Defences against supersonic anti ship missiles

[tphuang]

That depends very much on the gun, I think. The current generation of gun CIWS like Phalanx and Goalkeeper only have an effective range of about 1.5 km, which gives them very little time to shoot down an incoming supersonic. Even if they hit it, the momentum might mean that the missile wreck ploughs into the ship. The 35mm Millennium ought to do a bit better than that for range, but it doesn't hit as hard.

The 76mm OTO firing DART guided anti-missile ammo is a possibility for the future because it will have a much longer range, although I would like to see it demonstrated first...

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website

actually if you read what I wrote. I wasn't dismissing gun based CIWS, i'm dismissing purely missile based CIWS. It seems like there is a move now for gun based CIWS like 76 mm, 57 mm. And from what I know, PLAN's next generation CIWS is going to be improved 30 mm rather than a missile based system.

 

[Firn]

Exactly so. It would be a considerable achievement in the performance of both the guidance system and the proximity fuze to be able to destroy a tough and possibly supersonic anti-ship missile, given the necessarily small HE content of the "Dart" projectile and the closing speed of 1,500-2,000 metres per second.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website

I'm not an expert on the dynamics of an explosion, so I might ask. If we assume a closing speed of the Dardo of roughly 1500 m/s and one of 500 m/s for the directly approaching missile then we have with roughly 2000 m/s quite some relative speed. Now on top of that comes the acceleration of the explosion. More or less how high would the initial relative speed of the pellets to the target be, when the PF explodes the charge at the edge of a 30° cone seen from the approaching missile?

 

[Feanor]

What do you guys think of combined gun-missile systems?

 

[Alatien]

What do you guys think of combined gun-missile systems?

A good example is Russian Kashtan CIWS. It combines 2 x 30mm gatling guns with 4 ready to fire missiles (24 in reload magazine). At the moment it is probaby the most versitile and powerful system. It can engage up to 6 missiles travelling at Mach 3 with 96% kill probability.

Few more details from wikipedia:

The effective range of the missiles is 1,500–10,000 meters up to an altitude of 6,000 m. The engagement range of the guns is 500–4,000 m, up to an altitude of 3,000 m. The guns have a combined rate of fire around 10,000 rpm, and the reloading time for a group of 4 missiles is 90 seconds.

An improvement to Kashtan is Palma, which also has 2x30mm and 4 missiles, and uses optical guidance as primary (radar is backup), and therefore can't be jammed. It can also intercept missiles traveling at Mach 4 and at altitudes of 2m (very sea skimming).

A different approach is taken by Raytheon . They manufacture both Phalanx and RAM (SeaRAM), and the two systems can be mounted easily on the same ship (two separate mounts), and linked so they cooperate. This gives bit more flexibility in installation and operation, but Phalanx is a bit aged, and 20mm has range/impact limitations.

If I had to guess I would say that Kashtan/Palma have an edge over Phalanx+RAM, but it is only an intuitive selection. The test data is not widely available for comparison.

 

[Firn]

A good example is Russian Kashtan CIWS. It combines 2 x 30mm gatling guns with 4 ready to fire missiles (24 in reload magazine). At the moment it is probaby the most versitile and powerful system. It can engage up to 6 missiles travelling at Mach 3 with 96% kill probability.

Few more details from wikipedia:


An improvement to Kashtan is Palma, which also has 2x30mm and 4 missiles, and uses optical guidance as primary (radar is backup), and therefore can't be jammed. It can also intercept missiles traveling at Mach 4 and at altitudes of 2m (very sea skimming).

A different approach is taken by Raytheon . They manufacture both Phalanx and RAM (SeaRAM), and the two systems can be mounted easily on the same ship (two separate mounts), and linked so they cooperate. This gives bit more flexibility in installation and operation, but Phalanx is a bit aged, and 20mm has range/impact limitations.

If I had to guess I would say that Kashtan/Palma have an edge over Phalanx+RAM, but it is only an intuitive selection. The test data is not widely available for comparison.

As Alatien said they certainly have their place in a specific layer of the "onion" protecting a ship. As point defense weapon they can find both a role on smaller and larger vessel. Once again it is very difficult to compare the effectivness of a certain combination, as many subsystems (launcher, sensors) have to work in conjunction with a far wider one (C4ISR of the ship) and in concert with other assets (AEW&C aricraft, combat aircraft, drones, other ships...).

Personally I think that they are an attractive solution for smaller ships - construction permitting - and possibly for larger ones in the faces of a high threat by anti-ship missiles.

 

[GI-Gizmo]

Supersonic anti-ship missiles and defenses...

I think the threat of supersonic anti-ship missiles needs to be taken more
seriously. China is investing in ballistic missiles capable of striking US carriers far out in the Pacific, Brahmos technology is bound to show up in enemy hands soon, the newer generation of anti-ship missiles are very effective. They are hard to detect and defend against, if multiple missile
barrages were fired at a carrier a few are bound to get through our defenses. A combination of different types of anti-missile missiles, phalanx type weaponary, good situational awareness and development of maturing
directed high energy and laser weapons will be our defenses in the near future. Ofcourse, taking out the missiles in the initial launch phase or on the ground will also be part of the defensive strategy to protect naval assets.
Electronic jamming will also be a big part of confusing enemy missiles.