German Navy: Third Combat Support Ship instead of F125-Frigates?
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contedicavour
New Member
That's why we consider Forcieri (under sec of defence) as our Lord of Creative Accounting@Conte
You have to consider the usual gap between reality and politics.
By the way, the government almost capsized over the vote to finance the Afghanistan mission, but at the end the vote went through and of course the financing is extra MOD.
cheers
there are joint programs in the Blalkens with each country buying different bits of kit like some are buying new fighters others arty and it seems to work well. the Blalkens countries don't seem to want expeditionary warfare
contedicavour
New Member
Well as you probably saw, the govt did survive... although I'd love it to collapse and be replaced by centre-right... from a defence policy standpoint it has done very positive things :@Conte
Isn't this government collapsing business as usual in Italy.
> it found 1.7 bn euro extra funds for defence acquisition
> it refunded programmes that were on the brink of being cancelled, from FREMM to our 8x8 VBC "Freccia" troop transports
> it signed phase 2 of F-35 despite the radical left's objections
> it is finding creative ways of financing foreign missions and our 4th LPD
... and most of this is thanks to undersecretary Forcieri who has been the best defender of Finmeccanica/Oto Melara/Fincantieri in decades.
cheers
As much as I like LPD's, I don't see the need for Germany to operate such kind of vessels. To my knowledge, the plan of invading the British Islands was buried in 1941.
So far, the EGV's have done well in desaster relieve. I welcome the decison to procure a third vessel, and like the idea of getting a fourth one.
Which interests does Germany have to protect, that require LPD's ?
If Germany really had such interests, then minimum would be 2 ships, better 3-4 to have a reliable capability.
Including necessary reshaping of force structures, this would cost well above € 10 billions. (And would most probably take 20 years to get a running system)
I would prefer to keep the competences in ASW and improve competences in naval intelligence.
There are much more urgent things. Improvements in C4I, new APC's, CH-53 replacement, Eurofighter tranche 3... the list is long.
Not to forget that the budget to train personal is by far to low.
So far, the EGV's have done well in desaster relieve. I welcome the decison to procure a third vessel, and like the idea of getting a fourth one.
Which interests does Germany have to protect, that require LPD's ?
If Germany really had such interests, then minimum would be 2 ships, better 3-4 to have a reliable capability.
Including necessary reshaping of force structures, this would cost well above € 10 billions. (And would most probably take 20 years to get a running system)
I would prefer to keep the competences in ASW and improve competences in naval intelligence.
There are much more urgent things. Improvements in C4I, new APC's, CH-53 replacement, Eurofighter tranche 3... the list is long.
Not to forget that the budget to train personal is by far to low.
I won't claim to understand the cost issues, but if you don't think the LPD is a platform that enables ASW, C4I, the APCs your talking about, or the CH-53 you aren't being very creative.
As costs continue to grow in building naval vessels, it will be necessary for naval commanders who look at traditional ships like a LPD and see more than the traditional role in its operational use.
The point is, the German military is already underfunded. (Nominally €3 billion a year lack) Such expansive toys as LPD's won't help that matter.
If the money is spend on them, then there is no funding for helicopters, APC's, C4I.
Btw, which ships should escort those big fat targets in littorals, if we have no capable ASW assets left after F 122 gone ? Those stupid gunboats ?
If the money is spend on them, then there is no funding for helicopters, APC's, C4I.
Btw, which ships should escort those big fat targets in littorals, if we have no capable ASW assets left after F 122 gone ? Those stupid gunboats ?
ASW: 8 F122 dedicated ASW frigates with 16 ASW helos (or, for the future, the F123 upgraded with their new towed arrays, plus the 8 helos of the four F125) are better than about anything a single LPD (unlike a LHD) could bring in .
C4I: The Navy has way more than enough of that anyway. The entire F123 and F124 classes, as well as the second four units of the F122 class are all equipped as "taskforce leaders" for staff personnel. current C4I spendings focus on the Army, and on general recon systems (like the network of 5 recon satellites Germany is currently installing).
APCs: Heer, not Navy. and the APCs (M113, Fuchs replacements, and we're talking about 2,000 vehicles total), unlike the IFV replacement, aren't even in the budget considerations until 2011 yet, except for a few dozen Boxers.
CH-53: there isn't even enough money to keep those that we still have flying. and not just in Afghanistan. the Navy itself is already scraping to get just a few more NH-90.
the budget situation is basically:
- definitely no new projects before 2013, other than "urgent need" (and a LPD definitely isn't urgent need, unlike the third EGV to effectively replace 40-year-old auxiliaries).
- first stuff to look at post-2013 will be: APCs, upgrading or replacing the rest of the CH-53 fleet, funding for trainer aircraft (European project, even though Germany moved down to observer status now), two more U212 (to keep at least 8 subs), second five K130 or other "light frigate"/"corvette" project to replace the Type 143A sometime after 2015.
- the secondary stuff list is far longer, and about doesn't include anything for the navy really, except maybe a fourth EGV.
- until 2013, roughly, there's a lack of about 1.1 to 1.5 billion per year. projects are stretched to accomodate that somewhat already. in 2013, a lot of the current major acquisitions (Puma IFV mostly) will be finished, next step down is in 2017 with the final Eurofighter and NH-90 deliveries.
for the new training aircraft would hawks or the Italian 130s be good for Germanys new trainers
there's a Europe-wide trainer project, "Eurotrainer", which will share about 150 aircraft for all participating nations, to go into service between 2009 and 2020.
Participating airforces in "Eurotrainer" are Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland.
Current contenders are the EADS MAKO HEAT, Aermacchi M-346 (based on Yak-130) and the T-50 Golden Eagle (unlikely to be chosen), with an aircraft to be chosen by the end of 2007. BAe bid the Hawk in the beginning iirc, but retracted it to focus on the separate UK trainer requirement.
i personaly can't see the MAKO winning as it has no exports and as far as i know there isn't even a protoype thanks for the info. are anyother EU nations intersted in updateing their trainers [sorry about such an OT question]
contedicavour
New Member
A bit off-topic but the Korean Golden Eagle is supersonic (mach 1.4) and even a bit more than a lead-in trainer (and of course a lot more expensive at 22 million USD apiece vs 15 for a M346). Source is an article in the March edition of RID (Italian defence magazine)
cheers
[sorry about OT ness] but i can't see the K50 getting anyway it is in my opinion a new Jaguar. That was orginaly mooted as a new jet trainer which was supersonic but lost out to subsonic trainers
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #96
Here's some news about the F125 program: http://www.marineforum.info/HEFT_4-2007/Stabilisierungsschiff/stabilisierungsschiff.html
I'll try to find time and translate the article in the next days, as it's very interesting.
I'll try to find time and translate the article in the next days, as it's very interesting.
contedicavour
New Member
What I find interesting in the article is the idea of an export F125 as a 3rd contender between LCS and FREMM. This is a bit strange since the LCS and the FREMM really don't belong to the same category at all... but the idea of coming up with a good heir to the MEKO family with enhanced land attack features is very interesting.
cheers
cheers
Mangusta CBT
New Member
Germany select Italian made OTO Melara 127 LW naval cannon for F-125 frigates
Article in Italian
http://www.cittadellaspezia.com/leggi_articolo.asp?id=20139&sp=10
:
Probably germany will buy the new 127/64 "extended range" cannon that can fire the future OTO Melara "Vulcano" guided shell
Article in Italian
http://www.cittadellaspezia.com/leggi_articolo.asp?id=20139&sp=10
:Probably germany will buy the new 127/64 "extended range" cannon that can fire the future OTO Melara "Vulcano" guided shell