F-22 and Su-37

[turin]

The F-22 was designed to take on multiple Su-27 class aircraft and destroy them from long range before the other aircraft ever know the Raptor was there.

That sounds like pretty nice marketing talk, nothing more.

You ask can 1 Raptor take on Su-37s? The answer is yes.

Oh, so you are into R&D on one or both aircraft? Thats really interesting, I would like to hear more about that...

BTW... If you're going to take cost into effect when comparing 2 fighters, you also need to take into account probability of actually being built. In that instance the F-22 is way ahead of the Su-37.

Probability of Su-37 being built is zero, since its further development has been abandoned quite a while ago. All technical aspects of that design are supposed to be further developed and integrated in the new project, commonly known as PAKFA.

The F-22 is being built, yes. But the numbers, oh dear...the numbers....

 

[highsea]

The F-22 is being built, yes. But the numbers, oh dear...the numbers....

Hmmm. Well, the numbers will be where they need to be. We know that we can't rely on the F-15 for air dominance forever. There are 60 completed F/A-22's right now, and the program is funded through 2009. Full rate production is approved, and next year we will be rolling out 3 per month.

Unit costs will go down as more AC are built, and I expect we will see a follow-on order sometime in 2007. Congress has already approved the study to address that issue, and the Raptor has a lot of support in Washington. Note that the Pentagon's plan for reducing the numbers was tossed out with almost zero debate.

Block upgrading is already underway, with the APG-77 (v)1. Supersonic JDAM release has been done, so that certification will probably come around the end of this year. Raptors 4044 and 4045 were delivered to Langley on July 25, and 4046 on the 28th, making 10 Raptors for the 27th FS, plus one maintenance loaner from Tyndall.

 

[Lightndattic]

That sounds like pretty nice marketing talk, nothing more.

How is that marketing talk? It's the truth. Is me telling you the sky is blue and the sun hot marketing talk for sunglasses? The whole point of the F22 was to outclass the latest Russian (Soviet) designs of which the Flanker is the most feared.

Oh, so you are into R&D on one or both aircraft? Thats really interesting, I would like to hear more about that...

I don't have to be in R&D for both aircraft to know that even the unclassified capabilities of the Raptor would allow it to first detect a flight of flankers before it could be seen itself, position itself for a missle shot, target all 4 aircraft and fire it's missles without being seen.

The F-22 is being built, yes. But the numbers, oh dear...the numbers....

So? We're willing to pay to have the best aircraft available.

 

[turin]

Is me telling you the sky is blue and the sun hot marketing talk for sunglasses? The whole point of the F22 was to outclass the latest Russian (Soviet) designs of which the Flanker is the most feared.

I dont know, I am not in the sunglasses industry, however said industry and its dependance on constant meteorologic phenomenons has nothing to do with comparison of partially classified technological data.
Also "Flanker" is a general description for all the latest Sukhoi designs, so your statement of the "Flanker as the most feared" is pretty much pointless, since we are speaking about a family of at least four different main developments with partially very different characteristics.

I don't have to be in R&D for both aircraft to know that even the unclassified capabilities of the Raptor would allow it to first detect a flight of flankers before it could be seen itself, position itself for a missle shot, target all 4 aircraft and fire it's missles without being seen.

What have you seen in movies lately? To much "Stealth" perhaps?
Amusing. You are aware of the fact that air combat usually is a little bit more complex than that? Geographical characteristics, the position of attacker and defender, support in terms of recon? If a Raptor or a Sukhoi for that point relies solely on its own radar during the mission then someone in mission planning made one hell of a mistake already.

So? We're willing to pay to have the best aircraft available.

Yeah, thats exactly the kind of attitude that let the F/(A)-22 end up with the price you get one for today! Now how many Su-30 MK2/whatever could another country purchase for considerable less money? Do the math.

Just to clarify my point of view. I do indeed think, that the Raptor
is the best Air superiority fighter or will be, if its ever fielded in sufficient numbers. However such bland flat statements as "one invisible Raptor kills four Flankers" are pretty much useless for objective evaluation.

 

[SU 30MKI]

I don't know why you people compairing 4th gen plane with 5 th gen plane?

Su-37 only technology demo, the things which used in su-37 will be used to upgrade Su-30 MKI .

The fifth gen plane from Russian is PAK FA,

 

[Francois]

I don't know why you people compairing 4th gen plane with 5 th gen plane?

Su-37 only technology demo, the things which used in su-37 will be used to upgrade Su-30 MKI .

