citizen578
New Member
The Financial Times is reporting that General Dynamics has won the FRES-SV (specialist vehicle). The official announcement was not due until the 26th of March, but apparently the MoD are scrambling to pre-empt a leak.
FRES Programme - British Army
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slightly surprised thought CV-90 would be preferred to the ASCOD based design well both seemed like quite good desgines.
Might as well see if the official announcement different
citizen578
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x2.
I've always preferred the BAE submission for several reasons, industrial (in terms of the longevity of overall armour production in the UK), economic (keeping British pounds in British pockets), and in capability terms. The CV90 (even if it is only the chasis, and a shortened and lowered verion of the MkIII at that) seems a far more mature, not to mention proven design than ASCOD2.
I should have stressed that GD winning is currently just a rumour (which I also heard through someone before it was in the FT), but I have a regrettable feeling it will prove accurate.
If so, it seems the British tax-payer, and the British arms industry has lost out.
Perhaps we should have gone the same protectionist route as the KC-X...
:
You never know could end up in political limbo like FRES UT. Could be incorrect but as part of the submission they had to be bulit in the UK its just a bit of a shame that it isn't under BAE.x2.
I've always preferred the BAE submission for several reasons, industrial (in terms of the longevity of overall armour production in the UK), economic (keeping British pounds in British pockets), and in capability terms. The CV90 (even if it is only the chasis, and a shortened and lowered verion of the MkIII at that) seems a far more mature, not to mention proven design than ASCOD2.
I should have stressed that GD winning is currently just a rumour (which I also heard through someone before it was in the FT), but I have a regrettable feeling it will prove accurate.
If so, it seems the British tax-payer, and the British arms industry has lost out.
Perhaps we should have gone the same protectionist route as the KC-X...
Unlikely, the SV is needed too desperately to be delayed. But i've heard Warrior is going to be delayed by a year. If GD do win BAE will be doubly annoyed.
And GD are promising UK assembly, but it still wont support UK jobs as well as the BAE solution would have.
I preferred CV90 as well. Forgive me if i'm wrong but has ASCOD seen any combat? At least CV90 is combat proven.
fraserdigby
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Doesn't it just mean UK jobs whichever company wins?
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citizen578
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Not this time, I don't think. It's the Army's No1 procurement priority (the Scout, that is), and is now so massively in the media spotlight that industry and government alike can't afford any further cock-ups.
The Utility requirement on the other hand... well that's just the next big saga-in-waiting! (again)
GD signed an MoU with the DSG last month, promising to create jobs at Donnington, and have a target of 80% UK construction and components. The irony is, that that 80% must surely come from existing BAE contracters (it's not as though we're overwhelmed with domestic armour manufacturers).Grim901 said:
General Dynamics UK - General Dynamics UK Limited expects to provide over 10,500 UK jobs if it wins FRES SV competition
I originally delayed posting this thread, as I assumed it was a classic journalist mistake of reading between the lines and assuming the the MoU meant GD had won.
Fraser, the concern is sustaing jobs, and sustaining a UK armour production capability over the long term. GDUK still has its masters overseas, and we'll still see a gigantic amount of tax-payers' money cross the atlantic. It's not that this is bad in emploment terms for the short term, but it's not the best, and nor does it represent the best in terms of the longevity I mentioned earlier. Do BAE have a monopoly? This is one area where they don't, this is a new vehicle, and there's nothing like it in either GD or BAE's shelves, and I struggle to think of any overseas vehicle which would closely suit the role.
A couple of points here, we talk about UK industry being transferred to overseas masters, well just look at BAE, it owns a large portion of the US's land systems manufactures, but you don't hear about the US barking on about overseas masters! Regardless of who wins proprietary knowledge will be transferred, UK manufacturing will be maintained and supporting supply chains built using local subcontractors.
