H & K 416
- Thread starter USNavySEAL3310
- Start date
There's a recurring problem with those claims of M16/M4 "frequently jamming" in Iraq and Afghanistan.
They will invariably start out by talking about the M16/M4's notorious carbon-fouling gas system and then switch lane smoothly to talk about the weapon's susceptibility to sand and dust.
And they won't make a concrete connection between the two.
...
Take this M4 jam in Afghanistan incident for example: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/
FIRST PROBLEM WITH THE STORY
The ranger's C47 chopper just crashed landed. This could mean that he just came fresh from a base, where I assume his rifle must be reasonably free of sand. And a helicopter ride shouldn't expose you to as much sand as walking, for example.
So his weapon jam is unlikely to have been caused by sand.
SECOND PROBLEM WITH THE STORY
His weapon jammed soon after firing. So he can't have fired that many rounds.
So his M4 can't have jammed due to carbon build up.
THIRD PROBLEM WITH THE STORY
The ranger himself did not blame the gas system nor did he ID the cause of the jam - and most importantly - he did not criticize the M4 per se. He did not say it's a frequent occurence.
All the criticism and insinuation came from the author himself, as well as all the lavish praise for the HK416.
...
Since the real cause of the jam was not postmortem and not verified, how can author claim that the cure should be a HK416?
The M4 in the story must be relatively clean. The double feed could have been cause by a bad magazine.
If the same bad magazine was inserted into a HK416, the double feed would still have occurred, piston-drive or not wouldn't have made any difference.
Most such stories just expects you to accept without question that the M4 jammed due to its gas system.
If the M4 jam was not caused by the gas system, then would we have been duped into buying the wrong medicine in the HK416?
They will invariably start out by talking about the M16/M4's notorious carbon-fouling gas system and then switch lane smoothly to talk about the weapon's susceptibility to sand and dust.
And they won't make a concrete connection between the two.
...
Take this M4 jam in Afghanistan incident for example: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/
FIRST PROBLEM WITH THE STORY
The ranger's C47 chopper just crashed landed. This could mean that he just came fresh from a base, where I assume his rifle must be reasonably free of sand. And a helicopter ride shouldn't expose you to as much sand as walking, for example.
So his weapon jam is unlikely to have been caused by sand.
SECOND PROBLEM WITH THE STORY
His weapon jammed soon after firing. So he can't have fired that many rounds.
So his M4 can't have jammed due to carbon build up.
THIRD PROBLEM WITH THE STORY
The ranger himself did not blame the gas system nor did he ID the cause of the jam - and most importantly - he did not criticize the M4 per se. He did not say it's a frequent occurence.
All the criticism and insinuation came from the author himself, as well as all the lavish praise for the HK416.
...
Since the real cause of the jam was not postmortem and not verified, how can author claim that the cure should be a HK416?
The M4 in the story must be relatively clean. The double feed could have been cause by a bad magazine.
If the same bad magazine was inserted into a HK416, the double feed would still have occurred, piston-drive or not wouldn't have made any difference.
Most such stories just expects you to accept without question that the M4 jammed due to its gas system.
If the M4 jam was not caused by the gas system, then would we have been duped into buying the wrong medicine in the HK416?
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If the M4 is such a POS why then the SAS of England, Australia and NZ all chose it over their respective military's prefered bullpups?
Or indeed, over ANY other firearms they can have?
And of course, when in doubt, ask the Israelis. All the more reason cos they live and fight in the desert.
Most of the wars they fought are for the survival of the nation, so they dispense with the luxury of little political intrigues.
When something doesn't work, the IDF throw them away. When something works, the IDF keep them. PERIOD.
...
E.g. the superb FN FAL was used for less than a decade before being retired as they were found to malfunction in the sand.
And guess what? The FN FAL is a PISTON-DRIVEN weapon.
So PISTON-DRIVE as a magic bullet for reliability in the desert over the M16's gas system is pure rubbish!!!
Instead, the IDF loved the M16 and kept it for over 30 years in preference over their own Galil even. Why didn't we hear of them complaining about jams and sand etc? Yes they are now switching over to the Tavor but only because the Tavor is better, not because the M16/M4 didn't work.
EDIT: It tickles me to no end that the Israelis found the "problematic" M16 to be more reliable that the famed FN FAL in the desert.
Or indeed, over ANY other firearms they can have?
And of course, when in doubt, ask the Israelis. All the more reason cos they live and fight in the desert.
Most of the wars they fought are for the survival of the nation, so they dispense with the luxury of little political intrigues.
When something doesn't work, the IDF throw them away. When something works, the IDF keep them. PERIOD.
...
E.g. the superb FN FAL was used for less than a decade before being retired as they were found to malfunction in the sand.
And guess what? The FN FAL is a PISTON-DRIVEN weapon.
So PISTON-DRIVE as a magic bullet for reliability in the desert over the M16's gas system is pure rubbish!!!
Instead, the IDF loved the M16 and kept it for over 30 years in preference over their own Galil even. Why didn't we hear of them complaining about jams and sand etc? Yes they are now switching over to the Tavor but only because the Tavor is better, not because the M16/M4 didn't work.
