Doubts About Royal Navy,s Cvf And T 45 Future Ships

[overlander]

1- concerning to cvf it,s true that british mod will go ahead to spend 300 milion pounds in developing the project but still is not definitive that the ships will be bult, first the delay in the project is evident from original in service dates of 2012 and 2015 we are now in 2015 and later ?? as very optimistic, later the question of the jsf delays project and i think even the mod has not very clear if built a vstol or conventional catapult carrier, they say that will be a adaptable design so in the future they can change to ctol but in my opinion i think they don,t know if they will get the money to build the carriers, from 2,9 biliion pounds budget we are now as a minimum in 4 billion, so maybe still we se the project being cancelled or being optimistic they will built only one vessel.

2- as for the t 45 project in origin they had planned 12 vessels, later they reduced to 8 and now they are only building 6 and by now no further orders are expected so as you can see the royal navy is going bo be a second division navy as italy or spain if things follow this way.

 

[mark22w]

Now there's a thought

CVF

I understand the £300m is to develop the design from assessment to development stage, actually finalising the design to the point of production. With work spread around the UK with multiple parties (10,000 jobs?) this is quite complex. The requirements for robust programme and procurement systems / management IMHO is vital – there are plenty of examples where this has not been applied as rigorously causing delay, cost blow out and systems not meeting expectations.

It is good to see the French involved at this stage and I agree there might be some slippage, however, this stage of the programme should provide realistic in service dates and a transition strategy for running down the invincible class.

With a projected in service life of 50 years the carrier needs to be adaptable assuming the F-35 in VSTOL guise remains the preferred RN option (its life being c 20 years). Should a conventional take off and landing option be required the beauty of this design is it can be accommodated. This again is demonstrated by the French interest. As to only one order I sincerely hope not, as two are required to ensure availability – indeed the reason France is looking to supplement their carrier CDG.

I watch with interest.

Type 45

I share concern that the number of hulls may be capped at 6 and read recently that BAE Systems put a proposal fwd to seek orders 7 & 8 for a reduced fee taking into account experience gained to date. Not sure where this proposal ended up but if nothing happens this year (an order) I think it becomes less likely. Anyone heard anything?

As to RN numbers declining sadly it is not unique to the UK. Of equal concern are certain NATO allies removing entire capabilities from their fleets, for example The Danes and submarines…

Interesting times eh?

 

[Sea Toby]

I think some the reasons why many navies are cutting surface and subsurface combatants are their high expense, and the lack of a major credible submarine threat against shipping. The Army shines when they are involved in Peacekeeping missions abroad, for some reason the navy doesn't shine as much. Their ships are out of sight and out of mind. It seems as if all of the navies are acquiring logistic/amphibious ships to move the army and ocean patrol vessels to protect EEZs and fisheries while at the same time freeing up warships for naval tasks.

As long as countries such as New Zealand can purchase OPVs without any major combat weapons systems for less than $50 million American dollars, and while frigates with major combat weapons systems costs in the vicinity of $300-400 million American dollars, one can see the light shining on OPVs. Modern AWD destroyers run twice as much as a general purpose frigate, whereas amphibious shipping costs half as much as a general purpose frigate.

 

[overlander]

how the RN will maintain the 2 ??? new carriers ???

i wonder how the RN will be able to build and maintain 2 cvf 65000 tonnes, 40 fighters carriers if they are unable to maintain even 2 smals 20000 tonnes carriers with less manpower, 1000 in invincibles compared with 1500 in the new ???? cvf,s, at present the only operational carrier in the RN is illustrious with ark royal in refit and invincible decommisioned. so this because i don,t believe they will build only 1 or they will make like when the cva 01 cancellation in the sisties, they will build 2 small carriers the same size as invincibles, i don,t believe they will buid 2 new 65000 tonnes carriers until i don,t see they are launched.

 

[Sea Toby]

The current Invincibles each have a crew of 1171 while the new CVF will have a crew of 1400 including air group and command staff.

