Does Pakistan have Missile Subs?

[ultrafang]

Dose Pakistan have Missle Subs? i heard that China dose acording to Sinodefence.com. here is some info form sinodefence. Go to
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/wuhan.asp
for more pictures

Type 033G (Wuhan Class) Missile Submarine
NAME
PLA Official Designation: Type 033G
Industrial Designation: ES5G
NATO Code-name: Wuhan Class

BUILDER: Wuhan Shipyard

INVENTORY (1): 351

PROGRAMME

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/033g_2.jpg
The single unit Type 033G (Wuhan Class) is a modified Type 033 (Romeo Class) rebuilt as trials YJ-8 (C-801) anti-ship missile (SSM) platform. The design was designated as ES5G by the Chinese shiping industry.

Six missile tubes are built into the casing abreast the fin and elevate to fire much as in the Soviet Juliett Class. To provide target acquistion an additional radar mast (Snoop Tray) is mounted between two periscopes.

The six YJ-1 missiles have active radar homing to 40 km (22nm) at 0.9 mach sea-skimming and has a 165kg war head. It's also armed with 533 mm torpedoes with passive homing to 15 km at 40 knots and has warhead of 400 kg. The sub can also carry 20 mines in lieu of torpedoes.

The submarine has to surface to fire missiles, although trials are reported to include an encapsulated missile which is launched from a torpedo tube while dived. The submarine is based in North Sea Fleet and was still doing trials in 1999. Apparently there is no intention to fit this type of missile tube in other classes. The boat may not be operational now.

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/033g_3.jpg​

SPECIFICATIONS

Displacement: (Surface) 1,650 tons; (Dived) 2,100 tons
Dimensions: Length 76.6 m; Beam 6.7 m; Draft 5.2 m
Propulsion: Diesel-electric, 2 Type 37D diesels; 4,000 hp (2.94 MW); 2 motors, 2,700 hp (1.98 MW); 2 creep motors; 2 shafts
Speed: (Dived) 13 knots; (Surfaced) 15 knots; (Snorting) 10 knots
Range: 9,000 miles at 9 kt surfaced
Crew: 54 (10 officers)
Radars: Surface search, Snoop Plate or Snoop Tray, I-band
Sonars: Hercules or Tamir-5; Bow-mounted; active/passive search and attack, high frequency; Thomson Sintra DUUX 5 intercept in some of the class
Missile: Six YJ-8 (C-801) anti-ship missiles. Three launchers each side of fin. Inertial cruise, active radar homing to 40 km at 0.9 Mach, 165 kg warhead, sea skimmer
Mines: 28 in torpedo tubes
Torpedoes: Eight (6 bow, 2 stern) 533 mm tubes; Yu-4 (SAET-60) passive homing to 15 km at 40 kt; warhead 400 kg; Yu-1 (Type 53-51), to 9.2 km at 39 kt or 3.7 km at 51 kt; warhead 400 kg

 

[mysterious]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

No, I dont think PN has any such Subs as yet but I think I've heard that the Agosta 90B Subs have room for that modification. I'm sure Gary could shed some light on this cuz if they dont have that room for such modification, I'm sure that PN would try getting hold of a couple of them keeping in line with its policy of minimum deterrance and IN acquisitions.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

This thing needs to surface in order to launch the ASMs, not a very successful design. Modern subs have the ability to launch crusie missiles via their torp tubes or vertical launch tubes.

btw, Gary won't be back until the 15th. If you got questions you can consult highsea.

 

[adsH]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

the Augusta 90b are capable of Firing Latest block 12 Exorcist Missile while its Submerged , with slight modification to the Fire control the Torpedo tubes can launch cruise missiles too.

Does no one read all the Details I post about all these vessels, I ve posted detailed Articles in the Naval section about the Augusta's capability.

 

[dcvergara]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

guys, could you give me detailed differences (ie. roles each of them are into) between a frigate, a cruiser, a destroyer and others that comprise a carrier battle group.thanks.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

guys, could you give me detailed differences (ie. roles each of them are into) between a frigate, a cruiser, a destroyer and others that comprise a carrier battle group.thanks.

Please avoid starting different topics within an existing thread.

In this case, rerfer to:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3430

You can enhance that particular thread as it is within the spirit of your question. (naturally)

 

[Elite Brain]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

The Agosta 90B in Pakistan's Navy might not be equipped to fire missiles.Although according to defense officials it is looking at the French Turquoise Class subs with AIP. These would be in the class of the Collins class subs of the Australian Navy.A recent news article suggests that Pakistan will continue the Agosta-B project ,building a total of 6 boats of this class.

