Not at all. Just the high weighting giving to the apparent marginal kinematic and aerodynamic performance improvement of types like the Su-30 over the F-35 as part of an index of lethality. This kind of weighting has fuelled the constant statements by APA and their ilk that Australia will not have any ‘first class’ fighters whereas other countries equipped with Su-30s will have plenty.
Thats fine mate but i dont know why your bringing this up. I Admitted I was wrong, i stated that APA's conclusions were wrong and i have stated MANY times now that the F35 will be far superior to the SU 30 in air to air combat especially when operating inside of a network.
The charts – which ‘Ozzy Blizzard’ has gleefully linked to – indicate huge shortfalls in Australia’s overall capability. As you now point out above this is total nonsense. The F-35s advantages in a whole range of other areas and operating as part of a total air combat force mean the Su-30’s better wing-loading or whatever count for naught in terms of lethality.
You really do think I'm Kopp or Goon or someone dont you????????????????? Dude you've been thinking about this WAY too much. I'm 22 for f*#k sake!!!
Not at all. I’m simply treating this low level of argument with the scorn it deserves. Not hate – scorn… Its not a personal attack on APA and their ilk but on the argument they offer and ‘Ozzy Blizzard’ has promoted and supported at every opportunity on this forum.
No i did in two other threads because i believed the threat was real and the deficiencies portrayed by APA were important. But after i thought about it, extensively and dispassionatly since that argument became personal, i realised that the conclusions they drew were wrong and they had not dealt with a huge portion of the argument. Thats why i brought it up and thats why i argued it, I thought it was right for my nation and i was concerned about the principle defenceive arm of the ADF and the single largest purchase in the ADF's history. Not because i'm actually affiliated with APA and i'm just persuing their "cause".
The big difference here is civil society. We have it, the Russians don’t. This is why publicly listed companies like Lockheed Martin take so much time to make public statements – they are getting it proofed by lawyers and the like because if they are found to be misinforming customers they will get sued for it. Things don’t work that way in Russia or for that matter… wait for it… Air Power Australia!
Ohh... i'm touched. An american corporation has NEVER lied before!!! Geesh where were you when ENRON collapsed????? And i didnt mean they would be providing a faulty product, just not beeing 100% forthcoming about the outcomes of the test. Anyway this is so far of the topic and i dont want to get into an argument on US corporate conduct.
Quite literally you can take a statement like this from Lockheed to the bank, from others… well I don’t make investments based on financial advice emanating from Nigeria or the propaganda department of Russian MoD.
I'm not going to get into this it'll go on for hours.
Quite wrong. This is an annual statement made by the USAF CoS outlining their priorities to lobby Congress for funding. Things that do not have secure funding go to the top. Which is why after USAF secured the MYP for F-22 it went to the bottom. Plus these priorities are weighting in accordance with those projects that will need the most lobbying to get approval. A huge project like F-35 which is highly unlikely to get cancelled doesn’t need the same effort as a pie in the sky grab for more F-22s which has little political support. From last year’s statement:
“Tanker hits top of the charts for recapitalization priority
by Staff Sgt. C. Todd Lopez
Air Force Print News
10/13/2006 - WASHINGTON (AFPN) -- The Air Force's new No. 1 procurement priority is the KC-X tanker, replacing the F-22 Raptor.
"Our priorities for procurement are the following," said Chief of Staff of the Air Force Gen. T. Michael Moseley. "The KC-X, the new tanker, is No. 1. CSAR-X, the new combat rescue helicopter, is No. 2. Our space-based early warning and communications satellites are No 3. The F-35 (Lightning II) is No. 4. And the next generation long range strike bomber is No. 5."
During discussions with newspaper reporters here Oct. 12, General Moseley said the F-22 program has stabilized.
The Air Force recently secured multi-year procurement funding for the Raptor from Congress. That funding would affect Raptor purchases until about 2012. Now that the Air Force is secure in the number of Raptors it will purchase, and in the price it will pay for them, it has shifted its procurement priorities, the chief of staff said.”
Again the article states this clearly. He doesent mention the Raptor as much because the the future of the platform seems fixed. The F35 is too big to stop and i agree there is no chance of it being cancelled bar global warming happening in 5 years, but the F35 isnt funded, the production lines may indeed be opening but there are no guarentees on the numbers of aircraft to be procured.
F-35 is not just in SDD on funding, it is funded for production. The line has been started and it won’t close for a very long time. That is a huge difference between having the line open and not, as in SDD
How many aricraft have been purchased i wonder????? It wont be cancelled i agree but its future is far from 100% "secure" i.e. aircraft bought and paid for. The only aircraft that have been bought are the test aircraft. Now the COS may be waiting to fight that battle when he comes to it, thats a fair enough point, but there does seem to be a sertain apathy
I for one are sick of this ridiculous interpretation of US politics provided by APA and their ilk which constantly supports the F-22 and its export no matter what the realities, and suggests the F-35 is on the verge of project cancellation. It has been proven wrong at every turn.
It seems the prosepects for F22 export ar slim but that doesent meen we cant talk about it does it?????
Hah haha… I’m just doing this for the benefit of our RAAF readers who are all seriously aggrieved at the way they have had their professional reputation dragged through the mud by you OB/CK (identicalness in language and IP addresses are a big giveaway old chum). Watching you scurry around under the barrage is worth it. Sure this may not be the most mature thing in the world but retribution rarely is.
