F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

Brandon

New Member
Another F-22 export article...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071200242.html

First off, I think the title of the article is very misleading. The U.S. isn't "tempting" Japan at all. If anything, Japan is tempting the U.S. to allow the Raptor to be exported. Second, the U.S. already stated last week it would be offering the F-35 and not the F-22 to Japan. Why do people keep insisting that the government will allow it to be exported, when it has stated multiple times no exports? It was designed for the U.S., and only the U.S., to maintain air superiority. The Raptor wasn't made with foreign sales in mind. I personally believe it shouldn't be exported and will not be exported. What is your opinion on whether the F-22 will be exported and if you think it should be?
 

f-22fan12

New Member
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071200242.html

First off, I think the title of the article is very misleading. The U.S. isn't "tempting" Japan at all. If anything, Japan is tempting the U.S. to allow the Raptor to be exported. Second, the U.S. already stated last week it would be offering the F-35 and not the F-22 to Japan. Why do people keep insisting that the government will allow it to be exported, when it has stated multiple times no exports? It was designed for the U.S., and only the U.S., to maintain air superiority. The Raptor wasn't made with foreign sales in mind. I personally believe it shouldn't be exported and will not be exported. What is your opinion on whether the F-22 will be exported and if you think it should be?
If you ask me the only countries who should be allowed to have the F-22 are Japan and MAYBE Australia. Japan is a very trusted ally and has never given away American weapons technology. They are a trustworthy country. They also have the $$$ to buy F-22s. Australia is also a trustworthy country and a close ally of the U.S. They're only drawback is they already ordered Super Hornets and F-35s. They also wouldn't have enough $$$. If Japan bought lets say 50 F-22s it would keep the production line busy even the the USAF made massive cuts in their F-22 orders. If it was exported to Japan, the only thing they would have to change would be the high-tech radar. Everything else could be exported. In the export agreement, Japan would have to agree not to sell or give parts/systems of the F-22 to other countries. They probobly won't. Most countries in that region dislike Japan and giving F-22 tech. away would only hurt them.

The F-22 should not be exported to even Japan for at least another 5 years. This would give the U.S. time to remove the radar and for Japan to get ready for the plane. It would also keep the USAF the sole operator for an extra five years. :)
The U.S. is not tempting Japan, but they sure are showing off the F-22. (Deployment to Kadena AFB) Japan should choose either the F-22 or Eurofighter for its replacement. The F-35 is built mainly for ground attack. Japan's pacifist constitution prevents Japan from using force to resolve matters. Japan can only DEFEND itself which means it Doesn't need ground attack designed F-35s.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If you ask me the only countries who should be allowed to have the F-22 are Japan and MAYBE Australia. Japan is a very trusted ally and has never given away American weapons technology. They are a trustworthy country. They also have the $$$ to buy F-22s. Australia is also a trustworthy country and a close ally of the U.S. They're only drawback is they already ordered Super Hornets and F-35s. They also wouldn't have enough $$$. If Japan bought lets say 50 F-22s it would keep the production line busy even the the USAF made massive cuts in their F-22 orders. If it was exported to Japan, the only thing they would have to change would be the high-tech radar. Everything else could be exported. In the export agreement, Japan would have to agree not to sell or give parts/systems of the F-22 to other countries. They probobly won't. Most countries in that region dislike Japan and giving F-22 tech. away would only hurt them.
err, australia can't afford them? have you looked at the defence budget for australia for the immediate future? its about $46bn

as for trust, I think you may well be oblivious about the current state of affairs between the US and Australia. Aust and the UK have higher access to weapons and military technology than any of the other US allies. That was a directive issued by your Executive late last year.

My view is that we don't need them - its not an issue that we can't afford them, but that they are not relevant to our force balance.

I'm also of the view that the US shouldn't sell them to anyone else for a few years - which strangely enough, is also the view of the Executive.

This is a dead issue and has been debated on numerous other posts.

I'm closing it off as we end up going around in circles.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
U.S. PACOM Chief Opposes Selling F-22 to Japan

So much for APA's predictions .....


By JOHN T. BENNETT (Defense News article)


The top U.S. military official in the Pacific region is opposed to the notion of selling the Pentagon’s prized F-22A Raptor to Japan, America’s closest ally in the area.

A new U.S. “capabilities assessment group” -— composed of Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, Office of the Secretary of Defense and industry officials -— has launched a comprehensive review of Japan’s fighter requirements. That group will deliver a formal recommendation to Defense Secretary Robert Gates and eventually President George W. Bush on which American-made war plane Washington should pitch to Tokyo.

