Yes and PIRATE is an IRST system, technology that has existed a long time.
Tell you what. If you think targetting with an IRST is a valid defence against enemy aircraft by itself, go outside your house and have a look around through a drinking straw. What's your FOV like then? Because that is what attempting to scan an entire airspace with an IRST is like from all reports.
Fact is, IRST needs to be cued by a radar sensor because it is ill-suited to volume searches of airspace. It is also massively range limited compared to a radar and maximum detection ranges are in the 40k range or so. Quite a bit shorter than modern A2A radar systems...
It can be cued by ESM rather than radar...
But your right even with advanced IRST systems that are set to have much larger detection ranges, they pale in comparison to advanced AESA's like the APG 77 in terms of detection, track and therefore engagement range.
And ESM cued IRST and BVR IR missile shots can be countered by networking anyway. The launch platform can fire off somenone elses radar while staying emissions cold. The ESM cant cue anything if there are no emittions to detect.
No. The F-22 in particular is designed with "all aspect stealth" of a magnitude greater than any previous "stealth" aircraft. The F-35 likewise is stated to have a lower RCS than either F-117 or B-2 as well and only a fraction larger than the F-22.
But the RCS reduction is greater in the frontal aspect. If you pointed your radar at the "keel" of an F22 the detection range would likely be much higher than at a head on aspect. Same thing goes for directly behind the aircraft because you get a return out of the engine. However this doesnt mean that unless an F22 pointing at your radar its stealth would be useless, or even compromised in a major way. The only time I see this as being a major problem is if the radar hit a surface at a 90 degree angle. I remember a saying i heard once, "stealth is 20% technology and 80% tactics", although that ratio might have changed some with the implemetation of new platofrms. i remember reading an interview with the Co of the 1st fighter wing USAF about the F22. he stated that unless he did something stupid, he could detect, enguage and kill all comers in BVR combat without being detected. But he did stress not doing something stupid...
As far as the F22 having afar lower RCS than any previous aircraft i'm slightly scheptical. It is stated to have a smaller RCS than the F117 with an order of magnitude lower time per flight hour for stealth maintinance. But i would assume that it was in the ballpark of a B2, probably a tad less. Remember the whole design practicaly of the B2 was based arround taking a payload and makeing it as stealthy as possible. The designers didnt have to compromise on any RCS reduction measures in order to make high classic performance goals. The F35 is even more "comprimised" (i dont know what other word to say allthough i know people will take that the wrong way) because it is designed to be both affordable and have a much smaller basing footprint and stealth maintinance requirements than the F22 which has much smaller requirements than the F117 (which is a big achievement, stealth for the masses if you will). The only reason i could see the F22 or F35 having a smaller RCS than a B2 is because the B2 is 4~5 times larger than either platform, shows how impressive that platform really is, and with a $800M+ price tag you can see why.
These aircraft are not "treated" with RAM coatings. They are designed and shaped from day 1 to observe and scatter incoming radar system. It is not a case where a "standard" aircraft design has been given RCS reduction measures.
Your right there is alot more to all aspect LO than what they're painted with, thats about as far as the russians have got with working stealth i suspect, "stealth in a bottle". :lol3
These aircraft don't have "cloaking shields" and are not invisible. They are designed to be impossible to target except when they are so close to a threat that they can employ their own weapons.
Right, its just part of information dominance. LO doesnt make you invincible and it doesnt win the war for you. What it does do is give you a serious edge, and with the apropriate tactics that edge can be exploited to devistating effect.
Detection is irrelevent if you can't target the aircraft.
Coupled with more advanced IR systems on missles and platforms the "bad guys" will have a better chance of targeting and killing stealth aircraft than with current tech. But then again if there is a significant increase in the threat of such systems you will see serious investment in IR supression, especially on the F35.
Wow. At 55,000 plus feet too... Don't forget about the curvature of the Earth my friend.
Fact is the tiny little radar in a missile system is going to be have to be extremely close to these aircraft to be able to target them.
That whole IADS theory sounds a bit too complicated to me. Their not just going to be trying to kill a single F22, they would be dealing with the a whole USAF package, several of them. Even
IF (and i am very scheptical of this) the S400's radar can detect and track and sucsessfully engage an F22 at 100+km i wonder how well it could stand up in a heavy ECM environment, not to mention a serious USAF DEAD campaign. if the S400's radar is so pecial that it can to something no other radar on the planet (even much more powerfull ones) can do well, they'll be the first things that are targeted. But i'll get to that in a minet.