The fifth gen plane from Russian is PAK FA,

India stated, while recieving their -30s, that they didn't compare, from a design point of view, with the -2000s first generation they were using for years.
-30s were supposed to be more advanced, but were laking behind very far in many points.
At least, it was used as a not-to-do thing for the LCA!
And the -30s are pretty cheap.

We are living in a world of compromises... :coffee

 

[ashblackhawk]

I think PAK-FA will come in as a real competitor to F-22, Su-37 cant compete with F-22 as far as stealth and avionics is concerned. However, what if PAK-FA comes up with a radar detecting upto 400 km radius and a BVRM with 400 kms. range !! Just a wild guess !! but i am sure russians are thinking of something like that !!

:coffee

 

[GADefence]

The F-22's engine is expected to be the first to provide the ability to fly faster than the speed of sound for an extended period of time without the high fuel consumption characteristic of aircraft that use afterburners to achieve supersonic speeds. It is expected to provide high performance and high fuel efficiency at slower speeds as well.
For its primary air-to-air role, the F-22 will carry six AIM-120C and two AIM-9 missiles. For its air-to-ground role, the F-22 can internally carry two 1,000 pound-class Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM), two AIM-120C, and two AIM-9 missiles. With the Global Positioning System-guided JDAM, the F-22 will have an adverse weather capability to supplement the F-117 (and later the Joint Strike Fighter) for air-to-ground missions after achieving air dominance.

The planned release I saw stated it could carry either 6 medium range missiles, or 4 and 2 short range missiles.

As for Supercruise, the first aircraft I knew that could do it was the F-14. At over 10'000 feet, supercruise is achievable by most jet aircraft. Guess what, the F-22 needs 10K feet too.

With it's stealth impeding it's maneouvrability, it's engines ruining it's stealth, and it's stealth just generally not working very well. . . I don't like the F-22. Doesn't really have anything big but it's price tag.

 

[gf0012-aust]

don't count on the Russians coming up with an alternative too soon. bear in mind the development and lead times involved with modern aircraft and then read this:

No Sukhoi Fighters to Be Delivered This Year

By Lyuba Pronina
Staff Writer
ZHUKOVSKY, Moscow Region -- Russia will not deliver a single one of its best-selling Sukhoi fighters this year and is postponing its fifth-generation fighter program, Mikhail Pogosyan, chief executive of Sukhoi Aviation Holding, said Wednesday.

"We expect to resume exports next year and plan to soon sign new contracts," Pogosyan said in an interview on the sidelines of the Seventh Moscow Aviation and Space Show, MAKS 2005.

In recent years, the Sukhoi jet has been the leader of Russian arms exports. Last year, Sukhoi Aviation Holding reaped $1.5 billion, mostly from the sale of fighters abroad.

But this year, Pogosyan said, no Sukhoi fighters will be delivered abroad and just 11 Su-27SM fighters will be sold to Russia's Air Force. Deliveries on previous contracts for Sukhoi jets, including to China and India, were completed last year.

Russia will also delay the launch of its fifth-generation fighter program because of meager financing, Pogosyan said.

"The test program will begin in 2008, and the jet will go into mass production in 2015," he said.

"Financial difficulties are the main problem."

Sukhoi won a government tender to develop the fighter in 2002, beating rival MiG.

The fifth-generation fighter is meant to replace Russia's best-selling fourth-generation MiG-29 and Su-27 fighters.

It was expected to go into mass production for both domestic and foreign air forces in 2010.
"The money for the design draft has been paid. The decision is now being made [by the government] to significantly increase financing," allowing Sukhoi to meet its new deadline, he said.

Pogosyan said that Sukhoi had already spent some $100 million on the program.

Industry players say that the new fighter is needed to preserve Russia's scientific and engineering edge and to enable it to offer a new product to customers abroad.

Irkut Corp., the maker of Sukhoi fighter jets, said profit rose more than 34-fold last year, Bloomberg reported on Wednesday, citing a company statement.

Net income rose to $68.4 million, from $2 million one year earlier, and sales rose 19 percent to $622 million under International Accounting Standards.

Irkut's net debt fell by $163 million to $407 million.

The company had $3.9 billion of orders on its books at the end of the year, the company said.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2005/08/18/051.html

With it's stealth impeding it's maneouvrability, it's engines ruining it's stealth, and it's stealth just generally not working very well. . . I don't like the F-22.

considering the fact that in real terms we know more about the International Space Station than we do about the F-22's capabilities, I think you're making some broad and unqualified guesses. The information released on the test squadron already shows an aircraft that is a generation aheady of existing planes. When tactics have to be rewritten (as is happening) then you know that the future combat issues are about to be met by new technologies and capabilities and that a new tipping point is emerging.

