European Union, member states and Agencies

[John Fedup]

There's been talk of that since 2016, but more a case if them readjusting to being an independent nation again, once they sort themselves out they'll be fine.

Probably true and I would bet on Tempest (Uk, Japan, Italy) over the EU project (Germany, France) for a sixth gen fighter. Italy may not want the UK back in the EU but they don’t seem to think fellow members are right for its future fast jet needs.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

The first equipment purchase after the EDIRPA regulation approval.

https://eda.europa.eu/news-and-events/news/2023/07/26/eu-countries-sign-up-to-eda-s-joint-procurement-for-cbrn-and-soldier-equipment

 

[swerve]

I see that there is talk within the UK of wanting to rejoin the EU. They're starting to learn that Brexit wasn't their best idea. The real point, and I don't know if the Poms have thought of this, is that the EU mightn't want them back.

Unfortunately, true. And we couldn't rejoin on the same terms.

 

[swerve]

Probably true and I would bet on Tempest (Uk, Japan, Italy) over the EU project (Germany, France) for a sixth gen fighter. Italy may not want the UK back in the EU but they don’t seem to think fellow members are right for its future fast jet needs.

Italy seems happy with Sweden as a partner. I think the only reason Sweden isn't a full partner is because the Swedes have chosen not to join in fully yet.

Not being keen on partnership with France, Germany & Spain as partners for a fast jet isn't necessarily to do with the EU. Could be to do with industry. Leonardo (including its British business, of course) will lead radar development, & perhaps some other systems on a UK/Italy/Japan fast jet. Thales might not agree with that on a France/Germany/Italy/Spain aeroplane.

The EU isn't always the main factor in such decisions, or even, always, a significant factor. Not noticed how the Germans are getting pally with Israel on radars? Perhaps that's because collaboration with IAI on long-range radars is expected to make more work for Hensoldt than buying from Thales Nederland.

And so on . . . don't see the EU behind everything. It can look like an unhealthy obsession.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Italy seems happy with Sweden as a partner. I think the only reason Sweden isn't a full partner is because the Swedes have chosen not to join in fully yet.

Not being keen on partnership with France, Germany & Spain as partners for a fast jet isn't necessarily to do with the EU. Could be to do with industry. Leonardo (including its British business, of course) will lead radar development, & perhaps some other systems on a UK/Italy/Japan fast jet. Thales might not agree with that on a France/Germany/Italy/Spain aeroplane.

The EU isn't always the main factor in such decisions, or even, always, a significant factor. Not noticed how the Germans are getting pally with Israel on radars? Perhaps that's because collaboration with IAI on long-range radars is expected to make more work for Hensoldt than buying from Thales Nederland.

And so on . . . don't see the EU behind everything. It can look like an unhealthy obsession.

Absolutely true, EU sometimes has nothing to do with defence equipment, especially in very "lucrative" programs such as GCAP/SCAF and Radars, but thats actually a weakness.
The fact that national governments still own many defence companies is a disgrace that prevents true EU strategic unity and autonomy.
In many areas national govs still decide 100% indipendently from EU institutions, but thanks to the latest pieces of regulations approved ( ASAP, EDIRPA, EDF, EDPIP, etc etc ) this will hopefully be solved in the coming years.
Also the monetary policy ( some countries still have to adopt the Euro ) is another big step towards having a real federal institution controlling the money...
We are still far away but I am very confident that in the coming decade the EU will finally have a great "Unity" breakthrough.
The more EU member states are independent and sovereign, the weaker they are.
Luckily leaders started to understand that during the Covid pandemics and the current war.
And, I can speak for myself and many other former and current military fellows, federalism is real in the EU... but not strong enough yet.

 

[John Fedup]

Italy seems happy with Sweden as a partner. I think the only reason Sweden isn't a full partner is because the Swedes have chosen not to join in fully yet.

