, and dieing, pretty soon it would seem quite normal.

peace out (long may we be safe and warm)
 

interseptor

New Member
Mosnews.com said:
The 20 soldiers from Israel’s elite Golani Brigade moved through the darkness over the rocky hills of Lebanon until they arrived at the outskirts of this Shi’ite town that until last month contained 35,000 residents. The unit entered an unfinished house to prepare for combat within a few hours.

The troops, however, never advanced beyond their two-story hideout. Hezbollah gunners, believed to have been hiding in the ruins of Bint Jbail, spotted the Israeli force and directed mortar, anti-tank and machine gun fire that trapped the elite Israeli unit for 36 hours in an area thought to have been cleared of the enemy.

Russian-born Israeli soldiers said Hezbollah fighters were better trained and equipped than the Chechens. They added that Hezbollah’s tactics reminded them of Chechen rebels, The World Tribune daily reported.

“Hezbollah is tougher,” Vladi, an infantry sniper, said.

On Tuesday, Hezbollah escalated ceasefire violations and fired artillery shells toward retreating Israeli soldiers, Middle East Newsline reported. At the same time, parliamentarians called for the resignation of Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, who acknowledged that he sold his investment portfolio hours after the Hezbollah abduction of two Israeli soldiers on July 12.

Military sources said numerous Israeli combat units, without effective air or armor support, spent most of their time in Lebanon paralyzed by Hezbollah fire. They said hundreds of soldiers were often overwhelmed by as few as a dozen Hezbollah mortar and anti-tank gunners within sight of the Israeli border.

In all, Israel sent 30,000 soldiers to Lebanon. At least 118 soldiers were killed in the 33-day fighting. The military said 530 Hezbollah operatives were killed.

“From the point of view of the individual soldier, they are better than the Arab armies that surround us,” Col. Omri Bar-David, a reserve battalion commander, said.

In several cases, Israeli commanders, citing Hezbollah squads, dismissed orders to advance. The military reported the detention of five Engineering Corps soldiers, including a reserve company commander, for refusing to embark on a mission in Lebanon.

“There is a lot of confusion,” Anon, a soldier not involved in the courtmartial, said. “We go in, we come out. We go in, we come out.”

The 20-man unit from the Golani Brigade’s 51st Battalion arrived in Bint Jbail on Aug. 10. Hezbollah first disabled a Merkava Mk-3 main battle tank with an AT-14 Kornet anti-tank missile.

Then, Hezbollah gunners directed anti-tank fire toward the building that contained the Israeli force. The unit, which sustained eight casualties in Bint Jbail on July 26, huddled in a first floor bathroom, deemed the most secure part of the building.

“It’s been ugly,” Dudi Levisohn, a member of the Golani squad, said. “But it’s our job. We have to do it. We suffer so the people in Tel Aviv can enjoy themselves.”
Military sources said Hezbollah also forced Israeli units to turn off their communications and tracking equipment. They said Hezbollah deployed systems designed to identify a range of signals, including those of cell phones.

“During the day, Hezbollah sees us perfectly and we can’t see them,” another officer said. “The only time we conducted operations were at night because we believed our night vision systems were better than theirs.”

In another battle, an infantry battalion fought 24 hours to advance three houses in a Shi’ite village. The soldiers were pinned down by heavy Hezbollah anti-tank fire from a network of tunnels and bunkers.

“You don’t have to worry about bullets,” an officer, identified only as Eyal, said. “It’s the anti-tank missiles.”

Military sources said Hezbollah has been trained in guerrilla tactics by Iranian and Syrian instructors. They said the tactics were developed from lessons learned by the Vietcong in the war with the United States. “They have studied Western armies to see how we make war and they have prepared themselves for six years,” Yossi, an officer, said.

With the onset of the United Nations-arranged ceasefire, Israeli soldiers, particularly reservists, have expressed increasing criticism of senior commanders. On Monday, reservists were angered when Northern Command chief Maj. Gen. Udi Adam termed Hezbollah a terrorist group.