Adm. Timothy Keating, commander, U.S. Pacific Command, said he has passed his recommendation that the Raptor not be sold to Japan to that study team. His comments came during a July 24 briefing at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

As the Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) continues seeking a replacement for its aging fighter fleet, Tokyo over the past several years has expressed a keen interest in the F-22A, which is loaded with top secret technologies.

*One key hurdle to a potential sale of F-22As to Japan is the “Obey amendment,” a provision tacked onto the 1998 Defense Appropriations Act by Rep. David Obey, D-Wis. It prohibits F-22A exports to any nation. Last year, conferees working on a final defense spending bill turned back a House-approved move to nix the provision.*

The Japan Air Self-Defense Force has four kinds of fighters: F-15s, F-2s, F-1s, and F-4s, the latter introduced in 1973 and slated for retirement in the next decade. *Japanese officials have said they at least want to purchase a “fourth-and-a-half generation jet,” and ideally, a “fifth-generation” plane. That would exclude even the most-enhanced U.S.-made F-16s and F-15s, but would leave on the Japanese list upgraded F/A-18s, F-35 Joint Strike Fighters and the Raptor.*

Keating sees positive changes in the Pacific realm today compared with the mid-1980s, when he was a young officer there. He also sees Beijing as a potential military peer that PACOM should monitor, but not a threat it should lose sleep over.

“We’re watching them and we’re interested” in their secretive activities, Keating said of China. “And they’re watching us — it makes sense [for both nations to do so].”

But just how closely PACOM, other American agencies and U.S. allies can monitor Chinese military moves appears limited. The Pentagon’s May report on China, delivered annually to Congress, pans Beijing for making many moves behind a thick veil of secrecy.

U.S. military and intelligence agencies believe China is pushing ahead many air, ground and naval weapons, including updating long-range ballistic missiles, testing new nuclear-powered submarines, developing multirole Su-27SMK/Flanker (F-11A) fighter with partner Russia, and deploying freshly produced tanks and amphibious vehicles, according to the Pentagon report.

Keating said PACOM officials are “concerned about” Chinese moves and motives, but stressed that “it’s not something we worry about.”

During recent meetings with Chinese officials, Keating said the two sides agreed to a continuation of Washington’s “somewhat ambiguous policy” that calls for America to defend Taiwan in response to a Chinese attack on the island. Those same officials, however, were “less eager” to discuss Beijing’s January anti-satellite test that saw China destroy one of its own aging weather orbiters, he said.

Chinese officials, when pressed about the ASAT test by Keating and his delegation, called it a “scientific experiment, Keating told reporters. American officials responded, he said, by stressing Washington does not feel such a test is consistent with China’s rhetoric of a “peaceful rise.”
Keating also said Chinese officials confirmed a claim made in the May Pentagon report about Beijing’s desire to build a new aircraft carrier.

Chinese officials, he said, made clear they see an “aircraft carrier moving into a foreign port” as the most muscular sign that a nation is a true global power. American officials responded to their counterparts’ carrier desires, Keating said, by stressing the difficulty of such a complex shipbuilding project.

Essentially, the Americans told them, “Knock yourselves out.” Some Chinese naval officials have been aboard U.S. ships, including the aircraft carrier Harry S. Truman, he said. “So they know, [that is] the price of admission,” he said of the many complex systems and engineering challenges that go into building such a massive ship.

Keating’s optimism also extended into the future, with the PACOM chief telling the CSIS audience that if American-Chinese relations improve over the next 15 years, he could see China one day being part of the U.S. Navy’s envisioned “1,000-ship Navy,” which would be composed of American and other coalition vessels.

The four-star said he is “not wildly optimistic … but cautiously optimistic” that American forces could one day work with “more complexity and more frequency” with the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), especially for things like joint exercises and humanitarian relief efforts.

“Overall, the pendulum has swung dramatically … things are better,” said Keating. In every nation he has visited since taking over in Hawaii earlier this year, including China, “peace and stability are the watchwords,” he added.

Despite the list of potentially contentious issues facing the region — China’s military build-up and views on Taiwan, possible Japanese militarization, North Korea’s nuclear program and potential Japanese-South Korean tensions — nothing keeps the PACOM chief “up at night,” said Keating, an admitted “optimist by nature.”

The PACOM commander is in Washington for high-level talks between Gates and his top brass from around the world. Keating said the senior officials will spend time discussing the ongoing war in Iraq, as well other items, such as “information sharing with our partners,” space issues and other items.