 

[Francois]

Yes, you may not like the -22, but, AFAIK, it won't have competitor before few decades. Pak-FA, if it keeps the ground (i.e. the definition phase), should be slightly level with the european last fighters, on the perf issue, but I know at least three areas were russians are far behind.

-22s won't be sold in foreign countries, except Japan (which rather needs them), because of its level of technology.
If I had the choice, I wouldn't never buy russian.

 

[GADefence]

considering the fact that in real terms we know more about the International Space Station than we do about the F-22's capabilities, I think you're making some broad and unqualified guesses. The information released on the test squadron already shows an aircraft that is a generation aheady of existing planes. When tactics have to be rewritten (as is happening) then you know that the future combat issues are about to be met by new technologies and capabilities and that a new tipping point is emerging.

Well, to be honest, when a drastic change arrives, people tend to get change too. If it's a good change, it tends to get positive results, if it's a bad one. . . People leave. Some admirals left when the F-18 was said to replace the A-6 and F-14. Some left after seeing the F-22's deplorable capabilities.

It's NOT secret because it's stealthy people.

http://pogo.org/p/defense/da-050301-fa22.html
http://www.pogo.org/p/defense/do-000812-f22.htm
"Fighters, with radar to search for and find the enemy autonomously, at long ranges, cannot hide their high powered electric emissions to modern, sophisticated, Russian equipment."
Good, so you can hide from American sensors. God bless you'll be fighting those guys with F-22's very often.

Would have been better off to give Lockheed a billion bucks and tell them to research "How to make rocks fly".

 

[gf0012-aust]

It's NOT secret because it's stealthy people.

http://pogo.org/p/defense/da-050301-fa22.html
http://www.pogo.org/p/defense/do-000812-f22.htm
"Fighters, with radar to search for and find the enemy autonomously, at long ranges, cannot hide their high powered electric emissions to modern, sophisticated, Russian equipment."
Good, so you can hide from American sensors. God bless you'll be fighting those guys with F-22's very often.

Would have been better off to give Lockheed a billion bucks and tell them to research "How to make rocks fly".

POGO aren't exactly the most reliable source to provide a vehicle of rebuttal

What the writer omitted to include is that there are active and passive systems, and then there is the fusion with all of the other harvesting options available.

Although it sounds good to the "believers" to try and dumb down a system to its lowest common denominater, it does little to demonstrate that they're actually being honest about their argument. - In the case of the POGO article, that borders on blatant dishonesty - let alone topical sophistry.

POGO has apparently never heard about combined arms, and is still arguing concepts that had validity prior to 1991 - not the 21st Century.

 

[Francois]

POGO aren't exactly the most reliable source to provide a vehicle of rebuttal ...

This being said, the narrow-emission capability of the radar in active mode makes it rather effective (more power in a single direction) and no tale-tell.

 

[GADefence]

POGO aren't exactly the most reliable source to provide a vehicle of rebuttal

Well, consider a deal a things I head come out of the American Army, I don't consider them a reliable source anymore. So personal opinions do matter in a situation = P

As for the rest of your post . . . Did you skip a few words there? What you said made no sense.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Well, consider a deal a things I head come out of the American Army, I don't consider them a reliable source anymore.

I don't understand what you're saying here?

So personal opinions do matter in a situation = P

Of course. but I don't actually see POGO involved in weapons development or weapons assessment or procurement, they seem to be accountants more than analysts. More to the point, they're technically inaccurate. If you choose to believe them, then thats your choice. Do you go to a dentist or an accountant to deal with teeth problems?

As for the rest of your post . . . Did you skip a few words there? What you said made no sense.

Thats unfortunate - refer to part 1, we thus appear to have mutual problems.

 

[GADefence]

pogo

I don't understand what you're saying here?




Of course. but I don't actually see POGO involved in weapons development or weapons assessment or procurement, they seem to be accountants more than analysts. More to the point, they're technically inaccurate. If you choose to believe them, then thats your choice. Do you go to a dentist or an accountant to deal with teeth problems?

1) Sorry. I had changed a few words in my phrase and forgot to update the others. Basically, I've heard a few things by the american army that make me think it's either mortaly retarded, or blatatnly lying, and I don't consider it a reliable source of information anymore.

