Eurofighter Rafale and Gripen v. JSF

[swerve]

The two aircraft are very similar, speed, weight, agility and avionics. Considering two people have no disagreed i'll no post solid data.

2 medium engine versus 1 big engine aircraft.

4.5 generation eurofighter versus a 3rd generation F16 with 4.5 generation avionics.

Internal fuel:
Eurofighter - 4,900kg
F16 Block 60 - 4,600kg

Empty Weight:
Eurofighter - 11,000kg
F16 Block 60- 9,100kg

Engine Thrust:
Eurofighter - 18,000kg
F16 Block 60 - 14,500kg

Maximum Take off:
Eurofighter - 23,582kg
F16 Block 60 - 23,500kg

Radar Performance:
The F16 Block 60 radar is no doubt superior to the Eurofighters, this will offset the difference in radar cross section. So both aircraft will detect each other at similar long range. The APG-80 AESA radar is a small version of the F-22's Radar. Its radar when active cannot be detected like the F-22's, thus giving the F16 a huge advantage.

Price:
Eurofighter - US 85 Million
F16 Block 60 - US 65 Million

So the latest F-16 has much longer range and is larger than most people think. The conformal tanks has really transformed the F-16 giving it nearly 50% more internal fuel. Just like the F-15E conformal tanks these are considered part of the air frame.

In the bomb trucking role the F16 can carry more weight than the Eurofighter.

1) Your oddly precise max T/O weight for the Typhoon is almost certainly underestimated. Compare thrust & wing area. Speaking of weights, where did you get those empty weights? Isn't Block 60 (aka F-16E) about 10000 kg?
2) We've been over this "the F-16 can carry more than the Eurofighter" nonsense before. Try to come up with a real load, of real stores, which will actually fit on F-16 pylons (not the sum of what they're stressed to for low-G), which is greater than what a Typhoon can lift. I doubt you can. The maximum loads for which Typhoon hardpoints are stressed to hasn't been officially released. All we have are estimates based on the stores which have either been carried, or which officials have stated can be carried.
3) Radar. Are you absolutely sure the APG-80 has a longer range than Captor? First time I've seen that said. It is AESA, which gives advantages, but the back end is no more - and probably less - sophisticated than Captor. And LPI is Low Probability of Intercept, not zero. Doesn't mean it's undetectable, means it's hard to detect. LPI techniques were around long before AESA, & Captor uses them. AESA enables further improvements: it doesn't magically make radars undetectable. BTW, the APG-80 is optimised for air-surface (though by all reports, it ain't at all bad air-air). And anyway, when CAESAR's operational ....

 

[Wild Weasel]

But the weapon system is still very similar, isn't it? The EF isn't racing the F-16, or even trying to make a gun kill against it- they both would employ very similar, and effective BVR, and WVR AAM's.

The parity of the weapons in question suggests that the engagement could very well end in a draw- and it is a fact that one of these aircraft is quite a bit less expensive than the other.

That's fairly distressing when one considers the amount of national treasure being spent on a new fighter, that is supposed to have significantly superior performance compared to a much earlier generation design.

 

[contedicavour]

All this comparing of the last of the F-16s against the very first Typhoons reminds me of when some smart politicians :sick in Italy opted for an umpteenth version of the F-104 (the S) instead of buying the F-4 because the first's cost was 30% lower while it could carry the same BVR missiles than the F-4. So basically the same anti-air capability for 30% less cost. Why bother buy the newer plane ?
Of course 25 years later when you are still stuck with a jet that is obsolete (despite good electronics and missiles) you realize how wrong the decision to go with the older plane was.
It is not acquisition cost that matters, but life cycle cost. A brand new Typhoon Batch 2 will still be flying in 30 years' time without being obsolete. I wouldn't say the same of a F-16, which in 30 years time will be a 56-year old design.......

cheers

 

[McZosch]

But the weapon system is still very similar, isn't it? The EF isn't racing the F-16, or even trying to make a gun kill against it- they both would employ very similar, and effective BVR, and WVR AAM's.

You can build the APG-80 into a F-4 Phantom, than you have also quite similar weapons systems. Makes that the F-4 a better aircraft with better all-aspect performance?
Doesn't the Meteor has a greater range due to it's ramjets?

That's fairly distressing when one considers the amount of national treasure being spent on a new fighter, that is supposed to have significantly superior performance compared to a much earlier generation design.

But the money is spent domestically. It creates several thousand highly skilled jobs. The economic balance is absolutely in favorable.