“They are professionals,” a soldier who returned from Lebanon said. “They have new weapons. There have been no improvement in our tanks in 10 years. Their mission is clear — to hurt us. And they can do this very well. Don’t say they are not soldiers. They are soldiers.”
www.mosnews.com/news/2006/08/16/hizbullahchechens_.shtml
Hezbollah is little but dangerous, army with experience and intelligence as good as the Israelis, Israel was shocked at the resilience of this small but lethal army. There key weapon was to unite the Lebanese population, tell them the distinction between Israel and freedom. And they were successful in doing so, it is alleged that at 200 Israelis died even though the media is not telling the out come.

Israeli now knows this is not the Hezbollah of 1996. They have trained optimum to compete against what is alleged to be one of the worlds best army I doubt that because American weapons supplied to the Israelis, and American engineers working on the Arrow and Merkeva tank, Israel is not dope enough to switch self glorification!

[FONT=&quot]If Israel attacks Iran, it knows now that it has more than an enemy on its border[/FONT]
 
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i don't see hezbollah disarming after doing so much damage against the idf. they might move north of the litani river with their weapons but no chance of them disarming. they are also winning the hearts and minds of the people. they have already distributed money to residents who have lost their homes to rebuild. the labanese govt. and international community can't disarm them without the support of people of southern lebanon.
 
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utelore

New Member
I think the destruction of several Merkava MBT proves that Hezbollah has the TOW, Kornet or Metis-M ATGW. I think the main problem for the region is Iran and Syria. If enough pressure is put on those two to prevent weapons from going to Hezbollah you will see the ability of Hezbollah to attack Israel drop on a major level. There is a hypothetical military scenario at www.victoryamerica.blogspot.com which goes into a U.S war with Iran which may look like a very large scale Hezbollah vs Israel.
 

SU 30MKI

New Member
merocaine said:
yeah some fotos that excern was posting of captured Hezz gear, on this thread i think dated from 2001 0n there packing crates!!
Maybe Ejyptian army surplus!

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=640&d=1155231923

I heard the Hezz claiming that they lost 67 of there guys, the IDF claimes about 600, so I guess its something in the middle may be about 300 give or take.

I think the IDF were claiming that about 20% of hits were disabling there tanks, but I guess that would vairy depending on what weapon was used.
But who knows what the hit rate was?? a lot were shot at the maximim range so I guess a lot missed.
I think its the threat factor more than anything else.

I guess the best way to look at it would be to compare how well european light infantry would do with similiar situation. The IDF were claiming that the Hezz troops were able to preform like an infantry brigade, but I guess they could have been them just talking the Hezz up.

to be honest 30 sounds like a low number
IDF showed 350 Confirm Kills with proof and while claims around 450 which will acceptable figure because Hezz lied on every account, they always tried to hide their lost. Like they always said they always intercept ISreali commando etc but when isreali showed the video things was different.

Hezz suffered a hevy loss of its army in this conflict and also in the verge of loosing PR war, thats why they run first to provide money to public in order to buy their loyality which is most common in arab country.
 

Ding

Member
SU 30MKI said:
IDF showed 350 Confirm Kills with proof and while claims around 450 which will acceptable figure because Hezz lied on every account, they always tried to hide their lost. Like they always said they always intercept ISreali commando etc but when isreali showed the video things was different.