Not being keen on partnership with France, Germany & Spain as partners for a fast jet isn't necessarily to do with the EU. Could be to do with industry. Leonardo (including its British business, of course) will lead radar development, & perhaps some other systems on a UK/Italy/Japan fast jet. Thales might not agree with that on a France/Germany/Italy/Spain aeroplane.

The EU isn't always the main factor in such decisions, or even, always, a significant factor. Not noticed how the Germans are getting pally with Israel on radars? Perhaps that's because collaboration with IAI on long-range radars is expected to make more work for Hensoldt than buying from Thales Nederland.

And so on . . . don't see the EU behind everything. It can look like an unhealthy obsession.

WRT future fast jets, the EU solution is complicated by France’s need for a carrier capable jet.

 

[m4heiden]

Italy seems happy with Sweden as a partner. I think the only reason Sweden isn't a full partner is because the Swedes have chosen not to join in fully yet.

Not being keen on partnership with France, Germany & Spain as partners for a fast jet isn't necessarily to do with the EU. Could be to do with industry. Leonardo (including its British business, of course) will lead radar development, & perhaps some other systems on a UK/Italy/Japan fast jet. Thales might not agree with that on a France/Germany/Italy/Spain aeroplane.

The EU isn't always the main factor in such decisions, or even, always, a significant factor. Not noticed how the Germans are getting pally with Israel on radars? Perhaps that's because collaboration with IAI on long-range radars is expected to make more work for Hensoldt than buying from Thales Nederland.

And so on . . . don't see the EU behind everything. It can look like an unhealthy obsession.

Impressively fact free waffling.


Italy made extensive efforts to get into SCAF and is even now the party pushing for a "merger".

I mean Italian industry, think-tanks, government, media have talked non-stop about a "united european project" and continue so.

Italy was effectively left out of FCAS because it is so involved so deeply in the F-35 construct, we're talking major long-term production and maintenance roles and thus rather compromised by US defence industrial complex.

They got involved with the UK in order to keep their native aviation industry in work and to try and perhaps bring the 2 developments together later.

Like Sweden they were primarily lo keen on R&D collaboration.

They aren't actually committed to GCAP yet either, but figure this might be a good fit because Jap&UK also have F35 fleets that are also tied up long-term, with the respective carrier set up absolutely necessitating F35B operations, no alternatives.


German-Israeli defence industrial cooperation is also longstanding and deep.

Who do you think built Israels cruise-missile submarines for their nukes?


Thales and hensodt are complementary companies.

Thales provides most of germen naval systems including in the MKS 180 currently in production.

The next Frigate program thereafter is is being planned jointly with the Netherlands by the way and will replace the current AA frigates for both. Thales for sure..

Meanwhile Hensoldt is focused on cruise missile, swarm and stealth detection/neutralisation as well as forward in-theatre systems.

Hensoldt will also be leading the FCAS EW program..


None of this is classified. Why can someone who spends his time on defence boards not manage to read up on this stuff?

 

[Stuart M]

.

And so on . . . don't see the EU behind everything. It can look like an unhealthy obsession.

It's not an obsession, its simply stating the fact of the matter of what the EU is designed to do and be, as SolarisKenzo writes above, the purpose of the EU is to be a form of United States of Europe. Where its component states still have residual 'compentencies' they have an obligation to carry out those duties to the best of the abilities, but those residual powers will be subsumed by the EU in due course just as those states no longer have control of their currency, external trade, internal regulation etc or are mearly a conduit for decisions made in Brussels.

Give it fifty or sixty years, maybe less or sightly more, the nation's if Europe will not exist as independent entities. It's not a conspiracy or an obsession, it a processes that's been willingly entered into since the 1950's.

So, naturally it would be wise to veiw European, ex the UK, defence matters with this integration in mind. We can already see this intergration with PESCO an other armed forces measures. Given the length of programs, you won't be dealing with Paris or Berlin on European combat aircraft in fifty years, it will be Brussels.

 

[Meriv90]

Impressively fact free waffling.


Italy made extensive efforts to get into SCAF and is even now the party pushing for a "merger".