 

[swerve]

All this comparing of the last of the F-16s against the very first Typhoons reminds me of when some smart politicians :sick in Italy opted for an umpteenth version of the F-104 (the S) instead of buying the F-4 because the first's cost was 30% lower while it could carry the same BVR missiles than the F-4. So basically the same anti-air capability for 30% less cost. Why bother buy the newer plane ?
Of course 25 years later when you are still stuck with a jet that is obsolete (despite good electronics and missiles) you realize how wrong the decision to go with the older plane was.
It is not acquisition cost that matters, but life cycle cost. A brand new Typhoon Batch 2 will still be flying in 30 years' time without being obsolete. I wouldn't say the same of a F-16, which in 30 years time will be a 56-year old design.......

cheers

Exactly. The F-104S was an upgrade too far. As for F-16s - just look at the latest models! Bulges everywhere to fit all the stuff in. Can't fit a bigger antenna in the nose, which can't be made bigger without a substantial redesign & rebuild. Meanwhile, the competition all stick in AESA antennae with 50-100% more T/R modules. The F-16 can't lift any more without a new wing (wing loading's already bloody high) - by which time, you have a new plane. Etc, etc.

 

[Wild Weasel]

The point is, the F-16 could be purchased for much less and provide immediate capability, until something better becomes available.
The production model EF is still years away, it's capabilities will hardly be comparable to fifth-gen fighters, and it costs a tremendous amount of money RIGHT NOW.

 

[contedicavour]

The point is, the F-16 could be purchased for much less and provide immediate capability, until something better becomes available.
The production model EF is still years away, it's capabilities will hardly be comparable to fifth-gen fighters, and it costs a tremendous amount of money RIGHT NOW.

Sorry but I really don't get your point : the production model of EF is flying now and fully operational, although it is Batch 1. Our 4° wing in Grosseto is flying 15 Typhoons in air-to-air role with Amraams. I've read the RAF is also ready with its first wing, and I am sure the Luftwaffe is only a few months away from having the same.
As of 2008 the Batch 2 (air-to-ground as well as air-to-air) will become operational.
By the time Batch 3 arrives (2011) it will incorporate features close to gen 5.
So cheer up we are NOT wasting our money

cheers

 

[Magoo]

Combat readiness of the F-35 will be around 2013. Thats 7 years from now. Price tag on current estimates is 40 to 50 million US$. If I only count inflation (3.2 % in the US in 2005; makes 24,66 % over 7 years), it will be 50 to 62,5 million US$. That's very optimistic, because it doesn't take account on possible technical problems. So I expect the fly-away-price tag at 70-75 million US$ in 2013 for a single-engined short-range aircraft.

The US$45-$55m flyaway price of the JSF is an average non-recurring flyaway price over the life of the program in 2002 dollars, based on 2000+ F-35s being ordered. JSFs delivered in 2012 and 2013 will cost a lot more than this (est ~US$65-70m if there are no further development issues) as the development costs will be amortised into the earlier aircraft. It's probably not until aircraft 800-1000+ that the quoted price will begin to be realised. Conversely, aircraft number 2000 should in theory, be cheaper!

Magoo

 

[Magoo]

F-16E/F vs Eurofighter vs Gripen vs Rafale

Ok...I've been reading this thread for a while and it seems the one major difference between these aircraft has been left out. Integration!

The F-16E/F is, without doubt, a fine aircraft and has, along with the F-15SG and F/A-18E/F Block 2, probably seen the teen series US fighters taken out as far as they can go. Yes, it has AESA radar, advanced displays, conformal tanks, standoff weapons, IRST, and a lot of other systems, but it's still lacks an integrated avionics, weapons and sensor suite such as that on the F-22 and (promised) on the Typhoon.

Once Typhoon reaches its Tranche 2/3 standard, it will offer CEASAR (now called AMSAR?), DASS, IRST, AIS, MIDS as well as off-board sensor feeds, and present these all on a single multifunction heads down display (MHDD) for the pilot, similar to that offered by the F-22 and which will be in the F-35. Nothing else flying can do that now. While the F-16E and other jets may offer all of these capabilities, they are presented in various formats which the pilot must 'scan' and interpret, rather than on a single screen which gives him a 'god's eye view' of everything happening around him. Rafale plans to offer a similar capability, although I am not up to date on the status of this program, and Gripen has also talked about offering it on the new versions it has recently proposed for Denmark and Norway.

This level of integration is generally accepted as being what constitutes a generational difference between fighters, although I'm not prepared to get into what constitutes a 3rd gen vs 4th gen vs 5th gen jet here.

Just on a side issue here...don't underestimate the Typhoon's non-AESA CAPTOR radar. While it may not have the agile beam steering capability of the AESA sets, I understand it is one hell of an awesome sensor and has compared very favourably with the F-15C's AESA APG-63(v)2 in trials in the UK.

Magoo

 

[swerve]

Ok...I've been reading this thread for a while and it seems the one major difference between these aircraft has been left out. Integration!