Hezz suffered a hevy loss of its army in this conflict and also in the verge of loosing PR war, thats why they run first to provide money to public in order to buy their loyality which is most common in arab country.
dude how do you know what's common in an arab country? you live there? no? then dont generelise. This is an interesting thread until you came in with generelizations/assumptions because of your prejudices. Truth is we do not know jack about casualty and/or losses. We may speculate - as we have been doing - and try to reason on it. Some of us may side more towards the Israelis and some expresses admiration for the Hezzbollahs. Fine, to each his own. But we discuss on what we know, speculate or read. Not on assumptions saying "oh these guys loss alot, are nearly wiped out and started paying people to get loyalty because that's the norm" it's just pure assumption on your part. stick with the program, dude
 

brian00

New Member
This is a fascinating thread

Israel has been disguising its loses (especially tanks) for a long time

The variety of anti tank weapons used by hez is so modern and diverse, i'm surprised so few have filtered through to iraq, I know there were reports of rpg29s being used against the british forces in the south

Israel's tanks have taken the brunt of the attacks and lost many of their modern merkava 3/4s, with many more in need of repair. They need to change tactics, and maybe research electric armour
 

contedicavour

New Member
brian00 said:
This is a fascinating thread

Israel has been disguising its loses (especially tanks) for a long time

The variety of anti tank weapons used by hez is so modern and diverse, i'm surprised so few have filtered through to iraq, I know there were reports of rpg29s being used against the british forces in the south

Israel's tanks have taken the brunt of the attacks and lost many of their modern merkava 3/4s, with many more in need of repair. They need to change tactics, and maybe research electric armour
Apparently IDF's biggest mistake was to send in MBTs without appropriate infantry (aboard AIFVs) cover. It's amazing how even the heaviest MBTs can be useless unless properly accompanied. Though this was already clear back in WW2, when the underequipped Italian troops took out heavy British MBTs in the Libyan desert ... with molotov cocktails and a few artillery.
History keeps repeating itself...
 

.pt

New Member
Contedicavour,
Sorry for the offtopic.
Interesting History that you tell. My knowledge on those campaigns in Lybia and egypt, is based in German or British books, and in general they either are omiss or not very kind to the Italian forces, a general misconception, i believe.
So they did fare well against the british altough being very poorly equiped, using infantry with rudimentary antitank weapons and artillery? didn´t know that.
Is there any good book on that subject?
thanks.
.pt
 

merocaine

New Member
It's amazing how even the heaviest MBTs can be useless unless properly accompanied. Though this was already clear back in WW2, when the underequipped Italian troops took out heavy British MBTs in the Libyan desert ... with molotov cocktails and a few artillery.
Yeah I was wondering about that myself, I've been working on a theory...feel free to shoot it full of holes.

I noticed on some of the streamed CNN and other news stations that the Isreali MBT's were advancing in penny packets (2 to 3 tanks at a time.) I believe that this is how they operate in the occupied terriories. One tank advances with the others covering. Due to the Pals poverty in anti tank weapons this works. The lead tank takes a hit on the turret from, at most a RPG-7, no bother to the Israeli MBT, seconds later the Pal gets zapped by the covering fire.
It seems the same tactic was employed in the Lebanon, except the Hezzbullah had modern anti tank weapons, and what was probobly crusial, effective fire control. A tank gets hit maybe disabling it, unable to retreat it signals for help, another tank or bulldozer try's to tow it, and it in turn is hit from a comoflaged position.
I think the Israeli's got used to using there tanks to draw fire, and decieded to treat the Lebanon like they would a refugee camp in Gaza. I'm sure the Hezzbullah anti Tank gunners took heavy losses in those exchanges, but not heavy enough for the Isreali's to roll them up.

I've said before that I thought the Isrealies should have punched through with a heavy armoured force and tried to cut the Hezzbullah supply lines early on in the fight, sure the would have lost tanks, but they lost tanks anyway with the slow advances, and they lost the engagement(its asemetrical warfare so dont jump on me with body count figures, politics are what matters at the end of the war, and however you dice it Hezzbullah have been strenghtened.)
Hezzbullah did'ent retreat, they held ground, and I believe would have been vunreble to a rapid encircling manover. Wheater the Israeli's could have pulled that off is another question. I do believe that Israeli fear of causties went a good way to losing them this fight.
 

Scorpius

New Member
can't believe what has been said here.
Hezbullah kicked @$$ TOO???

me believes Iran is really behind it,to divert Israel's attention from its nuclear program.
 
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