FX impact on the MMRCA?

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A French news source has divulged that Dassault has not agreed to a 40% reduction in price of the Rafale offered to Brazil. The price reduction was made by the French government as requested by President Lula to President Sarkozy

This 40% price reduction (from the initial Euro 98M price) was one of President' Lula's requirements to seal the Rafale deal once he backtracked from an earlier statement saying the Rafale was the final choice.

The French are now going to pin their hopes on a "political decision".

article in Portuguese:
Dassault nega redução de 40% em preço do Rafale para o Brasil

article in French:
Le prix du Rafale en piqué pour favoriser une vente au brésil
 

zeven

New Member
UK support bolsters Sweden's Gripen offer to Brazil


By Craig Hoyle: Fligtglobal 06/11/09

Brazil is expected to make an announcement about its initial 36-aircraft FX-2 fighter deal around late November, following an evaluation involving the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen NG.

Industry sources say a platform selection should be confirmed by Brazil's National Defence Council - chaired by president Luiz Ignacio Lula da Silva - following the delivery of a 26,000-page report compiled by the nation's air force and overseen by service chief Lt Brig Juniti Saito.

With a decision close at hand, Saab has mounted a final push to promote its Gripen NG, which it claims is the preferred candidate of both the Brazilian air force and Embraer, which will partner the selected company for local production of the chosen aircraft.

The Swedish company's efforts have also gained late support from the UK government, which has thrown its weight firmly behind the Gripen following the selection of Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems' Vixen 1000E/ES05 Raven active electronically scanned array radar for the NG model.

The UK Trade & Investment body says British content in the Gripen NG currently stands at 20% by value, primarily thanks to the radar selection, and that the possible integration of additional equipment could increase this to around 25%.

The outcome of the FX-2 contest appeared to have already been determined on 7 September, when da Silva and his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy held a joint press conference in which the Rafale was named as the preferred candidate.

However, the Brazilian defence ministry swiftly distanced itself from the claim, and invited a second round of best and final offers from all three bidding companies.

One industry source says Saab is fearful that political motives could see the Rafale win in Brazil, with a selection to further strengthen the nation's strategic relationship with France.[qoute]

I can't wait for this to end.

Da Silva's government has already inked deals worth around $12 billion to acquire French-supplied equipment including Eurocopter EC725 helicopters and submarines.

Saab is promoting the Gripen NG's promised lower acquisition and operating costs over its twin-engine rivals, and has made significant pledges on industrial and technical partnership deals.

"Our sole intention is to share our technology," says a company official, who adds: "we can make a material difference to their industry."

Sweden's final offer includes an offset package worth 175% of the FX-2 contract's value, with this to include joint development activities on the Gripen NG. Saab's intention is to enable first production examples to roll off production lines in Brazil and Sweden simultaneously during 2014.

Its offer would also allow Embraer to lead future export campaigns in Latin America. Saab has already identified potential sales opportunities with Argentina, Colombia, Ecuador, Mexico and Peru.

Sweden will evaluate the KC-390 transport if Brazil picks the Gripen

Additional benefit to Brazilian industry could come via a Saab proposal to pitch Embraer's EMB-314 Super Tucano turboprop trainer and developmental KC-390 tanker/transport to the Swedish air force. Stockholm needs to acquire replacements for its aged Saab 105s and Lockheed Martin C-130s within around the next decade, it notes.

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...to-brazil.html
 

swerve

Super Moderator
A French news source has divulged that Dassault has not agreed to a 40% reduction in price of the Rafale offered to Brazil. The price reduction was made by the French government as requested by President Lula to President Sarkozy

This 40% price reduction (from the initial Euro 98M price) was one of President' Lula's requirements to seal the Rafale deal once he backtracked from an earlier statement saying the Rafale was the final choice.

The French are now going to pin their hopes on a "political decision".
I'd very much like to know the basis for the 98 mn Euro price. IIRC France is paying 50+ million for the aircraft, nothing more. All spares, etc. are paid for separately. The AESA radar will put the purchase price up a bit, though probably reduce life time cost. Is 98 million the contract price, or the bare aircraft price? It seems extraordinarily high for the latter.

Additional benefit to Brazilian industry could come via a Saab proposal to pitch Embraer's EMB-314 Super Tucano turboprop trainer and developmental KC-390 tanker/transport to the Swedish air force. Stockholm needs to acquire replacements for its aged Saab 105s and Lockheed Martin C-130s within around the next decade, it notes.
SAAB & Embraer would be able to offer almost a complete air force if they got together. Fighters, AEW, MPAs, trainers, tanker/transports . . .
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
SAAB & Embraer would be able to offer almost a complete air force if they got together. Fighters, AEW, MPAs, trainers, tanker/transports . . .
As well as provide both the Swedes and Brazilians with a market for their products, between the two countries. It seems like a really graceful solution to Saabs problems with shrinking domestic purchases, and offers pretty major technology incentives to Brazil.
 

dragonfire

New Member
A French news source has divulged that Dassault has not agreed to a 40% reduction in price of the Rafale offered to Brazil. The price reduction was made by the French government as requested by President Lula to President Sarkozy

This 40% price reduction (from the initial Euro 98M price) was one of President' Lula's requirements to seal the Rafale deal once he backtracked from an earlier statement saying the Rafale was the final choice.

