F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

[Dr Phobus]

Hello,

I have not heard that JSF weapon bays are large enough to carry 6 AMRAAM's. I Thought 2-4 only, can you confirm this.

So the USAF are able to purchase 4 more than ordinally planned (wow). Still, I can not conceve that this is it for the (now named) F-22, they will buy more, at least they should. Or maybe it's cost is just making it too expsensive: consider Sea Wolf, even Virginia SSN's are just too exspensive for the USN to build in volume, same problem with the DDX (2.5 billion per-copy) 1-2 models are projected, Or the B-2 spirt bomber is just too expsensive. The JSF does represent a significant effort to control costs (both developmental and production) and yet have a high end warplane.

 

[Crusader2000]

Hello,

I have not heard that JSF weapon bays are large enough to carry 6 AMRAAM's. I Thought 2-4 only, can you confirm this.

So the USAF are able to purchase 4 more than ordinally planned (wow). Still, I can not conceve that this is it for the (now named) F-22, they will buy more, at least they should. Or maybe it's cost is just making it too expsensive: consider Sea Wolf, even Virginia SSN's are just too exspensive for the USN to build in volume, same problem with the DDX (2.5 billion per-copy) 1-2 models are projected, Or the B-2 spirt bomber is just too expsensive. The JSF does represent a significant effort to control costs (both developmental and production) and yet have a high end warplane.

Personally, I think the USAF is trying to drag out production as long as it can with the F-22 Raptor. Then maybe the US Economy will improve or it will win a small export order. Which, may allow it to order a few more............

 

[LancerMc]

Like I said there have been reports Japan has shown interest in either buying though mostly likely primarly producing their own F-22's. If this happened, which it won't for another few years at least, I bet the USAF will be able to buy more then 3 extra Raptors like their doing now.

 

[Crusader2000]

Like I said there have been reports Japan has shown interest in either buying though mostly likely primarly producing their own F-22's. If this happened, which it won't for another few years at least, I bet the USAF will be able to buy more then 3 extra Raptors like their doing now.

I really doubt the US would grant license production outside the US. Yet, who knows in another several years. I've always thought a joint buy from say the USAF, RAAF, and JASDF. Would be a good idea.......... Japan and Australia could place a order at the same time. Which, inturn would drop unit price and the USAF could place a second order. Now you would have a large order stretched over many years. Really, a Win-Win for all parties.:smash


FLY NAVY

 

[Crusader2000]

Hello

USAF has/had about 700-800 F-15 A-C's,. plus the strike eagle (E) varients. I agree more Raptor's need to be built, and how, well, cut the number's of JSF. The airforce have stated they do not need 1700 plus being built for them, of course are they saying this hoping money;s well be tranferred to more Raptors rather than the present JSF numbers, who knows? Also, in the world of PGM's SBD, JDAM etc are so many warplanes needed ? Especially the USAF that have an abundence of PGM's ?

However, we (US govenment) should listen them (the USAF) but cutting the JSF numbers may well mean increasing the JSF's unit cost and that is something politically/industrally that is very sensitive. This for me is the issue, no more Raptors because JSF number are required to ensure low unit cost and thus export success. This issue is also confounded by the plain fact the american's are no willing to put even more money into defence spending.


:fly

I would respectfully disagree with any cuts in JSF Production. This will only increase the unit cost and cut numbers. As it stands right now we will never see a one for one replacement of F-16's, F/A-18's, AV-8's and A-10's. Which, is also true about the F-22 Raptor. Yet, even if we do increase our order for Raptors. It surely won't be on a large scale. The F-22 will be used for Air Defense Mainly and we won't require real large numbers for that role alone. Yet, the JSF will be the work horse and will be used for several roles........So, in my view find other ways to increase our F-22 buy. Yet, not at the price of the JSF. In the end I believe the mix will work out...........IMO:gun



FLY NAVY

 

[Aussie Digger]

The Phoenix was fazed out because it rocket motor had extended past their useful self life. The realibity of the missile was now is question and they had to retire the missile from service.

The AMRAAM is not being phased out but the AIM-7 is. I wouldn't doubt either that early A models of AMRAAM's might be phased out for new versions that have better seekers and protection against ECM.

I know that LM has developed stealthy missile platforms, but the missiles themselves can give away detection information. As stated above the JSF will primarly be a bomb truck, so the likely hood a JSF caring 6 AAM is unlikey in combat.

True with more effective communications, radar, and ECM the JSF will be a difficult target to hit. With the most advance AESA radar, it will have a great advantage in the air. My concern is the missile themselves. In an article a few years ago, in Air Forces Monthly, a pilot for the Yugoslavian AF reported his experience of being shoot down over the country during the Kosovo crisis. He stated a large number of AMRAAM's missed his aircraft before one finally detonated close enough to shoot him down. I don't doubt the JSF will be a great fighter, but AAM realibity is always a question. The USAF in Vietnam is prime example of this problem. If the JSF will only be able to carry 2 AAM in combat in most situations it was designed for, will it have enough to defend itself.

