F-16 & technology transfer for IAF

[gf0012-aust]

Guys,
India maynot control the congress, but it does control the media that controls the people who control the congress. If india wants it, U S would roll over to rpovide it---but what you may get today may not be the same tomorrow.

So what may happen, a change of alliances may be the order of the future. Pakistan, china and russia---U S and the wannabe super power India

I can't see Russia and India not being in an alliance. They have a mutual support treaty and the relationship has been long and persistent for decades. In addition, there is the issue of China and Siberia, it's estimated that some 3 million Chinese are now living in that region and that has for a long time posed some difficulties for Russia. They see it as immigration by stealth. I've spoken to a number of Russian military personnel who have bitterly complained about this issue, they see that one day, China waill try to acquire the land by proxy, and that there will be a shooting war over Siberias resources.

Russia still sees that China is more of its nemesis than the US is. At a tactical level, strategic and geopolitical level, China is the far greater problem for them. They will feel vindicated somewhat in the fact that the US pressured Russia not to attack Lop Nor some 30 years ago, so they will be expecting the US no matter how obliquely to step aside if they so choose to start exercising internal politics.

There is a greater chance of China being allied to the US than Russia not being allied to India.

Putin has reaffirmed the Russo/Indian committment consistently. They know that if China is buying Russian weapons, it is also trying to reverse engineer them, so they don't provide them with the same export quality as they do India. They also know that India will not do the "dirty" on them by stealing their tech.

A sino/russo/pakistani alliance is not going to happen.

 

[mysterious]

I'd say its for India to decide between the US and Russia. Pakistan has already chosen China as its long-term ally while playing hide 'n' seek with the US (due to problems created by both the parties). Pakistan just bought Mi-17s from Russia 'directly' and other equipment 'indirectly' as the stuff it buys from China has a good degree of Russian stuff in it. So Pakistan at the moment (and for a long time - apart from a brief break) is trying to harvest the best of both the worlds. India's alliance decision is going to be quite crucial I'd say, bearing in mind that recently there's been more interaction between US and India on defense issues than Russia and India. :roll

 

[lalith prasad]

buying mi17 is no big deal it is readily available even to pakistan but can pakistan acquire fighters or submarines or warships from russia.no. pervez musharraf requested russia to supply fighters and warships however russia refused outright.

 

[adsH]

buying mi17 is no big deal it is readily available even to pakistan but can pakistan acquire fighters or submarines or warships from russia.no. pervez musharraf requested russia to supply fighters and warships however russia refused outright.

its obvious they would refuse first First pakistan reminds of the bitter defeat the Soviets aka Russian empire experienced, second they have India as a major client who always buys in large amounts and it has always been loyal to them. its makes no sense to sell Pakistan couple of billion dollars worth of weaponry and loose a trusted client (india). The Mi17 Helis were a big step, but that the extent of this trade relations.
Russia wants to cooperate in Business sectors like Manufacturing Russian Car and vehicle brands in Pakistan they are also interested in Steal mill expansion. Pakistan can export to the US At low Export Duties and is about to become FTA Sector.

they're also interested in Pakistan governmental reforms like NAB which monitors every governmental spending and transaction (so they want to study the Tightly controlled Anti corruption reforms in Pak government), they also want to solve the chechen problem with Pakistan's assistance, ie intelligence and help understating them, (if you can solve a problem without force). they are merely helping Pakistan's security services by providing them much needed hardware.

 

[VICTORA1]

gf0012,
It is understandable that russia has its concerns over chinese expansion---but indian part is not very predictable for the future. Economic alliances will foreshadow any other loyalties or relations in the future. The U S sees a nascent billion plus market for its goods and services in india. It will play every trick in the book and then some to get the indians to look their way.

On the other hand india don't like to have sanctions imposed on it (sanctions are imposed upon little boys). If it was not for the unreliable aspect of the relationship with the U S, it is my bellief that russia would be out of the picture by now.

 

[gf0012-aust]

If it was not for the unreliable aspect of the relationship with the U S, it is my bellief that russia would be out of the picture by now.

Really? I must confess that I thought that the Indo-Russian relationship was almost unbreakable due to the common perception of China being an emerging problem for both.

I was assuming that the weighting was higher due to geographical reasons as well.

It's an interesting dynamic. I deal with an Indian Company that is one of the largest wind turbine manufacturers in the world, and they have just bought into the US. There are some significant cultural disconnects as Indians take a considered approach to business, in some respects they are "harder" at the game, as they can be just as commercially ruthless. I'd always found it odd that they were commercially closer to the US than Russians - who play the game very very differently.

At a commercial level, I do see that India and the US are a better "fit" than India and Russia - but, as I said, I had always assumed that the "Nehru" side of the equation was stronger.

 

[Soldier]

GF, You are right so there is nothing to confess. Russian-Indian cooperation is time-tested and has faced a lot of trouble-waters. As much as China cares for Pakistan, perhaps if not less more then that it is Ind0-Russian friendship. There is a big, and I mean real huge lobby of people and politicians in India, who will take Russia anyday on US. What everyone forgets is, that Indian Politicians have always played their cards perfectly, no matter how creep they are. But don;t we know this is the world of Creeps only.
Something which India has learnt from US affair with Pakistan is, that no matter what, if US has to be trusted to some extent, it has to be trusted on Indian terms and not vice-versa. People who think India will be ready to get into US lobby and leave Russia are leaving in a Disney World.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Admin: You are a long term member. You know what is acceptable to post on here. Please remember this in future so that your posts don't have to be edited.

 

[adsH]

feild marshal this is unnecessary Bull S** remember if you respect others, then others respect you !! trying to insult a country is not an appropriate behavior!!