The F-16E/F is, without doubt, a fine aircraft and has, along with the F-15SG and F/A-18E/F Block 2, probably seen the teen series US fighters taken out as far as they can go. Yes, it has AESA radar, advanced displays, conformal tanks, standoff weapons, IRST, and a lot of other systems, but it's still lacks an integrated avionics, weapons and sensor suite such as that on the F-22 and (promised) on the Typhoon.

Once Typhoon reaches its Tranche 2/3 standard, it will offer CEASAR (now called AMSAR?), DASS, IRST, AIS, MIDS as well as off-board sensor feeds, and present these all on a single multifunction heads down display (MHDD) for the pilot, similar to that offered by the F-22 and which will be in the F-35. Nothing else flying can do that now. While the F-16E and other jets may offer all of these capabilities, they are presented in various formats which the pilot must 'scan' and interpret, rather than on a single screen which gives him a 'god's eye view' of everything happening around him. Rafale plans to offer a similar capability, although I am not up to date on the status of this program, and Gripen has also talked about offering it on the new versions it has recently proposed for Denmark and Norway.
...

Magoo

AMSAR is a technology development project. CAESAR is a radar (CAPTOR with an AESA antenna: the radar in Tranche 2 Typhoons is ready for such an upgrade, so it's more or less plug and play), which uses the technology developed under AMSAR.

For Gripen, I believe it's linked to NORA (Not Only a RAdar), the AESA radar/sensor/EW integrated system Ericssion has been developing for some time.

 

[rjmaz1]

Comparing the F-16 Block 60 with the EF is nonsense. The EF is an air-superiority fighter with a secondary ground-attack role. F-16 is vice-versa.

The F-16 was designed and originally operated as an Lightweight day fighter with very limited ground-attack capabilities.

The Fighter bomber role was added many years after it entered service, its just as multirole as the Eurofighter

And the comparision in agility was meant as a joke, wasn't it?:lol3 Sustained 6-7g at Mach 1.5 is only matched by F-22, climb rate is much higher than F-16.

The F-16 is no doubt highly agile. It was the most agile aircraft in the world for a long time, as it was regarded as being slightly superior to the F-15. Its still right up there too, the Eurofighter has an edge but nothing to write home or laugh about.

All this comparing of the last of the F-16s against the very first Typhoons reminds me of when some smart politicians :sick in Italy opted for an umpteenth version of the F-104 (the S) instead of buying the F-4

A brand new Typhoon Batch 2 will still be flying in 30 years' time without being obsolete. I wouldn't say the same of a F-16, which in 30 years time will be a 56-year old design.......

The F4 is a completely different class aircraft to the F-104. The F-104 by its design can only be short lived with its limited fuel capacity.

The F-16 when compared to the Eurofighter they have very similar qualities. Fly by wire, lightweight high power engines. Advanced designed composite structures, advanced radar, similar weights, fuel and ranges. The F-16 design will last very well, i think the physical lifespan of the aircrafts themseleves will be the limiting factor not the design.

Not better, cheaper while still being competitive.

Spot on. Thats the point im trying to get across.

Thats why alot of countries are buying F-16's as for the money they get alot of fire power.

 

[contedicavour]

Thats why alot of countries are buying F-16's as for the money they get alot of fire power.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, after Chile and the UAE, nobody is considering anymore buying brand new F16s if there is enough budget to buy newer Typhoons, Rafales, Gripens, SU-30s, etc.
A page has been turned

cheers

 

[rjmaz1]

Hmm, after Chile and the UAE, nobody is considering anymore buying brand new F16s if there is enough budget to buy newer Typhoons, Rafales, Gripens, SU-30s, etc.
A page has been turned

The F-16 production line is still going at full speed and will be for the next two years, as it has orders to fill. Plenty of time for new orders to come up.

How many Gripen, Rafale and Su-30 aircraft are currently coming out of their manufacturing plants?

None!! It seems everyone is wanting to buy these aircarft!!! :lol2

 

[swerve]

How many Gripen, Rafale and Su-30 aircraft are currently coming out of their manufacturing plants?

None!! It seems everyone is wanting to buy these aircarft!!! :lol2

Wrong. Gripens are being built right now (JAS39C/D for the RSwAF & South Africa), as are Rafale for the French navy & air force, & Su-30 for India & China, with new orders currently being negotiated for Algeria & Venezuela. Production of Rafale & Su-30 is guaranteed past 2010.

 

[rjmaz1]

Wrong. Gripens are being built right now (JAS39C/D for the RSwAF & South Africa), as are Rafale for the French navy & air force, & Su-30 for India & China, with new orders currently being negotiated for Algeria & Venezuela. Production of Rafale & Su-30 is guaranteed past 2010.