 

[adsH]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

SSK AGOSTA 90B CLASS ATTACK SUBMARINE, FRANCE

The Agosta submarines designed by DCN of France, are currently in service with the French, Spanish and Pakistan navies. The Agosta 90B is an improved version featuring higher performance and a new combat system. The new submarine features a higher level of automation, which has resulted in the ship's crew being reduced from 54 to 36. Other improvements include a new battery for increased range, a deeper diving capability of 350m resulting from the use of new materials including HLES 80 steel, and a reduced acoustic signature through the installation of new suspension and isolation systems.

Three Agosta 90Bs were ordered by the Pakistan Navy in September 1994. The first, Khalid (S137), was built at DCN's Cherbourg yard and was commissioned in 1999. The second, Saad, assembled at Karachi Naval Dockyard, was launched in August 2002 and commissioned in December 2003. The third, Hamza, which is being constructed and assembled in Karachi, is scheduled to commission by the end of 2004. Work on the vessel was halted following a terrorist attack in May 2002, which killed 11 French engineers in Karachi, but has since restarted. The third submarine is being fitted with the MESMA air independent propulsion system, which will be retrofitted to the first two. The MESMA AIP has successfully completed Pakistan Navy acceptance trials.

Pakistan has been given a license by DCN to offer commercial production of the submarines to potential customers.

SUBTICS COMMAND AND CONTROL SYSTEM

The Agosta 90B submarines are equipped with a SUBTICS fully integrated combat system. This is supplied by UDS International, a joint subsidiary of DCN International and Thales (formerly Thomson-CSF). SUBTICS processes signals from the submarine's sensors, determines the tactical situation by track association, fusion, synthesis, trajectory plotting and management and handles all weapon command and control functions.

TORPEDOES

The Agosta 90B submarine is fitted with four bow 533mm torpedo tubes (ADSH add inn: size required for a Cruise Missile launch) and has the capacity to carry a mixed load of up to 16 torpedoes and missiles. The submarine can be equipped with the ECAN F17 Mod 2 torpedo, which is a wire-guided torpedo with active and passive homing to a range of 20km. The torpedo delivers a 250kg warhead to a depth of 600m.

MBDA EXOCET SM39 MISSILES

The Agosta 90B is equipped with the torpedo tube launched MBDA (formerly EADS Aerospatiale) Exocet SM39 missile. Target range and bearing data is downloaded into the Exocet's computer. The missile approaches the target area in sea-skimming mode using inertial navigation and then active radar homing. The missile approaches the target at speeds over Mach 0.9 and range is 50km. Exocet has a 165kg high-explosive shaped charge warhead.

ELECTRONIC WARFARE

The Agosta 90B submarines are equipped with the Thales DR-3000U radar warning receiver, operating in D to K bands. The system uses a masthead antenna array with omnidirectional and monopulse directional antennae and a separate periscope warning antenna.

SENSOR SUITE

The submarine is fitted with a Thales Underwater Systems (formerly Thomson Marconi Sonar) TSM 223 sonar suite, which includes bow-mounted sonar and towed sonar arrays, SAGEM periscopes and navigation system and Thales I-band navigation radar.

PROPULSION SYSTEMS

The Agosta 90B class submarines can be equipped with a diesel-electric propulsion system or the MESMA air-independent propulsion system. The diesel-electric system consists of two SEMT-Pielstick 16 PA4 V 185 VG diesels providing 3,600hp and a 2200kW electric motor driving a single propeller..

A diesel-electrical submarine has to surface to periscope depth to recharge the batteries using the diesel engine, leading to increased risk of detection. The MESMA air-independent propulsion system, being fitted to the Agosta 90B submarines for Pakistan, allows the submarine to remain submerged three times longer. The MESMA system consists essentially of a turbine receiving high-pressure steam from a combustion chamber, burning a gaseous mixture of ethanol and liquid oxygen. The Agosta 90B's performance remains the same in all other respects, except that the length increases from 67m to 76m and submerged displacement from 1,760t to 2,050t.


http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/agosta/

 

[Elite Brain]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

Thanks Adsh, i had all the specs. I was under the impression the "Missiles" meant Cruise Missiles like Israel's Dolphin submarines. All modern subs can carry anti-ship missiles like the SM39, but few can carry cruise missiles like the tomahawk.