I mean Italian industry, think-tanks, government, media have talked non-stop about a "united european project" and continue so.

Italy was effectively left out of FCAS because it is so involved so deeply in the F-35 construct, we're talking major long-term production and maintenance roles and thus rather compromised by US defence industrial complex.

They got involved with the UK in order to keep their native aviation industry in work and to try and perhaps bring the 2 developments together later.

Like Sweden they were primarily lo keen on R&D collaboration.

They aren't actually committed to GCAP yet either, but figure this might be a good fit because Jap&UK also have F35 fleets that are also tied up long-term, with the respective carrier set up absolutely necessitating F35B operations, no alternatives.


German-Israeli defence industrial cooperation is also longstanding and deep.

Who do you think built Israels cruise-missile submarines for their nukes?


Thales and hensodt are complementary companies.

Thales provides most of germen naval systems including in the MKS 180 currently in production.

The next Frigate program thereafter is is being planned jointly with the Netherlands by the way and will replace the current AA frigates for both. Thales for sure..

Meanwhile Hensoldt is focused on cruise missile, swarm and stealth detection/neutralisation as well as forward in-theatre systems.

Hensoldt will also be leading the FCAS EW program..


None of this is classified. Why can someone who spends his time on defence boards not manage to read up on this stuff?

It hasn't anything to do with French clearly stating we arent looking for partners but for clients?

Just look how they reacted to Spain choosing Indra systems over Airbus as lead company.

And Spain has no F-35 or US industrial penetration as Italy.

The only reason the French wanted the Germans was for the funds.

Just R&D? So what were Italian plans on the next fighter since we joined GCAP after getting the door closed on our face by the french?

Please support with a source that Italy isn't full on GCAP.

Hensoldt will also be leading the FCAS EW program..

Guess who just bought 25% of Hensoldt?

Leonardo: completes the acquisition of 25.1% in HENSOLDT

www.leonardo.com

	German government (25,1%) Leonardo S.p.A. (25,1%) KKR & Co. L.P. (17,9%) DWS Group (3,14 %) free float (29 %)

Means Leonardo is going to develop both programs EW see why a possibility to merge would greatly benefit by economies of scale?

at the same time it doesn't mean that we aren't full onboard with GCAP.

 

[ngatimozart]

I actually like the idea of two seperate European future fast jet programs because it creates competition, widens the talent & manufacturing pool, and ensures that there are more than one European provider of fast jets. I can also see the French (Dassault) end up going it alone again.

 

[Meriv90]

If we had the budget from the US or economies of scale of a federated EU.

And we don't need more providers we need rationalization to compete on the global stage.

Same with the shipyards for that reason you have the EPC for example.

Look at our competitors. The US that has a gigantic defense budget because the world dollarization runs on it and thus its economy, plus it is in someway the world's biggest welfare program.

Or the Chinese that can allocate resources thanks to it not being a democracy and not having a welfare state.

Cooperating is the a long term choice(the only one), because at first yes it means you have to restructure your engine sector RR+SAFRAN, or the Radar/EW with Thales+ Leonardo, loosing jobs and economy, but the other option is risking ending up with a Rafale XL and a Typhoon Updated with just newer tech, both not competitive on a global stage.

Lesson learned with tons of examples, Ariete, Dardo, Challenger,Leclrec etc.... etc....

 

[SolarisKenzo]

I actually like the idea of two seperate European future fast jet programs because it creates competition, widens the talent & manufacturing pool, and ensures that there are more than one European provider of fast jets. I can also see the French (Dassault) end up going it alone again.

It would be a good idea if the two separate jets were made by industry consortiums, not by national consortiums.
The fact that the two programs are "country-led" is simply another stupid nationalist non-sense that divide the EU-industry.
It's not competition and doesnt lower prices.
It simply assures that politicians can get their state-industry employees votes.
Thats it.
There's nothing good about it.

