Even More MKIs?

[Feanor]

Just to clarify the 117S is now the AL-41S, with 96 of them ordered for the upcoming VVS Su-35 order.

 

[hellfire]

Just to clarify the 117S is now the AL-41S, with 96 of them ordered for the upcoming VVS Su-35 order.

so does it mean that the PAK FA wil get the same engine.

 

[Feanor]

Allegedly. Of course it will be modified, probably improved based on operating experience. Same with the avionics. That's essentially the point of using the proposed PAK-FA material on the Su-35BM.

 

[Salty Dog]

AFAIK Phazotron (Zhuk-ASE) and Tikhomirov NIIP are developing AESA radars for the Su-35BM/Su-30MK. Any recent developments on these?

 

[Haavarla]

AFAIK Phazotron (Zhuk-ASE) and Tikhomirov NIIP are developing AESA radars for the Su-35BM/Su-30MK. Any recent developments on these?

Zippo so far..
I imagine the NIIP N0035 PESA radar are much closer to service evaluation than those AESA..


I wonder if those 1996 prod Su-30MKI's that are slated for upgrades will get the N0035 PESA radar?


Thanks

 

[Salty Dog]

Zippo so far..
I imagine the NIIP N0035 PESA radar are much closer to service evaluation than those AESA..

I wonder if those 1996 prod Su-30MKI's that are slated for upgrades will get the N0035 PESA radar?

Thanks

Thanks mate. The NIIP N035 Irbis-E AFAIK should be the production radar for the Su-35 as well as the upgrade radar for the IAF Su-30MKI. This is a PESA augmented with mechanical steering so is considered a "hybrid" ESA.

 

[Haavarla]

Thanks mate. The NIIP N035 Irbis-E AFAIK should be the production radar for the Su-35 as well as the upgrade radar for the IAF Su-30MKI. This is a PESA augmented with mechanical steering so is considered a "hybrid" ESA.

Thx.
A few more question.

Do the NIIP N035 Irbis-E come with electronic scanning in elevation/azimuth on top of the mechanical steering?

With the power of this radar, it will undoutebly light up like a Xmas tree on the enemy AWACS screens if transmitting on full gain and so on.
Much like the radar on the Mig-31 do.

But this Irbis-E beeing a considerble newer radar with better software, different modes and better noise reduction filters/ computer power..
How much more jamming resistance will it be over the BARs on the current MKI's?

Will it have any mode where it can transmitt/receive in considerble weaker gain level, like training mode etc etc?
Edit: I was thinking more in a "passive search mode.."?


Thanks

 

[Feanor]

Just to add a little detail, given that the Su-35S is entering serial production... I would imagine that the Irbis is ready for prouction also.

 

[Haavarla]

Just to add a little detail, given that the Su-35S is entering serial production... I would imagine that the Irbis is ready for prouction also.

You say IS entering production.
Do you have any indication if the KNAAPO Su-35S series prod line have started?

If not, when can we expect it to start?


Thanks

 

[Salty Dog]

Do the NIIP N035 Irbis-E come with electronic scanning in elevation/azimuth on top of the mechanical steering?

The Irbis-E should have the same phased array electronic steering as the NIIP N011B BARS, +/-70 degrees in azimuth and +/-40 degrees in elevation. I do not know the mechanical parameters.

But this Irbis-E beeing a considerble newer radar with better software, different modes and better noise reduction filters/ computer power..
How much more jamming resistance will it be over the BARs on the current MKI's?

The Irbis-E is claimed to have twice the bandwidth and more frequency agility than the BARS, so yes it should have a better ECCM capability.

Will it have any mode where it can transmitt/receive in considerble weaker gain level, like training mode etc etc?

I do not know.

 

[Feanor]

You say IS entering production.
Do you have any indication if the KNAAPO Su-35S series prod line have started?

If not, when can we expect it to start?


Thanks

The engines have already been ordered, and the delivery date is ~2011. So I'd imagine it's already started, to make those deadlines. I'll see if I can get anything more definite.