The 4 Manchesters each have a crew of 269, the remaining 6 Sheffields have a crew of 253 while the 6-8 new Darings have a crew of 190, with accomodations for 235. Some of the Sheffields have already been paid off.

The four remaining Manchesters will provide more than enough crew members along with the Invincibles to crew the new Queen Elizabeth carriers, while the remaining Sheffields and the three recently discarded Norfolks will easily crew the new Darings.

I don't see the British running out of crew members to man its future fleet. Besides the new carriers, all other ship types in the future will have smaller crews.

 

[rickusn]

Quick note:

Only four Sheffield class destoyers remain with expected decommission dates:

Liverpool decom 2009
Exeter decom 2009
Southhampton decom 2010
Nottingham decom 2012

From what I understand the RN has serious problems with recruiting enough manpower to fully man all its ships. Apparently many billets are gapped now.

But Im sure they will find enough men to get by irregardless of the force structure.

 

[overlander]

anotherr step in the slow way to build the new 2 british cvf,s

britain and france signed agreement about joint development of 3 new future carriers 1 for france 2 for britain. we will see. www.mod.uk

 

[overlander]

rumours that britain will be able to built only 1 new cvf carrier

the decline of the british royal navy follows promoted by british m.o.d. (alias ministry of cuts), read this editorial by richard beedall, is interesting. www.beedall.com

 

[alexsa]

As long as countries such as New Zealand can purchase OPVs without any major combat weapons systems for less than $50 million American dollars, and while frigates with major combat weapons systems costs in the vicinity of $300-400 million American dollars, one can see the light shining on OPVs. Modern AWD destroyers run twice as much as a general purpose frigate, whereas amphibious shipping costs half as much as a general purpose frigate.

What is the problem. An OPV is a patrol vessel, why spend a lot of money making 'half arsed frigate' (excuse the expletive) when it can do it job with a 25mm and HMG and the money can be spent on building capability into the only true surface combatants the RNZN has.

I accept that 2 ANZACs are too few but it keeps capability (tactics and training) alive. Consider this, given the relationship between te RNZN and the RAN and (the fact the RAN is strapped for man power) having our cousins train on the same gear and a very close realtionship allows asset tranfer when common platforms are operated.

Honestly we could do a lot more with sharing cost of manning on common platforms.

 

[contedicavour]

i wonder how the RN will be able to build and maintain 2 cvf 65000 tonnes, 40 fighters carriers if they are unable to maintain even 2 smals 20000 tonnes carriers with less manpower, 1000 in invincibles compared with 1500 in the new ???? cvf,s, at present the only operational carrier in the RN is illustrious with ark royal in refit and invincible decommisioned. so this because i don,t believe they will build only 1 or they will make like when the cva 01 cancellation in the sisties, they will build 2 small carriers the same size as invincibles, i don,t believe they will buid 2 new 65000 tonnes carriers until i don,t see they are launched.

I agree that it may make sense to build one or 2 smaller carriers the size of the Ocean and capable of using the JSF for the smaller overseas missions.
In this case one large CVF may be enough for the major overseas missions, provided that conflicts can be expected enough time in advance to adapt the maintenance schedules and have the single CVF ready when it is needed.
In Italy our 240-metre 27,000 ton Cavour carrier can carry up to 20 JSFs plus 4 Eh-101 AEW helos. It costs us 1.5 billion USD approx.

cheers

 

[overlander]

type 45,s will be cut to only 6

in the same article in www.beedall.com it,s clear that the type 45 destroyers wich originally planned were 12, later cut to 8 and now finally only 6 will be built, as richard beedall says if things follow this way in 20 years the royal navy will be a coastal force, of 25 escorts available at the moment only 6 replacements are being built, the remaining 4 type 22 frigates have a service life until maximum 2018 and i think the british m.o.d. (alias ministry of cuts) has no plans to replace these 4 ships, so only 20 escorts will be available in 2020, it,s very clear that the french navy will be by far the most powerful in western europe with britain, italy and later spain in the second division of navies in europe but the problem is that as beedall says the royal navy will be a coastal force in medium future unless british politicians change the mind totally.