 

[Stuart M]

It would be a good idea if the two separate jets were made by industry consortiums, not by national consortiums.
The fact that the two programs are "country-led" is simply another stupid nationalist non-sense that divide the EU-industry.
It's not competition and doesnt lower prices.
It simply assures that politicians can get their state-industry employees votes.
Thats it.
There's nothing good about it.

And that's the key in the EU, the old riding a bicycle analogy the EU either goes forward or it falls off. But of course, in the EU's development there is always the risk of EU nationalism, and like the US you may find that what national leaders are doing now is simply replicated by the EU.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

A good article ( but I wouldnt focus on the article itself ) on why the Polish Government is a problem for the EU and its other member states.
The nationalist, oppressive, anti-UE and very pro-american drift that took place in Poland in the last year is disturbing.

Polish government plays anti-EU, anti-German card ahead of polls - Euractiv

Poland's populist, nationalist government is increasingly taking an anti-German, anti-European Union stance in the run-up to the 15 October legislative elections in the hope of mobilising its most loyal followers, analysts say.

www.euractiv.com

The polish government is not only weakening Poland's democratic institutions, but they are a serious threat to european stability.
The mass-rearmament launched last year has very little to do with the fear of Russia and much to do with the PiS imperialistic view of Poland.
Propaganda, politic control of judiciary, rearmament... Poland's spiral of nationalism seems unstoppable.

Polish judicial reforms violate EU law, EU court rules - Euractiv

Poland’s 2019 judiciary reform infringed EU laws, with the country’s Supreme Court lacking independence and remaining under government control, the Court of Justice of the EU ruled on Monday. The ruling referred to the reform which established, among other things,...

www.euractiv.com

@SolarisKenzo

Be very careful going down this path because you are entering the politics arena which makes Moderators very twitchy and jumpy. I suggest steering well clear of it.

Ngaitmozart.

 

[Meriv90]

Lets also remember this episode 7 years ago

Polish military police raid Nato centre in Warsaw

New rightwing government moves to take control of counterintelligence centre in attempt to consolidate grip on power

www.theguardian.com

 

[Stuart M]

A good article ( but I wouldnt focus on the article itself ) on why the Polish Government is a problem for the EU and its other member states.
The nationalist, oppressive, anti-UE and very pro-american drift that took place in Poland in the last year is disturbing.

Polish government plays anti-EU, anti-German card ahead of polls - Euractiv

Poland's populist, nationalist government is increasingly taking an anti-German, anti-European Union stance in the run-up to the 15 October legislative elections in the hope of mobilising its most loyal followers, analysts say.

www.euractiv.com

The polish government is not only weakening Poland's democratic institutions, but they are a serious threat to european stability.
The mass-rearmament launched last year has very little to do with the fear of Russia and much to do with the PiS imperialistic view of Poland.
Propaganda, politic control of judiciary, rearmament... Poland's spiral of nationalism seems unstoppable.

Polish judicial reforms violate EU law, EU court rules - Euractiv

Poland’s 2019 judiciary reform infringed EU laws, with the country’s Supreme Court lacking independence and remaining under government control, the Court of Justice of the EU ruled on Monday. The ruling referred to the reform which established, among other things,...

www.euractiv.com

Not sure this is the forum for it, I'd suggest that this is, like much Tory anti-EU rhetoric pre the 2016 Brexit referendum, is not much more than propaganda designed to sure up the vote of the party faithful. So unless they plan to actually leave the EU it's probably safe to ignore. And if they do want to leave the EU, that's entirely their concern and no one else's.

 

[Meriv90]

I wouldn't ignore.
Go back to 2014.
Warning:In no way I want I'm on Russian side.