EDIT: It tickles me to no end that the Israelis found the "problematic" M16 to be more reliable that the famed FN FAL in the desert.
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Good points Chino - alot of these concerns inregards to the M16 family is over blown, the troops are getting the job done with the M4.
What is the M16's achilles heel?
It's the rotating bolt.
If this thing cannot move freely and smoothly, the weapon will NOT feed, extract... etc.
You have to oil this bugger lightly, too much is bad and no oil is also trouble.
The M16's gas system puts carbon into the rotating bolt which eventually clogs it up and causes stoppages etc.
But this only happens to weapons that have been fired a great deal.
...
But the rumour spreaders now alleges that fine desert dust can clog up an M16. And IMO, if this is truly happening, it can only mean that once again, it is the rotating bolt that is affected. For there is absolutely no other parts of the rifle that is so sensitive and can be affected by a buildup of fine dust.
So, there we have it, a new problem: fine dust clogging the rotating bolt.
...
However, this raises an issue for the HK416's much vaunted piston-drive:
The HK416 piston-drive eliminates the carbon problem. But this new clogging problem has nothing to do with carbon. It is sand, isn't it?
Furthermore, the piston can only push the bolt carrier.
If the rotating bolt is clogged with fine dust, the piston can push the bolt carrier all it wants - the weapon will still not function.
It's the rotating bolt.
If this thing cannot move freely and smoothly, the weapon will NOT feed, extract... etc.
You have to oil this bugger lightly, too much is bad and no oil is also trouble.
The M16's gas system puts carbon into the rotating bolt which eventually clogs it up and causes stoppages etc.
But this only happens to weapons that have been fired a great deal.
...
But the rumour spreaders now alleges that fine desert dust can clog up an M16. And IMO, if this is truly happening, it can only mean that once again, it is the rotating bolt that is affected. For there is absolutely no other parts of the rifle that is so sensitive and can be affected by a buildup of fine dust.
So, there we have it, a new problem: fine dust clogging the rotating bolt.
...
However, this raises an issue for the HK416's much vaunted piston-drive:
The HK416 piston-drive eliminates the carbon problem. But this new clogging problem has nothing to do with carbon. It is sand, isn't it?
Furthermore, the piston can only push the bolt carrier.
If the rotating bolt is clogged with fine dust, the piston can push the bolt carrier all it wants - the weapon will still not function.
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You raised good points. which are defenitely valid.
But I would not say that the Israelis using M16 instead of their own Galil is a good example.
They can buy the M16 with military aid for low price. And the Galil is not really a lightweight.
For a country which has to look closely at it's non-US funded part of budget it is not that hard of a decision to opt for M-16s.
But I would not say that the Israelis using M16 instead of their own Galil is a good example.
They can buy the M16 with military aid for low price. And the Galil is not really a lightweight.
For a country which has to look closely at it's non-US funded part of budget it is not that hard of a decision to opt for M-16s.
Yes, I agree. But if the M16 was faulty in the desert, the IDF HAD a backup already in stock in the form of the Galil. But they never had to resort to using the Galil much cos the M16 worked in the desert.
Where some of the problem lies is where the rotating bolt flanges enter the rifle barrel flanges, if you do not clean both ends properly and let carbon and other debris rest in these grooves then the bolt cannot enter the barrel preventing a good lock up. This is where cleaning especially on the barrel flange side is a bugger being time consuming and some soldiers do not place any effort into it. A good NCO would conduct periodic inspections to ensure that they are doing this.
sempertalis
New Member
The Norwegian army has chosen the HK416 as their new rifle and ordered some 30000. Say goodbye to the good old G3!
Am I totally wrong here but didn't the Norwegian Army also order "some" HK417's?
Regards,
BUG
Regards,
BUG
I believe the number is about 8500... Unless something happened recently...
And also a few MP-7 and HK417...
sempertalis
New Member
Ok! Checked the net, U R right! Mea culpa.
Unless, met a Norwegian soldier in a very special school in Germany and he said the ultimate number would be around 30000. Let´s wait and see? :unknown
sempertalis
New Member
Which school was that if I may ask?
Altenburg?
No, a school where many different nations train together and do "special" stuff. It´s in the south and the Bodensee is rather nearby.
Nope. There's actually quite a number of "schools" within that area.
Could be:
Sigmaringen (NBC School)
Calw (KSK)
Mittenwald (German Mountain Inf School)
Saalfelden (Austrian Mountain Inf School)
Sonthofen (MP School)
Stetten am kalten Markt (MP Bodyguard/VIP Protection Training)
Münsingen (Urban Combat Training Site) is out at least, closed in 2005.
(actually, i think i forgot one or two... oh well)
*cough* ... yes, this post will confuse people.
Nah, not that unfriendly really. I have family who lives ... well, in the same area. Winter lasts 8-9 months there
Damn glad that back then 10 years ago we never went. We were originally supposed to go there for training, then to Münsingen for urban combat instead (didn't pan out either for lack of money) - then went to some run-down shoddy training site north of Kassel instead.