I stand corrected.

A google search said that india and china have received all of their SU-30's and French have not started producing their last batch of Rafales. But then Google doesn't always have up to date info.

 

[swerve]

I stand corrected.

A google search said that india and china have received all of their SU-30's and French have not started producing their last batch of Rafales. But then Google doesn't always have up to date info.

I think India has received all their Russian-built Su-30s, but they're now building them in India. It's possible none are currently coming out of Russian factories, though they're building other Su-27 family variants in small numbers for the Russian air force. China - well, there are a lot of stories about what's happening with Chinese Su-30 & Su-27 production & purchases, & to be frank, I'm not sure about that. Dassault won't start building the last batch of Rafales for some time, but they're still building the 2nd of the 3 batches ordered so far - which means Typhoon production overtook the Rafale some time ago. Gripens now being built are all C/D, & A/B currently in Swedish service are scheduled to be either recycled through the factory to be turned into C/D or put up for sale.

 

[contedicavour]

I think India has received all their Russian-built Su-30s, but they're now building them in India. It's possible none are currently coming out of Russian factories, though they're building other Su-27 family variants in small numbers for the Russian air force. China - well, there are a lot of stories about what's happening with Chinese Su-30 & Su-27 production & purchases, & to be frank, I'm not sure about that. Dassault won't start building the last batch of Rafales for some time, but they're still building the 2nd of the 3 batches ordered so far - which means Typhoon production overtook the Rafale some time ago. Gripens now being built are all C/D, & A/B currently in Swedish service are scheduled to be either recycled through the factory to be turned into C/D or put up for sale.

Yep right. F16s have been beaten in several Eastern European countries by Gripen (Hungary and Czech Rep), although it had previously won in Poland. It remains to be seen who will win in Romania. Farther South, Greece has erased its option for 15 more F-16s and is now considering buying Typhoons.
Saudi Arabia just went for Typhoons, as did Austria. Some more F16s may be assembled locally in Turkey, but only to make up for attrition rates on their current numbers. Farther East, Pakistan is at last ordering F16s, though less than originally planned. India and China are in love with SU-30s, as are apparently Indonesia and Vietnam. Korea, Singapore, and Israel bought the latest F15s. In South America, other than Venezuela (who will buy Russian just to anger the US a bit more) and Chile (which took..... 10 F16s ) nobody else has money available to buy new-build jets. Brazil is more oriented towards second-hand Mirage 2000s from France, and would buy Gripen or Rafale if it had the money.
So... after this tour of the world, I see small orders for Pakistan and Chile and the somewhat larger one for Poland (48 if I remember correctly), besides the one for UAE you mentioned. The beautiful Falcon is being slowly but surely edged out of international competitions.

cheers

 

[tphuang]

I think India has received all their Russian-built Su-30s, but they're now building them in India. It's possible none are currently coming out of Russian factories, though they're building other Su-27 family variants in small numbers for the Russian air force. China - well, there are a lot of stories about what's happening with Chinese Su-30 & Su-27 production & purchases, & to be frank, I'm not sure about that. Dassault won't start building the last batch of Rafales for some time, but they're still building the 2nd of the 3 batches ordered so far - which means Typhoon production overtook the Rafale some time ago. Gripens now being built are all C/D, & A/B currently in Swedish service are scheduled to be either recycled through the factory to be turned into C/D or put up for sale.

India just sold their 18 su-30Ks and bought 18 new mki, so those are in the order books. Sukhoi definitely has work to do for a while with those and the orders of Algeria and Venezuela coming up. I'm not sure if all RMAF ones have been delivered.

 

[rattmuff]

I think India has received all their Russian-built Su-30s................................ ...........................Gripens now being built are all C/D, & A/B currently in Swedish service are scheduled to be either recycled through the factory to be turned into C/D or put up for sale.

They are going to turn 70-80 Gripen A/B to C/D. But then SwAF has a few A/B left and they are going to reduce the Gripen-force to about 100 C/D. So that leaves many aircraft for sales or the gov. have to put billions of euros just to scrap the leftovers and nobody wants that(?!).....

 

[contedicavour]

They are going to turn 70-80 Gripen A/B to C/D. But then SwAF has a few A/B left and they are going to reduce the Gripen-force to about 100 C/D. So that leaves many aircraft for sales or the gov. have to put billions of euros just to scrap the leftovers and nobody wants that(?!).....

You mean that out of 200 Gripens built, the Swedish Air Force will only keep a hundred ? that's a shame !
Although I'm sure that beyond Hungary and the Czech Republic, Romania, Poland, and even Denmark and Finland will be interested in recent second-hand Gripens. Norway probably not as we're close to selling Typhoons to them as F16MLU update.

cheers