But see how the Polish took a strong lead on Euromaidan.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2014/10/16/polish-democracy-promotion-in-ukraine-pub-56907

Combine with visits from people like

John McCain tells Ukraine protesters: 'We are here to support your just cause'

Senator in Ukraine to support pro-EU protests as crowds demonstrate against president's pro-Russian stance

www.theguardian.com

Exactly as he visited Lybia and Syria before...
Add to this "Fuck EU"

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

A transcript of the alleged conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt discussing the crisis in Ukraine.

www.bbc.com

Added to the Estonian Foreign minister (I really doubt a pro-Russia country) doubts

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paetù

Polish Foreign Minister Sikorski in the Limelight in Ukraine Crisis

The Ukraine crisis has thrust Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski into the limelight as he takes a leading role in formulating Europe's response to Russian aggression. Long a star in Warsaw politics, his stature is now growing internationally.

www.spiegel.de

Nah we shouldn't Ignore in Poland we have an US agent of destabilization that worked and works efficiently.

Just in case in no way I'm justifing the military intervention (from Crimea onwards) by Russia.

 

[Stuart M]

I wouldn't ignore.
Go back to 2014.
Warning:In no way I want I'm on Russian side.

But see how the Polish took a strong lead on Euromaidan.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2014/10/16/polish-democracy-promotion-in-ukraine-pub-56907

Combine with visits from people like

John McCain tells Ukraine protesters: 'We are here to support your just cause'

Senator in Ukraine to support pro-EU protests as crowds demonstrate against president's pro-Russian stance

www.theguardian.com

Exactly as he visited Lybia and Syria before...
Add to this "Fuck EU"

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

A transcript of the alleged conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt discussing the crisis in Ukraine.

www.bbc.com

Added to the Estonian Foreign minister (I really doubt a pro-Russia country) doubts

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paetù

Polish Foreign Minister Sikorski in the Limelight in Ukraine Crisis

The Ukraine crisis has thrust Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski into the limelight as he takes a leading role in formulating Europe's response to Russian aggression. Long a star in Warsaw politics, his stature is now growing internationally.

www.spiegel.de

Nah we shouldn't Ignore in Poland we have an US agent of destabilization that worked and works efficiently.

Just in case in no way I'm justifing the military intervention (from Crimea onwards) by Russia.

Whats your point? All im seeing here is nothing more in this other than the politics as usual, politicians strutting about trying to shape the status quo to something more approaching how they want it to be.
But more pertaintly ,I'll say it again, if Poland does decide it's want to leave the EU, that's entirely their right.
If a US politician decides they need to 'fuck the EU' to serve US interests, then they will, that's how the world works, the EU is not some land of unicorns and fluffy kittens that must always be immune from the back and forth of realpolitik.
And I'll tell you another thing, EU behaves exactly as the US does, albeit via different means, it's no saint either.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Frontex expansion continues at a feverish pace despite allegations of human rights violations.
The agency's budget will grow by 7,560% over the period 2011-2027.
The militarization of the Agency also continues, which by 2027 will deploy 10,000 border guards and internal control (currently fields around 2,000).
The recruiting campaign is a first-ever for an EU body.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1689202122032660480

Criticism from NGOs and human rights organizations, but also from several ultra-nationalists parties around the EU on the speed with which Frontex is going from a small bureaucracy observation agency to an armed police force.

Fortress Europe: EU turns to military to stop new migrant crisis | The National

Troops respond to Belarus surge as fears grow of Afghan refugee influx

www.thenationalnews.com

( this is not a recent article but explains well the fellings of some ).

 

[SolarisKenzo]

STEP ( Strategic Technologies for Europe Platform ) was proposed by the EU Commission and should be approved in the next EU budget.
The regulation will introduce:
- More strong, direct and consistent EU funding for strategic enterprises
- the Sovereignty Seal, a label for european sovereign projects
- A steering board for targeting investment areas

This is the main webpage of the Platform, very interesting to look at:

Strategic Technologies for Europe Platform - European Union (STEP)

The Strategic Technologies for Europe Platform (STEP) was set up by the EU to support European Industry and boost investment in critical technologies in Europe across three sectors: digital, clean, and bio technologies.

commission.europa.eu

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1697254631573991448

Speaking of politics, the President VdL will address the Union in her annual "State of the Union" speech in 11 days from today.
This is a crucial year for European politics, on june 2024 European elections will take place and nationalist parties are very strong.