Clever aren't you. Are you aware that the F-22 doesn't HAVE a data-link capable of transmitting?
Yeah, the F22 doesnt need to transmit, it just needs to recieve track data from an offboard sensor and it can launch emmitions cold, maybe just the very quiet detelink with the missile.
XaNDeR said:
Ever heard of S-400 ? Or new Europe pirate optical sensor?
F-22 small RCS that is often mention validates only when measured against plaine that is aproching from same height and in line. Every other aspect ( angle /height) changes (increases) its RCS. Further its RAM coatings is designd to absorb only narow spectrum of frequencies not all. It has EM leckage even if he turns off the radar etc. Similar story goes with B-2.
The trick is in the sensor fusing. Combinig all pasive + active sensors and sharing data over integrated structure ensures no Stealth will pass undetected.
AWACS can illuminate the target and send information to nearby Anti air defence and guide missiles.
For example S-400 radar can track tragets similar to a little coin from 180 kms.
The tactics may also include launching Multiple Missile..one goes faster and flies higher with active Radar seeker on-line..while Others remains TVM one target picked..the "lead" missile will "illuminate" the target and feed it to Command post which later order the "Subordinate" missiles to Strike
oh and if F-22's are guided by AWACS..the F-22 may deactivate its AESA Radar to increase Stealth Factor but may emit Datalink (usually X Band) which can be picked by Kolchuga ESM
I heard Kolchuga ESM is a Part of S-400 system
AFAIK the F35 is the only LO platform to have its stealth optimised arround a sertain set of frequencies, X band in particular. It is still stealthy in lower wavelengths, just not as stealthy as other "all aspect" LO platforms like the F22. The F22 and B2 on other hand are designed to be equaly hard to detect at L band X band and so on. Only with realy low frequency radars in the HF range would its LO start to deteriorate, this is the why JORN can detect LO platforms from time to time. The problem with such radars is that the data is not precise enough for missle shots on aircraft.
As far as EM leakage on a B2, forget it. They are totaly EM cold when they go to battle. Whatever they do emit you would need a radio telescope to detect. If an F22 or F35 is going in EM cold the only transmitions you could possibly detect are voice comms and maybe a datalink transmition if for some reason the forward platform had something to transmit. Thats hardly going to be the undoing of the platform. Both the datalink and voice comms are LPI and very low power.
Sensor fusing may achieve better results but you have fuse information from several different systems and use it in a meaningfull way. Thats not as easy as it sounds. Even if you have a whole integrated network with several passive and active systmes you may be able to detect a stealth aircraft thats a long way from a working system that can use several different systems in different locations to track an LO platform and use another weapons system to engage it. Such a system is complicated, expensive, unweildy and very vulnerable to heavy ECM and SEAD/DEAD work. Unless you have very exelent ECCM, ESM based systems will be useless in heavy ECM environments. Anyway if your relying on systems like ground based IR and ESM, the platform would have to basically fly over the target system. Thats kind of useless considering the standoff missle capability of the USAF, JASSM comes to mind, so does JSOW-ER.
Now for the S400. The claims that it can somehow detect LO platforms at 150km+ ranges are pretty extraordinary. The S400 system is an evoloution of the S300 family, it is essentially an improved S300 PMU. The claims that it can do something no other radar on the planet can do, which is detect a real LO platform 100NM is an extraordinary one, especially due to the fact that this is something that the S300 could not even come close to doing. Remember extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. IIRC the 64N6E Big Bird radar is essentially the same in the S300 and S400, it is just more refined with a better software. So i'm wondering how exactly the S400's radar can achieve a feat that large and very sophistocated radars like SPY 1D can not and and S300 could not????? I have no plroblem beleiving that the system is as capable, maybe even slighly more capable than PAC3, but claiming it can do something nothing else can do, especially given its size (truck mounted) because the russians claim it can is another story.
Even if the Big Bird (i think thats what they call it) can detect it, there is the queston of whether it can engage it with any real prospect of sucsess. Detection doesent mean you can launch a weapon and shoot down what your aiming at. Its hardly the "end of stealth" is it.....