2) Try inputing the F-22's flight charactheristics into any normal flight sim, you'll find it doesn't preform well. Further, the guy who wrote the article (which is what you should be looking at) was a US Colonel. . . As well, there was an article (which I'm trying to refind) about a MiG-25 taking down the F-22. To the point, if you think pogo is technically inaccurate, please give me a web site with a review of the F-22 that doesn't simply say "It's awesome!" or "We barely know anything about this aircraft!" or "It can do a lot of things! (a list of several self contradictory things)"

 

[gf0012-aust]

pogo

1) Sorry. I had changed a few words in my phrase and forgot to update the others. Basically, I've heard a few things by the american army that make me think it's either mortaly retarded, or blatatnly lying, and I don't consider it a reliable source of information anymore.

well, that's your choice.

2) Try inputing the F-22's flight charactheristics into any normal flight sim, you'll find it doesn't preform well.

Please don't tell me that you're serious about this as a form of analysis....

Further, the guy who wrote the article (which is what you should be looking at) was a US Colonel. . .

and your point is? should we refer to Sparks about LAV performance? LeMay about the worth of SSBN's? Towers about battleships? Sukhov about Aircraft Carriers?

As well, there was an article (which I'm trying to refind) about a MiG-25 taking down the F-22.

and where has this mythical encounter happened? The furthest they've flown is Elmendorf - not a lot of Mig 25's out there If they have flown them against the local Mig25 at Nellis, then you sure as heck wouldn't see it on a public forum.

To the point, if you think pogo is technically inaccurate, please give me a web site with a review of the F-22 that doesn't simply say "It's awesome!" or "We barely know anything about this aircraft!" or "It can do a lot of things! (a list of several self contradictory things)"

Hmmm, the fact that you've seen some reference to an engagement of an Mig25 with an F-22 and are prepared to believe that and a POGO report does tend to colour your money.

I'm quite happy for you to believe whatever you like, but try and add some rigour to the analysis.

btw, what has any of this got to do with the Su-37? The Russians have abandoned the Su-37 as a failed concept, so I'm curious as to why your angst on the F-22. If you don't like it - then fine.

The rest of the thread beckons.

 

[Francois]

Try inputing the F-22's flight charactheristics into any normal flight sim, you'll find it doesn't preform well.

Did you also simulate the FCS and you have access to the FBW and its software also?
I am very impressed! If so, you don't need to ask questions...

As well, there was an article (which I'm trying to refind) about a MiG-25 taking down the F-22.

Please find the article, I am getting curious now...
Did they try it against a spitfire too? (jkd).

Su-37 doesn't exists. It is S-37 Berkut that does, one single demonstrator.
Su- numbers are given after qual and prior to delivery.

 

[GADefence]

Please don't tell me that you're serious about this as a form of analysis....

No, I just though it was a funny fact.

and where has this mythical encounter happened? The furthest they've flown is Elmendorf - not a lot of Mig 25's out there If they have flown them against the local Mig25 at Nellis, then you sure as heck wouldn't see it on a public forum.

Actually, it was supposed to be a training excerside between the two. To be honest, I'm more looking for a link about that fight then anything.

I'm quite happy for you to believe whatever you like, but try and add some rigour to the analysis.

I had, more then a single site had stated that. POGO just happens to be the only one I refound after I didn't look at them for a few months. As for rigorous analysis, I love most of the accepted truths of the F-22. Most things I read about it range form "It can do this now." More Secerets Revealed on the F-22 being a good article to show this at. I think one of your forumers posted the link, I'll be posting there next.

btw, what has any of this got to do with the Su-37? The Russians have abandoned the Su-37 as a failed concept, so I'm curious as to why your angst on the F-22. If you don't like it - then fine.

No, not really. I truly loved the design for the SU-47 Berkut. . . Unless you're talking about the SU-37 Flanker prototype. Which I find very good. As for the F-22, I just really. . . REALLY hate it, the F-18 and the F-35. So happens the F-22 is the first link I saw.

 

[scraw]

“Most important – 175-250 fighters do not allow for multiple, simultaneous missions like the thousands in our F-15, F-16, and F-18 fleets can perform.â€

Strange how he neglects to mention the F-22 won't suddenly be the only thing flying...

Al Qaeda doesn’t train, enlist, or use fighter pilots,†Riccioni writes. “Terrorists do not employ fighter forces. There is no need for new air superiority fighters.â€

I imagine they came in rather handy invading Iraq though...

The F–22 is not a Stealthy Aircraft. Visually—The F–22, one of the world’s largest, most identifiable fighters, cannot hide in daylight

That invisibility caper is rather hard to master...