One might say these missiles are realiable, but what if their deployed in an evironment full of Allied aircraft, enemy aircraft, and ECM. Their realibity can then come into question.

And yet look how many Yugoslav aircrat were shot down by NATO aircraft... If "Western" missiles are that inaccurate, imagine what Russian/Chinese ones must be like...

The 6 missile loadout for the JSF is based on the known internal pylons for the F-35. Each F-35 will have a rail for an A2A missile (currently planned for integration are: AIM-9X, AIM-132 ASRAAM and AIM-120C AMRAAM) mounted on each bomb bay door and 1 internal pylon per bomb bay.

The 6x missile loadout was based on current use of "dual rail" LAU launchers on most Western fighter aircraft. Recent load fitouts (as shown at Northrop Grumman's website) have demonstrated the dual rail launcher and missiles will fit internally, giving a potential loadout if used in a full A2A role of 2x AMRAAM's and 1x ASRAAM/AIM-9x per bomb bay...

 

[Crusader2000]

And yet look how many Yugoslav aircrat were shot down by NATO aircraft... If "Western" missiles are that inaccurate, imagine what Russian/Chinese ones must be like...

The 6 missile loadout for the JSF is based on the known internal pylons for the F-35. Each F-35 will have a rail for an A2A missile (currently planned for integration are: AIM-9X, AIM-132 ASRAAM and AIM-120C AMRAAM) mounted on each bomb bay door and 1 internal pylon per bomb bay.

The 6x missile loadout was based on current use of "dual rail" LAU launchers on most Western fighter aircraft. Recent load fitouts (as shown at Northrop Grumman's website) have demonstrated the dual rail launcher and missiles will fit internally, giving a potential loadout if used in a full A2A role of 2x AMRAAM's and 1x ASRAAM/AIM-9x per bomb bay...

The only diagrams I have seen of a JSF bomb bay. Shows 1-AMRAAM and 1-2,000lbs JDAM. That is for each bay of course. That said, you would think that 2 AIM-120 AMRAAM's would fit in the place on one 2,000 bomb? So, a JSF could easily carry 6-AMRAAM's in its weapons bay. Also, for very little decrease in its RCS. A JSF could add 2-Sidewinders on it wingtips. (F-35A) Thereby giving the JSF 8-Missiles in the Air-to-Air Role. Which, I mite add is the standard fit for the Air Superiority F-15 Eagle.:gun


FLY NAVY

 

[Aussie Digger]

The only diagrams I have seen of a JSF bomb bay. Shows 1-AMRAAM and 1-2,000lbs JDAM. That is for each bay of course. That said, you would think that 2 AIM-120 AMRAAM's would fit in the place on one 2,000 bomb? So, a JSF could easily carry 6-AMRAAM's in its weapons bay. Also, for very little decrease in its RCS. A JSF could add 2-Sidewinders on it wingtips. (F-35A) Thereby giving the JSF 8-Missiles in the Air-to-Air Role. Which, I mite add is the standard fit for the Air Superiority F-15 Eagle.:gun


FLY NAVY

JSF's (F-35A/C models at least) internal bomb bays are large enough for 2000lbs class weapons. In relation to basic size, a dual rail A2A missile launcher and 2x missiles should fit in bays of this size, AMRAAM missiles being a fair bit smaller than most 2000lbs class weapons systems.

 

[Crusader2000]

JSF's (F-35A/C models at least) internal bomb bays are large enough for 2000lbs class weapons. In relation to basic size, a dual rail A2A missile launcher and 2x missiles should fit in bays of this size, AMRAAM missiles being a fair bit smaller than most 2000lbs class weapons systems.

Well, that combined with earlier quotes "stating that the JSF could carry 6-AMRAAM's internally". Leads me to believe that is correct or at least until I hear otherwise. So, a JSF should be able to fly into a hostile war zone very stealthy with a respectable warload.............

 

[LancerMc]

Here's some info to help solve the amount of armament the JSF can carry.

A pic of a possible load out from JSF.mil

I have also attached a pdf file from LM with the spec for all three models
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=15965&rsbci=11173&fti=0&ti=0&sc=400

It clearly states 2 missiles internally with 2 ground muntions
plus additional store on out pylons

 

[Crusader2000]

I believe Pratty & Whitney tested a stealthly all axis vectoring nozzle on the F-16. Why can it be adapted to F-35 to give it a boost in air to air combat? I would believe the F-35 would fair quite well, since in essence it is a smaller version of F/A-22. I don't think it would be quite on the level of the Eurofighter, Rafale, and Flankers in the air-to-air arena.