While the conflict in Iraq is taking up a considerable amount of Gates’ time, Keating said he does not feel his boss is too preoccupied with the Middle East that developments in the Pacific and elsewhere are being ignored. “Do I feel like my bosses are ignoring me?” Keating said in response to a question from the audience, followed by a sternly delivered response: “No.”
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
So much for APA's predictions .....


Hey Occum, if you still visit, probably time to get that crystal ball of yours, overhauled. Seems RAAF's is working a bit better...


U.S. bill puts F-22 Raptor out of reach

07/27/2007

THE ASAHI SHIMBUN

Japan's plan to replace its aging squadron of fighter jets with state-of-the-art F-22 Raptors was dealt a serious blow by the passage of a defense appropriations bill in Washington.

The U.S. House Appropriations Committee on Wednesday passed the defense appropriations bill for fiscal 2008 with a provision banning F-22 sales to any foreign nation.

A Defense Ministry official in Tokyo indicated the bill would likely mean Japan must revise its schedule for buying the F-22 or set its sights on another fighter jet to replace the Air Self-Defense Force's F-4 jets.

"We were fully prepared for the latest decision by the United States," a Defense Ministry official said. "If the United States had issued a message now by selling (the F-22) to Japan, it would have been difficult for the United States to explain that decision to China and South Korea."

Many military experts consider the F-22 the most capable fighter jet available today. China and South Korea have raised concerns about why Japan would need such a fighter when Tokyo maintains that it will stick to an exclusively defensive posture.

The Defense Ministry official also said: "Japan has not decided on purchasing the F-22, and at present it would be difficult to reach an agreement on the price. A realistic option would be to delay the timing of the selection (of the next-generation fighter jet)."

Among Japan's options are extending the shelf life of the F-4 while delaying the acquisition of the F-22 or buying an alternative fighter jet.

In addition to the F-22, the Defense Ministry has been considering: the F-15FX and F/A-18, both manufactured in the United States; the F-35, made jointly by the United States, Britain and others; and the Eurofighter, produced by a consortium of four European nations.

In Washington, John Murtha, chairman of the defense subcommittee within the Appropriations Committee, told reporters that members of Congress were unwilling at present to sell the F-22 to foreign nations because of the advanced nature of its technology.

While the appropriations bill still needs to win passage through the entire House as well as undergo debate in the Senate, Congressional sources said it was highly unlikely that the ban on exporting the F-22 would be removed.

Japanese government officials had been asking their U.S. counterparts for information on the F-22 so they could include the Raptor among candidate jets to replace the F-4.

Under the Defense Ministry's Midterm Defense Program for fiscal 2005 to 2009, seven fighter jets will be purchased to replace the F-4s.

In order to acquire those jets under the program, a decision on which fighter jet to buy must be made by the summer of 2008 at the latest. The ASDF introduced the F-4s in 1973. (IHT/Asahi: July 27,2007)
 

sidewinder2006

New Member
Although I am not in in a mood to under estimate Raptor..but it just may be like that US wants to prsent raptor as an invincible war machine..but in reality it just might be another bluff ballon.......(I am not saying it actually is,it just might be...after all you gotta justify that insane price tag )

Claims can only be justified when they are challenged but US doesnt want that at least for now...

Let us all wait another 10 years...let some eastern block...say russian,chinese or indian 5th gen ac surface...only then these claims can be checked...
 

sidewinder2006

New Member
thats the name of the game.. !!!!
again US will advertise that as invincible and again we have to wait for something better from the opposite side to test that...

this will continue for ever............
 

nero

New Member
thats the name of the game.. !!!!
again US will advertise that as invincible and again we have to wait for something better from the opposite side to test that...

this will continue for ever............
.
well put !!

but F-22 still rules !! even after it's first "kill" by the F-16s

nothing will challenge the F-22 in the coming decades !!

as for russia their only hope is the PAK-FA project, bcoz the MFI project 1.44 is nearly dead.

.
 

Scott

Photographer/Contributor
Verified Defense Pro
As gf0012-aust & so many of the experts have said many times and in many ways - it's not a simple contest that's always won by the best machine. ;)
 

sidewinder2006

New Member
Actually the fact is F-22 is not the ultimate WVR fighter,better WVR fighter currently exists and as far as fighting falcon is concerened its a very good ac..so I am not surprised that in a wvr fight f-22 was shot doown by a faighting falcon. But the whole logic behind the development of the raptor is to stay away from wvr altogether..its meant for BVR...its meant for knocking out enemy air and ground assets from long distance...and currently raptor has no competition in that arena...

I am really doubtful about the fate of PAK-FA... the info currently available in internet currently suggest it in the same legue as JSF , not raptor..