 

[contedicavour]

in the same article in www.beedall.com it,s clear that the type 45 destroyers wich originally planned were 12, later cut to 8 and now finally only 6 will be built, as richard beedall says if things follow this way in 20 years the royal navy will be a coastal force, of 25 escorts available at the moment only 6 replacements are being built, the remaining 4 type 22 frigates have a service life until maximum 2018 and i think the british m.o.d. (alias ministry of cuts) has no plans to replace these 4 ships, so only 20 escorts will be available in 2020, it,s very clear that the french navy will be by far the most powerful in western europe with britain, italy and later spain in the second division of navies in europe but the problem is that as beedall says the royal navy will be a coastal force in medium future unless british politicians change the mind totally.

UK military spending often goes from one extreme to another every 20-30 years or so. By the end of the '70s the Royal Navy was losing ships much faster than they could be replaced. The Falkland changed that. 25 years later the RN is in a similar situation, though I would argue that today's ships have a fighting power that is uncomparable vs the old ones.
As already said somewhere else on this site, a Daring is worth 3 or 4 T42s in terms of AAW capability. If by 2020 the RN replaces the remaning T22 and T23 with massively superior frigates, then losing 4 ships won't be a big deal.
In Spain the Alvaro de Bazan FFGs are light years ahead of the Santa Maria or the old Baleares. In Italy the same with FREMM vs Maestrale.
To summarize, a RN with 1 or 2 CVFs (if 1, then let's suppose 1 or 2 smaller carriers exist), 6 Darings, 20 new generation frigates, 8 Astute SSNs, plus the modern amphibious group (Ocean, the 2 Albions, etc) would still be by far Europe's most powerful navy

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

UK military spending often goes from one extreme to another every 20-30 years or so. By the end of the '70s the Royal Navy was losing ships much faster than they could be replaced. The Falkland changed that. 25 years later the RN is in a similar situation, though I would argue that today's ships have a fighting power that is uncomparable vs the old ones.
As already said somewhere else on this site, a Daring is worth 3 or 4 T42s in terms of AAW capability. If by 2020 the RN replaces the remaning T22 and T23 with massively superior frigates, then losing 4 ships won't be a big deal.
In Spain the Alvaro de Bazan FFGs are light years ahead of the Santa Maria or the old Baleares. In Italy the same with FREMM vs Maestrale.
To summarize, a RN with 1 or 2 CVFs (if 1, then let's suppose 1 or 2 smaller carriers exist), 6 Darings, 20 new generation frigates, 8 Astute SSNs, plus the modern amphibious group (Ocean, the 2 Albions, etc) would still be by far Europe's most powerful navy

cheers

I would say that RN would be slightly out of balance with only 6 Type 45. That is, if they think one AAW escort is enough for each battlegroup. I don't believe it is. Methinks they're counting on French Horizons to fill the gaps in case of crisis, so it is a matter of loss of independent capability with only 6 Darings.

 

[rickusn]

Please clue me in on how this would happen:

"Methinks they're counting on French Horizons to fill the gaps in case of crisis"

Seeing as how only two Horizons are being built for France?

 

[Jtimes2]

Six hulls means that the RN will only be able to have a maximum of two destroyers available for ops (one in long refit, one in short refit, one transiting to station and one transiting back) at any one time. Sad to think that the RN has fallen to that.

 

[contedicavour]

Please clue me in on how this would happen:

"Methinks they're counting on French Horizons to fill the gaps in case of crisis"

Seeing as how only two Horizons are being built for France?

Well if we keep cutting budgets in Europe, one day we'll have to merge assets for good in order to preserve a decent fighting force
Since the Darings are very similar to the Horizons (Sampson radar apart), the ships could operate side by side very easily.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Six hulls means that the RN will only be able to have a maximum of two destroyers available for ops (one in long refit, one in short refit, one transiting to station and one transiting back) at any one time. Sad to think that the RN has fallen to that.