The FRES SV contract has not been CONFIRMED yet, and BAE are returning to the table with a revised proposal, which will include a larger UK manufacturing share. Two reasons why GD supposedly came out on top - more UK jobs guaranteed and ASCOD has a greater potential for future amour enhancements because it has a higher maximum operating weight over CV90. The last thing the army wants is to buy a vehicle and find it unable to deal with future IED threats because it is restricted by weight (unable to host additional theatre specific armour packages) - we will end up with a situation akin to Viking, having to buy Warthog because the latter could be loaded up with a additional armour (unlike the former) without impeding its performance.
The UK's experience in A-Stan and Iraq has moved the gaol posts - reinforcing the need for protection and mobility (all terrain tracked, not wheeled vehicles), hence we have seen so many delays / changes with FRES.
Are you referring to the CTWS?
If so is there any recent news on that front?
I think the CTWS 40mm has a lot of potential. And would appreciate any recent news or info you might have.
cheers
rb
CTWS is mandated regardless of who wins, it will equip the new scout and eventually Warrior.
The update to Warrior may slip a year or two as they are not required in A-STAN, recent MARP purchases have removed the need. However CVRT vehicles are a brigade asset and much treasured for their work in supporting battle group operations (hence the need for FRES-SV now). CVRT's have supported infantry units and acted in thier traditional role providing the recce screen for the Danes Leopards. The current CVRT is too small and needs replacing ASAP.
FluffyThoughts
Member
This has been bugging me:
ASCOD2 - according to GDUK's web-site - will weigh 34 - 40 tonnes fully kitted-out. So what is the point of the A400M if it will only be able to lift a stripped-down vehicle (with the rest of the kit filling-out another EuroTurkey) ...? :idea2
ASCOD2 - according to GDUK's web-site - will weigh 34 - 40 tonnes fully kitted-out. So what is the point of the A400M if it will only be able to lift a stripped-down vehicle (with the rest of the kit filling-out another EuroTurkey) ...? :idea2
Protection is the name of the game these days, fitting FRES-SV in a A400 is a long expired pipe dream for the RAF, that particular caveat was blown away by IED attacks in A-Stan & Iraq. Less of an issue for the UK anyway as they will have seven C17's by the end of 2010, and I'm betting my bottom dollar that who ever wins the next election will order at least two more (three flights of three, plus one reserve/training) at the expense of A400 numbers.
True air portability is something used on very very limited basis on decent sized kit i.e not landys or BV's, being able to lift 20 odd FRES-SV was never really likely even before Iraq and A-Stan, as that was one of the major factors in killing FCS program.
In regards to the C-17 their was something ages ago which gave tail numbers for 8 UK C-17's and since we have 7 already their should be at least one more to be ordered.
Should be interesting to see if the FT has got it right on Friday
Lockheed-Martin will use the Lance turret as the host for the 40mm BAE/Nexter cannon designed for the ASCOD SV vehicle. Makes sense and avoids reinventing the wheel, link below:
Rheinmetall Defence - 10/09/2008: Rheinmetall's new Lance Modular Turret System on display at Defendory – The state of the art in systematic modularity
With BAE already progressing with testing on their turret I strongly suspect the MOD will award the Warrior upgrade to BAE. Simply because this will strengthen the UK manufacturing base in an election year, and not place all eggs in one suppliers basket. As long as the weapon system remains standard and bowman C1 systems are compatible then I seen no real dramas. Both units will have a 75% UK manufacturing base, so jobs in the North (BAE) and Wales (LM) will be secure.
Rheinmetall Defence - 10/09/2008: Rheinmetall's new Lance Modular Turret System on display at Defendory – The state of the art in systematic modularity
With BAE already progressing with testing on their turret I strongly suspect the MOD will award the Warrior upgrade to BAE. Simply because this will strengthen the UK manufacturing base in an election year, and not place all eggs in one suppliers basket. As long as the weapon system remains standard and bowman C1 systems are compatible then I seen no real dramas. Both units will have a 75% UK manufacturing base, so jobs in the North (BAE) and Wales (LM) will be secure.
t68
Well-Known Member
Looking at the spec’s on the new AFV for the Army, is there any specific reason for the weight of the vehicles coming in at 42t compared to a CV90 at 23t, more blast resistant?