The French are now going to pin their hopes on a "political decision".

article in Portuguese:
Dassault nega redução de 40% em preço do Rafale para o Brasil

article in French:
Le prix du Rafale en piqué pour favoriser une vente au brésil
Now if that happens then it could definitely figure in the MMRCA finalisation as price always plays an important role, it could definitely hedge the negative feeligs for Dassault which came about when they asked for a huge price for modernising and upgrading the Mirage 2000 fleet with the IAF.

Also will economies of scale come into play if there is a brazilian order followed by an Indian order. Is there scope of the price dropping due to big orders
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Now if that happens then it could definitely figure in the MMRCA finalisation as price always plays an important role, it could definitely hedge the negative feeligs for Dassault which came about when they asked for a huge price for modernising and upgrading the Mirage 2000 fleet with the IAF.

Also will economies of scale come into play if there is a brazilian order followed by an Indian order. Is there scope of the price dropping due to big orders
I had addressed this "economies of scale" issue earlier. In the case of both F-X2 and MRCA should the same aircraft win, IMHO it will not happen for two reasons:
1) The orders will come at different times, and
2) The aircraft will need to be manufactured locally.
 

dragonfire

New Member
I had addressed this "economies of scale" issue earlier. In the case of both F-X2 and MRCA should the same aircraft win, IMHO it will not happen for two reasons:
1) The orders will come at different times, and
2) The aircraft will need to be manufactured locally.
If the Brazillians are given a special price then there is no way India will even think of paying a rupee more :D

Even if India doesnt finalize the rafale in order to India to consider it the price will have to be at par with what has been offered earlier to other customers and then that will become the base price post which India will negotiate further stating that the Indian Order size is directly three times the brazilian order
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Dassault still refuses to budge on price reduction for the Rafale F-X2 offer.

Admiral Edouard Guillaud a special envoy for Sarkozy during an interview with O Globo, pledged unrestricted technology transfer including source codes for the Rafale. Guillaud went on to say the FAB may make any modifications to create a "Super Rafale". He refused to talk about the Rafale cost and pushed for a "strategic partnership" with Brazil.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Dassault still refuses to budge on price reduction for the Rafale F-X2 offer.

Admiral Edouard Guillaud a special envoy for Sarkozy during an interview with O Globo, pledged unrestricted technology transfer including source codes for the Rafale. Guillaud went on to say the FAB may make any modifications to create a "Super Rafale". He refused to talk about the Rafale cost and pushed for a "strategic partnership" with Brazil.
google translate:

Despite that mention of price, both he and Guillaud avoided mentioning specific figures on the cost of the Rafale - except the fact that it would be 4% more expensive than the F-18 Super Hornet, the American Boeing. This difference, they argued, would disappear over the 15-year contract to be signed with Brazil, because of currency fluctuations during that period.
I presume the above has either been mistranslated by Google, or that the journalist dropped a zero?
 

Scorpion82

New Member
I'm certain we'll see more details in the future. Weren't Super Hornets to cost some 80-90 mln $? I know about Boeings offer to produce additional aircraft for just 50 mln $, but that's not yet the case. The Rafale costs somewhat in the range of ~50 - 60 mln €.
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The actual F-X2 price and costs have not been made public due to confidentiality in the bid process. However, rough order of magnitude (ROM) price and cost figures have been circulating as follows.

The F-X2 finalists submitted their "Best and Final Offers" in mid-August and continue with price negtiations.

Dassault Rafale - Euro 50M
Boeing F/A-18E - USD 55M
Saab Gripen NG - USD 50M

Cost per flight hour:
Rafale: $16,000
F/A-18E: $10,000
Gripen: $4,500

Life cycle costs said to be on par with the flight hour costs.

This is where conclusions are drawn that the Rafale has 40% greater cost than the Super Hornet.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
It seems Lula has done it again:

Google Translate

If he really has "included the Rafale" in a formalized agreement before the evaluation process has been completed, could Saab and Boeing then sue Brazil for not following their own process?

I know that in Europe Saab sued Poland because Saab suspected that a deal was completed not according to the rules. But Poland is an EU member...

What are the rules for such processes internationally? Are there any rules?
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It seems Lula has done it again:

Google Translate

If he really has "included the Rafale" in a formalized agreement before the evaluation process has been completed, could Saab and Boeing then sue Brazil for not following their own process?

I know that in Europe Saab sued Poland because Saab suspected that a deal was completed not according to the rules. But Poland is an EU member...

What are the rules for such processes internationally? Are there any rules?
We're all waiting for the backlash as this is the same type of statement Lula made when Sarkozy was in Brazil for Independence Day activites. This seen as another political statement to be kind to the host country as Lula is in France. Note that Dassault is not celebrating this recent news.

So, yes, there would be legal concerns about the bid process.

The FAB has not submitted their final F-X2 recommendation.

The Brazilian National Security Council has final approval for the F-X2 winner which until now it has not.
 

zeven

New Member
The actual F-X2 price and costs have not been made public due to confidentiality in the bid process. However, rough order of magnitude (ROM) price and cost figures have been circulating as follows.

The F-X2 finalists submitted their "Best and Final Offers" in mid-August and continue with price negtiations.

Dassault Rafale - Euro 50M
Boeing F/A-18E - USD 55M
Saab Gripen NG - USD 50M

Cost per flight hour:
Rafale: $16,000
F/A-18E: $10,000
Gripen: $4,500

Life cycle costs said to be on par with the flight hour costs.

This is where conclusions are drawn that the Rafale has 40% greater cost than the Super Hornet.
I don't recognize those numbers regarding Gripen. Last time i checked it was 2.500-3000.
 
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