One way for the RN to preserve adequate AAW would be to make sure that the new frigates replacing T22b3 and T23 around 2020 have Aster 15/30, a bit like the Italian FREMMs. A bit of a DDG in themselves, although they would lack long range air search/targeting radar. Still the EMPAR has sufficient range to guide Aster 30s on its own up to at least 100km.
In Europe we'll have to be very smart in getting the maximum out of ever decreasing hull numbers...

cheers

 

[rickusn]

GD: "Methinks they're counting on French Horizons to fill the gaps in case of crisis, so it is a matter of loss of independent capability with only 6 Darings."

Rick: "Seeing as how only two Horizons are being built for France?"

CC: "Well if we keep cutting budgets in Europe, one day we'll have to merge assets for good in order to preserve a decent fighting force.
Since the Darings are very similar to the Horizons (Sampson radar apart), the ships could operate side by side very easily."

That doesnt answer the question of how two Horizons can fill any gaps.

And "very easily" is debatable.

LOL The French will have two carriers of their own and only four AAW escorts. Two of which are obsolete now.

But they will fill in gaps for the Royal Navy?

BS

 

[Grand Danois]

Please clue me in on how this would happen:

"Methinks they're counting on French Horizons to fill the gaps in case of crisis"

Seeing as how only two Horizons are being built for France?

Well, France will also get two AAW FREMM. And they are already working along these lines. France and UK swaps destroyers for their carrier battlegroups. This is an amusing Googletranslation from Mer et Marine.

A second Franco-British air and sea group puts the course on the Indian Ocean
05/04/2006

The French frigate Surcouf installed yesterday for a three months mission in Indian Ocean. The ship is integrated into a British force deployed to fight against the illicit traffics and international terrorism (mission Aquila 06). Surcouf will sail in company of the Ilustrious aircraft carrier, the destroyer Gloucester missile launcher (Standard 42) and of the general-purpose supply craft Fort Victoria. This formation will be reinforced, at the end of May, by the nuclear submarine of Sovereign attack and the supply craft of Diligence platforms. Exercises with the marines Omani (Magic Carpet) and Indian (Konkan 06) are envisaged in May. The deployment of the French frigate “lies within the scope of the Franco-British relations aiming at strengthening the co-operation of the two navy and to improve interworking of it”, underlines the national Navy.
A British frigate, the HMS Lancaster (Standard 23), is currently integrated into the French air and sea group, present in Indian Ocean until June (mission Agapanthe 06).

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.meretmarine.com%2Farticle.cfm%3Fid%3D1479&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

But it may be too limited to look at France alone as there are a number of capable AAW ships i Europe.

 

[overlander]

heavy cuts in the british navy

in 1995 the number of british escorts was 40, now is 25, it,s clear in my opinion that only 6 type 45,s will be built and concerning to new cvf carrier after the anglo-french agreement TO built a british design platform of course brfitain will bluilt the carrier too but i am sure they will built only 1 due to budget pressure, the race in scrapping the british armed forces is continuing, cuts in the army air force and navy will follow and the problem is that the conservative opposition has the same idea as labour, furthermore in 5-8 years they have to think about to develop and built the next generation of ballistic submarines to replace the vanguard class aS the british m.o.d. (alias ministry of cuts) says that they still need a nuclear deterrent, so with the current mentality of british politicians it,s totallly impossible that they built 2 cvf they will built only 1 and thanks.

here is the list of cuts in the planned equipment for naval forces.

from planned 12 type 45 only 6 will be built

from planned 150 jsf fighters only 100 will be ordered as a maximum

plans to develop the replacements for the 4 remaining type 22 and type 23 by now cancelled

withdrawal of sea harriers

reduction in the number of escorts from 32 to 25

from planned 2 new cvf carriiers only one will be built

the only good news for the R.N. has been the improvement of amphibious capability with the 6 new lpd.s. 2 albion class and 4 bay class that together with the lph hms ocean makes britain the most capable amphibious force in western europe but in general numbers the R.N. is declining very fast.