 

[adsH]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

Thanks Adsh, i had all the specs. I was under the impression the "Missiles" meant Cruise Missiles like Israel's Dolphin submarines. All modern subs can carry anti-ship missiles like the SM39, but few can carry cruise missiles like the tomahawk.

the Augusta can launch a Sub modified Cruise Missile, A simple Software upgrade would be required to the Fire Control Systems. it has the Minimum Tube width

 

[Elite Brain]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

the Augusta can launch a Sub modified Cruise Missile, A simple Software upgrade would be required to the Fire Control Systems. it has the Minimum Tube width

So other than the Non-US subs, which submarines can carry Ballistic missiles?
The Triomphant ,Akula ,Vanguard and the Delta lV are the French,British and Russian Ballistic missile carrying submarines but are any of the German or Swedish boats capable of carrying them?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

So other than the Non-US subs, which submarines can carry Ballistic missiles?
The Triomphant ,Akula ,Vanguard and the Delta lV are the French,British and Russian Ballistic missile carrying submarines but are any of the German or Swedish boats capable of carrying them?

No, the closest hulls to being able to carry BM's would be the Collins and Oyashio's. They would require plugs and even then the forest would be a bit small and probably not justify the effort.

There are extensive energy demands for the sub at that kind of combat level.
There are also issues of internal capacity, balancing, and pracrticality. Even latter concepts like the SSGT are not ballistic and they are conceptual 4000 tonners.


Realistically you'd be looking at a sub of circa 7000t minimum.

 

[highsea]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

The Triomphant ,Akula ,Vanguard and the Delta lV are the French,British and Russian Ballistic missile carrying submarines ...

I think you mean Typhoon, not Akula. Akula is an SSN. Other than those you mentioned, the only other SSBN's are the Ohio class, and the PLAN's single Xia class (092) and the new 094 (which has no missiles yet).

 

[Red aRRow]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

the Augusta can launch a Sub modified Cruise Missile, A simple Software upgrade would be required to the Fire Control Systems. it has the Minimum Tube width

Haven't the Pakistani Augostas been modified to launch the Harpoon AShM too?? I think I read about it somewhere.

 

[mysterious]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

Yup, I second that statement Red Arrow. I've come across that info on numerous occasions myself.

 

[webmaster]

Re: Dose Pakistan have Missile Subs?

That was Israel which was suspected of modifying Harpoon Missiles for Dolphin class subs to launch a nuclear strike. It was widely reported but no body knows for sure if they really did.

For a different topic, different thread; here are some links:

http://www.cdi.org/news/nuclear/nuclear-arsenals.pdf <search CTRL+F for Harpoon

harpoon missile story:
http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2003_11/Israel.asp?print

Israel Has Sub-Based Atomic Arms Capability

And the denial:

Harpoon missile story said politically motivated

 

[gf0012-aust]

That was Israel which was suspected of modifying Harpoon Missiles for Dolphin class subs to launch a nuclear strike. It was widely reported but no body knows for sure if they really did.

For a different topic, different thread; here are some links:

http://www.cdi.org/news/nuclear/nuclear-arsenals.pdf <search CTRL+F for Harpoon

harpoon missile story:
http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2003_11/Israel.asp?print

Israel Has Sub-Based Atomic Arms Capability

And the denial:

Harpoon missile story said politically motivated

Israel were never developing an N tipped Harpoon, they were tip testing SLACM ER Popeyes. The unsubstantiated rumour is whether they had N tipped the Popeye. The assumption is that they have as they have the R&D, miniaturisation and technical capability to do so. (The Popeye is bigger in diameter than some of the Air Launched N tips, so it's a no brainer for them)

 

[Salman78]

ofcourse pakistan does. what do u think that white cylendrical lookin thing PN fires from the sea.. lol..

 

[Red aRRow]

No, it's not about Israel or anything. Pakistani Agostas can fire both the Harpoon and the Exocet from their torpedo tubes while being submerged.

however at the risk of derailing the discussion... do you guys think that the Exocet is still any threat to anyone. I mean its speed is 0.9 mach I don't think it is something any CIWS cannot handle....IMHO it's effectiveness is quite low on the scale. Any inputs??

 

[ajay_ijn]

however at the risk of derailing the discussion... do you guys think that the Exocet is still any threat to anyone. I mean its speed is 0.9 mach I don't think it is something any CIWS cannot handle....IMHO it's effectiveness is quite low on the scale. Any inputs??

Exocet???
For me it is the symbol of an Anti-Shipping Missile.Its on par with the performance of Russian Anti-Ship Missiles.
However Its short range will be one of its limitations.Subs have to come very close to launch the Missiles.
Layered defence can tackle it.
However latest versions with improved Guidance and Range will perform Better.