 

[fieldmarshal]

But my friends that is the reality n the truth. I did not intend to offend any 1, but the state that russia is in 2day is really bad. They would do wt it takes to get funding.

 

[VICTORA1]

gf and others,
I don't know how far I can go into this discussion on this thread. I will let the MOD decide.

Now, there is no disrespect meant to anyone------plz.

While the indian government was playing proxy to the russians during the vietnam war and the cold war period, the indian immigrants to the U S of A were on a totally different mission. They started migrating to this country in the early sixties, larger numbers in the seventies and in much higher numbers in the eighties and nineties. The unique thing about this group of people was that they were highly educated. They came here as doctors and worked in the hospitals, they came as engineers and worked in the related fields of technology, they came here as educators and you could find them in any college any university USA, they came as investors and you could not find a motel or a convenience store that was not owned by an indian. A lots of them were brilliant scientists and investors----a lots of them came here to settle. They lived in the community and made it a part of them. They believed that in the U S of A the power lies with the people.

On the other hand, the pakistani government was always in alliance with the U S of A. Most of the pakistanis that came to this country were a labour class people---very hard working people no doubt that---but of them, a very smal minority was in esteemed proffessions like that of educators, doctors, engineers etc. Also the majority of pakistanis stayed aloof from the mainsteam america, living in the belief that they had the U S govt. with them all the time. Well when the reality struck, the pain was xtremely excruciating.

Well my case in point being that if the U S really wants to go for it to take india as an all time ally in that region, indian congress would not be able to hold onto to russia and niether would the bjp be. Remember this prosperity that india has is because of the expats investments majority of whom live in the U S. Plus U S would have the backing and support of hundreds of highly positioned indian origin americans to support its planning.

But most of my pakistani colleagues would not understand that there are still quite a few americans in power, who would side with the pakistanis rather than the indians---it is just a personal kind of thing with the americans. They have a unique relationship with pakistan that would not go away just like that.

 

[gf0012-aust]

gf and others,
I don't know how far I can go into this discussion on this thread. I will let the MOD decide.

Now, there is no disrespect meant to anyone------plz.

I realise that you don't mean to disrespect anyone here. Sometimes the problem is one of cultural disconnect even within a culture - and that can be generational, it can be due to life experiences.

I actually do concur with a lot of what you say. The issue for everyone (and that includes all potential respondents) is that there is a need to comprehend that everyone in here has different life experiences to bring to the table. The older you are (and that includes yourself, aussie digger and myself - and I would hazard a guess that there are a few others as well!) - have experienced different things - and possibly more things - because our age has given us a greater opportunity to see, do, hear and participate in more events.

When we talk about those experiences it is to pass knowledge along - it's not meant to dismiss other perspectives, dismiss other opinions.

The key is to stay receptive to other information - without disrespecting others. Life can be a long slow journey, and all of us will discover that those things that we held true and unimpeachable become subject to review - subject to change, and sometimes their prev importance becomes challenged as we see more of life.

People to need to recognise the spirit of intent - and not see that these things are meant to challenge our own value systems as a form of contest. - they cannot, unless we elect to acknowledge them and participate willingly.

/speech off

 

[adsH]

On the other hand, the pakistani government was always in alliance with the U S of A. Most of the pakistanis that came to this country were a labour class people---very hard working people no doubt that---but of them, a very smal minority was in esteemed proffessions like that of educators, doctors, engineers etc. Also the majority of pakistanis stayed aloof from the mainsteam america, living in the belief that they had the U S govt. with them all the time. Well when the reality struck, the pain was xtremely excruciating.

Well my case in point being that if the U S really wants to go for it to take india as an all time ally in that region, indian congress would not be able to hold onto to russia and niether would the bjp be. Remember this prosperity that india has is because of the expats investments majority of whom live in the U S. Plus U S would have the backing and support of hundreds of highly positioned indian origin americans to support its planning.

But most of my pakistani colleagues would not understand that there are still quite a few americans in power, who would side with the pakistanis rather than the indians---it is just a personal kind of thing with the americans. They have a unique relationship with pakistan that would not go away just like that.

I don't know what you think victora, but i haven't heard of any pakistani/American that isn't well off in the US, is this true!! there was one thing that you said and i do agree with it, and that is that Pakistani's are hard working people.

 

[Deltared075]

India maybe can buy some second hand F16, but technology transfer?

Well, I need see the India Prime Minister put his/her Hand over US president shoulder first!

 

[adsH]

india is not interested in F-16 they call it old tech !! but the fact is that, its not the most cleverest move to Induct F-16 in IAF simply because it would stretch there maintenance training and other support services and would casue a Two types of mind set one western and the other russian. its not feasible for them.

 

[P.A.F]

and also the pakistanis are better on those aircrafts. anyway, i agree with the indians for sayin that f-16 is low-tech. these much better aircrafts out now.

 

[XEROX]

Low Tech??

AESA radar???

 

[adsH]

aesa is the Array based radar. F-16 is not low tech if your onn about F-16i or the F-16E/F Block 60 or 50. But the rest are pritty much old!!. But F-16 has been around for while its design even tho ahead of its time will become obsolete soon ( 2015), india wants new platforms, and they would never consider buying second hand ac. Besides IAF has traditionally been Russian equipment operator, they have a different way of approaching there objectives. so they would never induct an American AC.

 

[XEROX]

yeah i was talking about block 60

 

[lalith prasad]

not exactly india has western jets also like jaguars,mirage2000,hawks,avros,canberras,allouette3 and 5 etc.integrating western technology wouldnt be much of a problem.