 

[dragonfire]

The Irbis-E should have the same phased array electronic steering as the NIIP N011B BARS, +/-70 degrees in azimuth and +/-40 degrees in elevation. I do not know the mechanical parameters.



The Irbis-E is claimed to have twice the bandwidth and more frequency agility than the BARS, so yes it should have a better ECCM capability.

@ SD

Any ideas on the range on the Irbis-E as compared to that of the Bars on the MKI as well the diff in terms of no of targets which can be scanned and tracked ?

Thanks in Advance !

 

[Haavarla]

@ SD

Any ideas on the range on the Irbis-E as compared to that of the Bars on the MKI as well the diff in terms of no of targets which can be scanned and tracked ?

Thanks in Advance !

The N011M BARS radar:

In the air to air mode:
The N011M Bars offers a true look down, shoot down capability with a detection range of 140 km against a target with a Radar cross section (RCS) of 2 m2. Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once.
The N011M can use a number of short range and speed search modes and is capable of identifying the type and number of multiple targets.
The Bars radar is compatible with R-77 and R-27 radar guided missiles providing both illumination and data-link guidance as well as the R-73 IR guided missile.

In air to ground mode:
In the air to surface mode the radar is capable of detecting ground and naval based moving targets, determining their location and maintaining a track on two surface targets at once.
The N011 is capable of detecting a tank sized target to a range maximum range of 50 km and a destroyer sized target to a range of 150 km.
Bars also features a mapping mode using either real beam, dopplar beam sharpening or Synthetic aperture radar with a maximum resolution of 10 meters.
The Kh-31 anti-radiation missile is also compatible with the radar.
We can also add the Bhramos missile here.


IRBIS-E radar:

Air to Air mode:
The N035's computing system consists of two Russian Solo-35 processors. A new two-stage mechanical drive mounts the phased array. The passive electronic array scans 60° in azimuth and elevation, while the mechanical steering enables the array to rotate an additional 60° for a wider search zone.
The Irbis-E is capable of tracking of up to 30 aerial targets in track-while-scan mode and allows simultaneous engagement of two targets using semi-active radar homing missiles or up to eight targets using active radar homing missiles. The Irbis-E is advertised to be capable of detecting and tracking a fighter-sized target head-on at 350-400 km range using its long-range detection mode within a limited sector. It is also claimed to be capable of detecting 'super-low-observable' targets with 0.01 m2 RCS at 90 km range.


Thats 4 targets engaged at once, 15 tracked and 140 km target at RCS 2m2 on the Bars.

Thats 2 semi-activ homing/ 8 activ-homing target engaged at once, 30 tracked and 90km target at 0.01 m2 RCS on the IRBIS-E radar.

Feel free to correct me here, this is strictly wiki stuff..


Thanks

 

[tphuang]

The N011M BARS radar:

In the air to air mode:
The N011M Bars offers a true look down, shoot down capability with a detection range of 140 km against a target with a Radar cross section (RCS) of 2 m2. Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once.
The N011M can use a number of short range and speed search modes and is capable of identifying the type and number of multiple targets.
The Bars radar is compatible with R-77 and R-27 radar guided missiles providing both illumination and data-link guidance as well as the R-73 IR guided missile.

In air to ground mode:
In the air to surface mode the radar is capable of detecting ground and naval based moving targets, determining their location and maintaining a track on two surface targets at once.
The N011 is capable of detecting a tank sized target to a range maximum range of 50 km and a destroyer sized target to a range of 150 km.
Bars also features a mapping mode using either real beam, dopplar beam sharpening or Synthetic aperture radar with a maximum resolution of 10 meters.
The Kh-31 anti-radiation missile is also compatible with the radar.
We can also add the Bhramos missile here.


IRBIS-E radar:

Air to Air mode:
The N035's computing system consists of two Russian Solo-35 processors. A new two-stage mechanical drive mounts the phased array. The passive electronic array scans 60° in azimuth and elevation, while the mechanical steering enables the array to rotate an additional 60° for a wider search zone.
The Irbis-E is capable of tracking of up to 30 aerial targets in track-while-scan mode and allows simultaneous engagement of two targets using semi-active radar homing missiles or up to eight targets using active radar homing missiles. The Irbis-E is advertised to be capable of detecting and tracking a fighter-sized target head-on at 350-400 km range using its long-range detection mode within a limited sector. It is also claimed to be capable of detecting 'super-low-observable' targets with 0.01 m2 RCS at 90 km range.