Being so heavy what restrictions will it have on in its reconnaissance role is it a step backwards?
Will it replace the Warrior in the future to have one common type of AFV for the Army?
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ASCOD SV
ASCOD SV (also called the ASCOD 2 SV) is the ASCOD variant chosen for the British Army’s Specialist vehicle Programme, and will be built by General Dynamics UK. Currently, there are four variants planned for this programme.
• ASCOD SV - Scout Variant (This is the main variant of the programme.)
• ASCOD VCPC - Command Post Armored Vehicle Variant
• ASCOD VCOAV - Forward Reconnaissance Armored Vehicle
• ASCOD ARV - Armored Recovery Vehicle
The ASCOD SV is planned to include the following upgrades,
• The main weapon will be a 40mm Case Telescopic Weapon System (CT40 cannon)
• The armor will provide basic ballistic and mine protection, with upgrade add-on packages for improved protection when needed.
• The chassis will be upgraded, including an increased engine rated at 600 kW.
• The turret will be built by Lockheed Martin UK.
The vehicle is expected to weigh 42 tonnes.
Being so heavy what restrictions will it have on in its reconnaissance role is it a step backwards?
Will it replace the Warrior in the future to have one common type of AFV for the Army?
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ASCOD SV
ASCOD SV (also called the ASCOD 2 SV) is the ASCOD variant chosen for the British Army’s Specialist vehicle Programme, and will be built by General Dynamics UK. Currently, there are four variants planned for this programme.
• ASCOD SV - Scout Variant (This is the main variant of the programme.)
• ASCOD VCPC - Command Post Armored Vehicle Variant
• ASCOD VCOAV - Forward Reconnaissance Armored Vehicle
• ASCOD ARV - Armored Recovery Vehicle
The ASCOD SV is planned to include the following upgrades,
• The main weapon will be a 40mm Case Telescopic Weapon System (CT40 cannon)
• The armor will provide basic ballistic and mine protection, with upgrade add-on packages for improved protection when needed.
• The chassis will be upgraded, including an increased engine rated at 600 kW.
• The turret will be built by Lockheed Martin UK.
The vehicle is expected to weigh 42 tonnes.
One shouldn't forget that only the old basic CV9040 weighted 23 tons.
The newest CV90 in service is the CV9035 Mk.III which IIRC weights roughly 35 tons with all the add-on armor included.
So the difference isn't all that big with the ASCOD just offering better growth potential.
The newest CV90 in service is the CV9035 Mk.III which IIRC weights roughly 35 tons with all the add-on armor included.
So the difference isn't all that big with the ASCOD just offering better growth potential.
ASCOD Scout project moving forward, which suprises me, I was expecting a freeze until after SDR. Then again the CVRT needs replacing ASAP.
If anything we might see Warrior turret upgrades cancelled. By the time ASCOD SV Scout finally enters service, Warrior numbers will most likely have been reduced as the military moves towards a lighter deployable tracked vehicle approach. Why not then simply keep the ASCOD line open and replace the current UK AFV fleet with the orginal ASCOD AFV fitted with the new 40mm cannon?
According to GD: ASCOD SV offers tonnes of value to the UK Defence Industrial Base. Its Intellectual Property will be based in the UK, part of the sovereign capability available to the British Government. By value, 80% of the vehicle manufacture will be completed in the UK, with 70% of the supply chain companies UK-based. Overall, ASCOD SV will create or safeguard more than 10,500 jobs in the UK.. So let's roll it over and continue production standardising the whole UK AFV fleet around a single platform (C&C, mortar carrier, AT etc.).
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | MOD signs contract for new armoured vehicle