With future combat aircraft programs becoming more cost prohibative, what will NATO allies have a choice in buying? You can go cheap in a new model F-16 or Gripen, a medium road with the JSF, or the high road with the Eurofighter, Rafale, or F-15E. I also believe you may see a few Russian aircraft in NATO's future, with the Flanker design you can never count the Russians out of the fight.

Wasn't that all axis vectoring nozzle from GE? Which, seem to offer more angle than say the TVC on the F-22. (or at least it appear too?)

 

[LancerMc]

You might be right, The noozle was talked for awhile then disappeared from development talk. I surprised it was never thought about on the F-22 as well. It should be a concern since MiG fields an all aspect vectoring nozzle on its new test version of the of MiG-29.

 

[Crusader2000]

Here's some info to help solve the amount of armament the JSF can carry.

A pic of a possible load out from JSF.mil

I have also attached a pdf file from LM with the spec for all three models
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=15965&rsbci=11173&fti=0&ti=0&sc=400

It clearly states 2 missiles internally with 2 ground muntions
plus additional store on out pylons

Well, in its Strike Role. It always list 2-JDAM's (either 1,000lb or 2,000lb PGM depending on model) and 2-AMRAAM's. Yet, it will clearly be used in the Air to Air Role with many countries. Personally, I doubt it will operate in that role with only 4 missiles. (i.e. in my opinion) Of course you can carry more externally. Yet, it would loose much of its RCS in the process. Which, takes away much of the JSF Advantage.:fly

 

[Crusader2000]

You might be right, The noozle was talked for awhile then disappeared from development talk. I surprised it was never thought about on the F-22 as well. It should be a concern since MiG fields an all aspect vectoring nozzle on its new test version of the of MiG-29.

If, I remember correctly it looked much like the turkey feathers from a F-110. Yet, could direct the thrust in any direction. (i.e. up, down, and side to side) Personally, I bet we see them in one form or another on the JSF later in its development................:smash

 

[Dr Phobus]

What i am hearing is that TV does not do a whoel lot for combat utlilty, but is an excellent saftey feature to "recover" the plan, there is also some advantage at take off.

Why is TV primarily a Russian "pursuit" (Save F-22, all 183 of them !!) why does none of the European's warplanes have it, i have not even heard about it talked of with the Typhoon program as a possible upgrade, yet, the Spainist have a workable system. Is it because its not that important ? Hence the F-35 will not have such a system either ?

thoughts please

 

[Crusader2000]

What i am hearing is that TV does not do a whoel lot for combat utlilty, but is an excellent saftey feature to "recover" the plan, there is also some advantage at take off.

Why is TV primarily a Russian "pursuit" (Save F-22, all 183 of them !!) why does none of the European's warplanes have it, i have not even heard about it talked of with the Typhoon program as a possible upgrade, yet, the Spainist have a workable system. Is it because its not that important ? Hence the F-35 will not have such a system either ?

thoughts please

I would agree that many don't see it as a big priority. Yet, TVC would make any aircraft more "pointable".:smash Which, would surely be a great asset during ACM.:gun



FLY NAVY

 

[Dr Phobus]

Interesting point, however, with JSF's wrap round IR sensors and LOA launch missile, the ability pointing the noise maybe not so important for IRAAM shooting. Still, i am looking forward to others opinions. :

 

[Crusader2000]

Interesting point, however, with JSF's wrap round IR sensors and LOA launch missile, the ability pointing the noise maybe not so important for IRAAM shooting. Still, i am looking forward to others opinions. :

You bring up some vail points. Yet, the Russians think very highly of TVC. Also, the US has spend great sums to equip the Raptor with it.............Regardless, I appreciate you opinion!

 

[LancerMc]

It is valid to say with the best sensors the JSF won't need a TVC, but many countries will probably not be able to afford the most advance versions of the JSF. A less costly version with TVC would give these JSF a better chance in combat.

 

[Dr Phobus]

TVC is only fitted to F22A, and some flanker varients. Its not a widespread fit on 4/4.5/5G planes. Yes, the Fulcrum varient will also have it (SMT ?) that are not even in production. The overall lack of numbers of plans with TVC again rases the issue of its utility.

As for the F-22 and the cost the american put into it, i think it occured because it was cutting edge technology at ther time and the Red's were also developing it, and yes it does improve performance somewhat. Do not get me wrong, I perfer to see it on Typhoon/JSF/Rafale. I just do not think it as "sexy" as some people thought it would be.

I doubt the TVC is a substite for wrap round staring IR senors. This wrap round technology you will see more and more.

Thankyou for your thoughts.