Thats 4 targets engaged at once, 15 tracked and 140 km target at RCS 2m2 on the Bars.

Thats 2 semi-activ homing/ 8 activ-homing target engaged at once, 30 tracked and 90km target at 0.01 m2 RCS on the IRBIS-E radar.

Feel free to correct me here, this is strictly wiki stuff..


Thanks

those are the commonly mentioned numbers for Irbis. A while ago, China tested them and found they were able to track 0.1 m^2 targets from 100 km out. Theoretically, it's capable of tracking stealth aircraft at a reasonable range to use medium range AAM. It's no question a very good radar, but not exactly the most stealthy out there.

Also, I don't really like this x targets engaged spec. In most cases, you are not going to be engaging that many target aircraft at the same time. If a flanker carries 6 medium ranged AAM and 2 short ranged AAM (which I think is quite a lot already), how many targets do you think you will be engaging concurrently?

 

[Haavarla]

those are the commonly mentioned numbers for Irbis. A while ago, China tested them and found they were able to track 0.1 m^2 targets from 100 km out. Theoretically, it's capable of tracking stealth aircraft at a reasonable range to use medium range AAM. It's no question a very good radar, but not exactly the most stealthy out there.

Also, I don't really like this x targets engaged spec. In most cases, you are not going to be engaging that many target aircraft at the same time. If a flanker carries 6 medium ranged AAM and 2 short ranged AAM (which I think is quite a lot already), how many targets do you think you will be engaging concurrently?

Right.
I was only compairing the two radars.
The most interesting feature will be the broader bandwith.
If they really can make the IRBIS-E more jamming resistance, and better nose/clutter filters.
It would indeed surpass the BARS radar.



Thanks

 

[dragonfire]

The N011M BARS radar:

In the air to air mode:
The N011M Bars offers a true look down, shoot down capability with a detection range of 140 km against a target with a Radar cross section (RCS) of 2 m2. Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once.
The N011M can use a number of short range and speed search modes and is capable of identifying the type and number of multiple targets.
The Bars radar is compatible with R-77 and R-27 radar guided missiles providing both illumination and data-link guidance as well as the R-73 IR guided missile.

In air to ground mode:
In the air to surface mode the radar is capable of detecting ground and naval based moving targets, determining their location and maintaining a track on two surface targets at once.
The N011 is capable of detecting a tank sized target to a range maximum range of 50 km and a destroyer sized target to a range of 150 km.
Bars also features a mapping mode using either real beam, dopplar beam sharpening or Synthetic aperture radar with a maximum resolution of 10 meters.
The Kh-31 anti-radiation missile is also compatible with the radar.
We can also add the Bhramos missile here.


IRBIS-E radar:

Air to Air mode:
The N035's computing system consists of two Russian Solo-35 processors. A new two-stage mechanical drive mounts the phased array. The passive electronic array scans 60° in azimuth and elevation, while the mechanical steering enables the array to rotate an additional 60° for a wider search zone.
The Irbis-E is capable of tracking of up to 30 aerial targets in track-while-scan mode and allows simultaneous engagement of two targets using semi-active radar homing missiles or up to eight targets using active radar homing missiles. The Irbis-E is advertised to be capable of detecting and tracking a fighter-sized target head-on at 350-400 km range using its long-range detection mode within a limited sector. It is also claimed to be capable of detecting 'super-low-observable' targets with 0.01 m2 RCS at 90 km range.


Thats 4 targets engaged at once, 15 tracked and 140 km target at RCS 2m2 on the Bars.

Thats 2 semi-activ homing/ 8 activ-homing target engaged at once, 30 tracked and 90km target at 0.01 m2 RCS on the IRBIS-E radar.

Feel free to correct me here, this is strictly wiki stuff..