You really belive this crap dont you? I thought you were just being an asshole. You think i've been a member on here for a few years, diliberatly mirepresented my age and occupation, sat here biding my time asking questions and acting stupid untill the chance came along for me to promote the APA cause. Mate you are a sad sad man. Why dont you actually check my IP adress or get GF too???
I'll PM you my identity, if you keep this crap up i will take it up with Webbs.
However in my defence I am providing the readers here at DT a range of new and valuable information and neutral and accurate analysis. If they want me to stop they can ban me.
HA!!! balanced!!!
nfloorl:. Mate in your opinion any critisism of your pet platform is propaganda. I've not once heard you say a single bad thing about the F35, that alone indicates how ballanced your analysis is.
Since when did I mention USAF? I mentioned JORN? 1RSU is not on the USAF orbat… Nor did I label the Tu-22 irrelevant, despite it not actually being an acquisition or capability held by a regional nation. I labelled the APA argument that the only way to defeat a Tu-22 is with a F-22 as irrelevant.
You mentioned Tu22 and the USAF's strategic might in the same sentance. And as i said before its not just the platform its the cruise missile threat in general. And your right there are other ways to deal with high speed high altitude threats, placing platforms outside their launch ranges with EW from JORN is one, so is pre empting and hitting the threat on the ground. But a squadons of F22's couldnt hurt, and if we ever coudln't pre empt or EW was comprimised by ECm or the like then a high speed interceptor will be very usefull.
No they didn’t. Their fleet defence was based around an Aegis ship – which provided their entire defensive force a Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC). The E-2, F-14 and many other systems are just nodes in CEC. Plus this was a defence against an attack by at least several regiments of Tu-22s, or >100.
Mate thats total BS and you know it. AEGIS and SM1/2 were never going to engage a backfire, they were only meant to diliut the AShM's that the backfires launched. The only platform's that was designed to actually stop the backfires were the F14 an E2 in combination with the phoenex missile system.
More and more propaganda. Cling to the F-35 is the new F-105 ‘Thunderchief’ argument, its almost as bad as the F-35 is the new ‘Wirraway’ nonsense. Now I’ve had several discussions with the person who was the JSF program manager, when it was first established (JAST), ex Lt. Gen. George Muellner, USAF, who now works for Boeing so I guess that makes him compromised… Anyway the F-35 was NOT conceived as a CAS aircraft. From day one the requirement was for a multi-role fighter, including ATA. Because from day one the F-35 was designed to replace a range of aircraft that engage in multi-role missions including the F-16 and F/A-18.
Of corce its a multi role platform!!!!!!!!!! I said that, even APA says that. But alot of its systems are optimised for low level strike, thats the cold hard truth mate. Now does that make it a bad A2A performer, NO, the APG 81 alone is an excellend sensor and its LO will make it very lethal in BVR engagements, but it isnt designed to be a mini F22 as you portray, they both have different jobs and the F35 strike was the primary concideration, and unless your blind that is evident in the aircraft. now that doesent mean its a bad A2A performer, but you sighted the number of systems in the platform as evidence that the only reason the F22 was more expensive was because it was a biger aircraft
onfloorl: ), when most of the systems on the F35 ARE designed to allow it to work in a low level, high threat environment. The F22 and F35 are very different platforms mate and both are designed to do different jobs in the USAf OrBAT.
Surely I don’t need to add a corresponding date stamp to every statement I make? Is the mantra that the F-22 is a “golden bullet plane” something new? Did it only emerge last week? No I am referring to when the mantra began which is almost 10 years ago and subsequently when the F-22 has had to jump through so many hoops and make so many deals to survive. Even then it was reduced from 700 to 190 for its production order.
Considering the cost of the platform and the threat thats understandable. but that would indicat the platforms capabilities wouldn't it?
If you compare program survival of the F-22 to the F-35 from conception to first production order then the F-35 has been far more robust and supported. One clear example is conception to production numbers. Which for the F-22 when from 700 to 190 and for the F-35 from 2800 to 2400. One emerged through this brutal process with only 30% of units intact the other over 80%.
Again the price of the aircraft is critical and 2400 aint final.
What we have here is another textbook case of a basic level ‘information operations’ campaign conducted by a card-carrying member of the anti-F-35 intellectual cult. Facts are rare and the interpretations are loaded to bear. It may fool the kiddies but anyone here on DT interested in defence to a serious level should look deeper.
The fact that your a paraniod old man has just dawned on me. its an idelaogical struggle for you mate, i'm getting that now. You think Kopp and Goon are coming out of the woodwork!!!! They (sorry i
nfloorl
have been scurrying arround spreading intelectual disease, they even go to all the trouble of joining a forum like DT, missrepresenting themselves as uni students, asking members for advice on career options, fained ignorance on several issues, even lost arguments deliberatly all so no one suspect that they were really APA agents here to spread dismay and missinformation on the F35 purchase! Given this level of threat i can understand your commitment mate, your dealing with a conspiracy after all.
I've dealt with mental illness before and your bordering on the dilusional.
I dont want to deal with this crap anymore AGRA, its at a point now were no one can critisize the F35 in any way and not be labled an APA agent. We can candidly discuss the AWD an often do, but we cant discuss the bigest single purchase in the ADF's history because of your dilusional cause. Do everyone a favor and STFU about it!