India and Russia can graduate to the stealth arena with PAK-FA but I think to counter F22 something more radical is needed..
 

sidewinder2006

New Member
.
well put !!

but F-22 still rules !! even after it's first "kill" by the F-16s

nothing will challenge the F-22 in the coming decades !!

as for russia their only hope is the PAK-FA project, bcoz the MFI project 1.44 is nearly dead.

.
BTW Nero, I read somewhere a long time ago that a raptor was shot down in an exercise by a Super Hornet..
So How can F-16 become the first Raptor killer >>>???
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
BTW Nero, I read somewhere a long time ago that a raptor was shot down in an exercise by a Super Hornet..
So How can F-16 become the first Raptor killer >>>???
Both F-22 kills are dubious to say the least.

In both cases the fighters were performing "red air" roles and had already been "killed" by Raptors.

They were "re-activated" to continue taking part in the exercise on the Red Air side and have achieved kills only once the Raptors have passed them on.

Neither kill is representative of real world scenario's. No aircraft is going to "re-activate" once a Slammer hits it...
 

Scorpion82

New Member
Both F-22 kills are dubious to say the least.

In both cases the fighters were performing "red air" roles and had already been "killed" by Raptors.

They were "re-activated" to continue taking part in the exercise on the Red Air side and have achieved kills only once the Raptors have passed them on.

Neither kill is representative of real world scenario's. No aircraft is going to "re-activate" once a Slammer hits it...
And not every slammer being launched hit its target:rolleyes:
Honestly independent of how these "kills" occured, the Raptor isn't unbeatable its just harder to beat than anybody else for the moment. ;)
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
And not every slammer being launched hit its target:rolleyes:
Honestly independent of how these "kills" occured, the Raptor isn't unbeatable its just harder to beat than anybody else for the moment. ;)
Never said they did, however the Raptor to the best of my knowledge has not yet been beaten in "fair" circumstances, only by aircraft that have been reactivated on airex's after all ready being "killed".
 

Scorpion82

New Member
Never said they did, however the Raptor to the best of my knowledge has not yet been beaten in "fair" circumstances, only by aircraft that have been reactivated on airex's after all ready being "killed".
And Redair is often very limited in using tactics and even the full potantial of their jets, as their main task is to simulate potential threat aircraft and tactics. These 241:1 kill ratio sounds nice, but you have to see the circumstances as well. No doubt the Raptor is the absolute king in BVR and beats most other fighters WVR as well, but it would be interesting to see some sort of fair DACT. Simulated shoot downs of F-15 or F-16 not even in their latest versions isn't such a big deal at all if you ask me.
 

jaffo4011

New Member
Never said they did, however the Raptor to the best of my knowledge has not yet been beaten in "fair" circumstances, only by aircraft that have been reactivated on airex's after all ready being "killed".
aussie,i take you are excluding the typhoon kills which were,as far as i am aware,straight forward kills of the f22 and not after being already taken out.this occurred during the recent deployment in the us by the typhoon conversion unit of the raf...:p:
 

sidewinder2006

New Member
aussie,i take you are excluding the typhoon kills which were,as far as i am aware,straight forward kills of the f22 and not after being already taken out.this occurred during the recent deployment in the us by the typhoon conversion unit of the raf...:p:
Whoaaa.... Thats a news to me !!!! If Raptor starts getting knocked out by Typhoons..then it has a very gloomy future..
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Whoaaa.... Thats a news to me !!!! If Raptor starts getting knocked out by Typhoons..then it has a very gloomy future..
It has a dubious future because a typhoon got a kill or two in an exercise???? In reality a typhoon equiped force would be decimated by a force equiped with either F22's or F35's, 5th gen capabilities are hard to beat, by 4th/4.5th gen platforms. And just because a Typhoon got a kill in a WVR engagement doesn't somehow show a glaring weakness in the F22's capabilities, it doesn't reveal anything about a real combat scenario IMO. The cold hard reality is that unless the Raptor pilot did something stupid, it will be able to detect track and engage a Typhoon/Su30/SH/whatever without ever being detected, not to mention the effect of an electronic attack would have on the target as the AMRAAM's rain down. If it is ever detected it holds a huge advantage in raw performance over any other platform. the Typhoon may have a lower wing loading, but you don't have to get on someones tail to kill them any more. Trying to hit an VLO platform moving about at Mach 1.5+ for sustained periods and can maneuver effectively at those speeds is going to be pretty damn tough, a lot harder than hitting a conventional platform with a low wing loading. And we don't even know the circumstances, i'm pretty sure it was a WVR kill (most, if not all, of the F22's "losses" have been WVR). So i wouldn't be loosing any sleep over it.
 
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