Thanks

Wiki on the Su-30MKI page states that

N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage 4 simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least four other aircraft. The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40–50 km.

Which info is taken probably from the bharth rakshak page on the IAF Su-30s

The search range is mentioned as 350 km and a tracking range of 200 km, and they have some radar element fitted on the tail which enables a tracking range of 60 km in the rear atmosphere, which is significantly higher than from the info taken from the bars page on wiki..

Perhaps the range mentioned in the Bharath Rakshak page is about bomber / civilian aircraft sizes at those high ranges. AAP has a very detailed pictorial description on the comparitive capabilities of the radar, which sticks to the detail mentioned by you in the post, wonder which is correct

 

[Salty Dog]

Wiki on the Su-30MKI page states that



Which info is taken probably from the bharth rakshak page on the IAF Su-30s

The search range is mentioned as 350 km and a tracking range of 200 km, and they have some radar element fitted on the tail which enables a tracking range of 60 km in the rear atmosphere, which is significantly higher than from the info taken from the bars page on wiki..

Perhaps the range mentioned in the Bharath Rakshak page is about bomber / civilian aircraft sizes at those high ranges. AAP has a very detailed pictorial description on the comparitive capabilities of the radar, which sticks to the detail mentioned by you in the post, wonder which is correct

I agree at those ranges those targets are probably very large, also atmospheric conditions were probably favorable.

BTW the AN/AWG-9 on the F-14A in the 1970's could acquire air targets up to 210 km, track (24) and engage (6) simultaneously. The final version of the AN/APG-71 on the F-14D increased these ranges up to 370 km.

 

[Haavarla]

NPO SATURN


The 117С engine is a deep modernization of the AL-31F engine (generation 4++)

The 117С is an aircraft turbofan engine with a variable thrust nozzle of generation 4++ developed by NPO Saturn to the Sukhoi Design Bureau order for the export Su-35 fighter.


The 117С engine is a deep thrust-life modernization of the AL-31FP, which will be installed on the latest Sukhoi Su-30/Su-30MKI aircraft.

The modernized engine thrust has been increased by 16% compared to the base AL-31FP engine, and has reached 14500 kgf, the lifetime has been doubled, up to 4000 hours.

Such high parameters, on retention of the overall dimensions and weight, are attained due to application of an absolutely new high-tech low pressure compressor with increased air flow and efficiency, a new high-performance turbine of increased reliability with an improved blade cooling system and digital engine control system integrated with the aircraft control system.

The declared parameters have been confirmed in the course of the demonstrator engine bench and flight tests. A special NPO Saturn achievement is a stable and reliable operation of the engine at Mach number exceeding 2, which was obtained in the course of the demonstrator flight tests.

As for geometry and attachment points on the aircraft, the 117С engine conforms to its predecessors, generation 4 AL-31F and AL-31FP engines. This makes it possible, with slightly developed engine nacelles and equipment, to use the 117С engine for modernization of the entire aircraft fleet of previously manufactured Su-27/Su-30, operational both by the Russian and foreign Air Force.

On 19 February 2008, a new 117С-powered Su-35 aircraft successfully performed its first test flight.

http://www.npo-saturn.ru/!new/index.php?pid=156


When will the Su-30 series be equipped with these engines?
Could it be the four Su-30 that will emerge in the RuAF procurment deal?


Thanks

 

[SkolZkiy]

May be - but nobody knows it right now. I think yes, because there are no other engines to build.

 

[Haavarla]

Also, I don't really like this x targets engaged spec. In most cases, you are not going to be engaging that many target aircraft at the same time. If a flanker carries 6 medium ranged AAM and 2 short ranged AAM (which I think is quite a lot already), how many targets do you think you will be engaging concurrently?

Sure, but what about the networking capability of the Su-35 new radar?
Lets say if one Su-35 are transmitting on full active mode followed by four Su-27SM transmitting in passive mode.
Couldn't the Su-35 get fire solution for the other flankers as well?

I'm not sure how far the Russian gotten on the networking, but i think thats why modern radars today can fire x missile..



Thanks