Defence Technology in South East Asia

[Ananda]

I just want to bring some truth

And what's the truth you're trying to bring Ahmad ?

You're resurrecting this thread by commenting David's close to 4 years old post, and pointing out Indonesian Defense Industry is not less advanced from Singapore's one based on what their designing and build.

We (including me) try to tell you that an advance status of one industries is not depend on what you can build and engineered..but also what you can manufactured and sell to the market efficiently. You're basing all your arguments mostly on IPTN, and I tell You IPTN/DI/IAe still has a lot of weaknesses..Yes it had progressing, but it's still has some major weaknesses to be taking care..IPTN/DI still can't be call a successful and advance Aerospace Industry yet..EADS does make DI as partners on sourcing some of their parts, so does they done with Malaysian Industry. Yes in Part because EADS did see the potential of DI as parts suppliers, however also it's a good business since they can see advantage on costs factors. Also they can see by maintaining good relations with DI, also strengthen their relations with Indonesian Government.

Again, an advance status of Industry simply not depend on what they can engineered. Just an example,Jaguar engineered much batter car than Tata Motors..However Tata manage to acquired Jaguar. Which are more 'advance' in term of Industrial strength ? Tata or Jaguar ?

However if you like to put what you can build..well let's see ST Marine already made Frigates..PAL is just trying to begin building Frigates..ST already build IFV and APC for nearly a decade. Pindad only begin to build APC for couple of years back..Pindad already licensed some of ST weapons design..Does ST licensed any Pindad design ? ST already build 155mm gun based on 80's-90's technology (which TNI also used), Pindad 105 mm gun (licensed from Oto) is based on 50's technology..

Again..comparing what you can engineered..and what other can engineered is just a small part on determining the advancement of your Industry. Management skills sometimes makes bigger part on determining advancement of one Industry.

As Indonesian, I've to admit at this moment ST as overall defense Industries is more advance than Indonesian Defense Industry complex. Can Indonesian defense Industry catch-up ? Off course it can, but it will take much more investment in Infrastructure, Soft Skill, Managerial, and R&D (Btw, the overall State owned defense industry R&D Investment still far below ST's one)..and That's the Truth.

 

[Ananda]

This is one example why management capability sometime more important than just engineering skill and capability on developing advancement on one defense industry (or any industry for that matter).

Nipress Kembangkan Aki untuk Tank dan Pesawat — KOMPAS Otomotif

The managerial skill from defense circle to try gathering resources outside what considered traditional defense industry is important to developed the overal defense industry as the whole. Habibie in the 90's is too much concern on the engineering prowness, that he forgot that the skill to manage right sourcing of materials and parts domestically and effectively is much more important for sustain development.

Industry in Indonesia has potential for sourcing the defense industry development, however many in defense circle before seems not really in to it. The defense Industry for much of development considered to be the area for state owned strategic industries. However just the article show, getting involvement outside traditional state industries can be important step on developing sustain defense industry. NS bateries for example as article said has capacity and know how on developing bateries for defense equipment. However until few years back, the defense circle seems did not want to see this, and considering their capabilities is for commercial automotive sector only. Guess what, bateries is bateries, whether you use it on your car, or for helicopters or submarine.

So only see the advancement of defense industries with what defense equipment you are capable to engineered, is really like looking on the icing of a cake.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

As Indonesian, I've to admit at this moment ST as overall defense Industries is more advance than Indonesian Defense Industry complex. Can Indonesian defense Industry catch-up ? Off course it can, but it will take much more investment in Infrastructure, Soft Skill, Managerial, and R&D (Btw, the overall State owned defense industry R&D Investment still far below ST's one)..and That's the Truth.

Agreed. I am an Indonesian too. What the point Ahmad missing is something called as research and development. Developing industry or even a nation in general all started from education. And where is our education now? ITB is a good university for Indonesian standard but of course not a match for NUS or NTU which could afford the best professors from all over the world and can facilitate various science and technology researches. You can find in google scholars to compare them. They also provide Singapore with world class engineers. Not to forget that recently Singapore also provide scholarships for the best high school graduates from ASEAN. Undoubtedly they are in the process of collecting the best brains in Southeast Asia. Great reseaches help in resulting in better innovation. Innovationwise, I think we Indonesian should admit that Singaporean products have greater added value than Indonesian products.

Do not forget, one of the reasons we were focusing on aircraft industry was because Habibie is an aircraft engineer. He used the motto starting from the end and ending from the start. That`s why the first activity performed was assembling (NC-212), then joint design (CN-235), and the last full design and manufacturing (N-250 and N-2130) which was failed. Habibie also dreamed about developing indigenous engine (PT Nusantara Turbin Propulsi if I am not wrong). And now since the failure of independent production stage, PTDI is actually stuck at assembling, with some effort to revive into joint production through KF-X. Most the components and materials used are actually imported. Until now, Indonesia still cannot make even a 100 cc engine for motorcycle (

Not only military industry, actually all industry in Indonesia is not supported by strong component industry. Further it is also not supported by strong research. Indonesia only allocated 0.07% of GDP for research and development-probably one of the lowest in the world, and Indonesia`s steel output annually is lower than Malaysia and Thailand. So Ahmad comment based solely on Krakatau Steel is too shallow.

Indonesia prefer to spend billions of dollars for fuel, corrupt politicians during elections and for religion, because it is more popular to gain vote from generally less educated people.

 

[Ananda]

Until now, Indonesia still cannot make even a 100 cc engine

Just to make clear on that, actually Honda and Suzuki motorcycle that being manufactured in Indonesia has more than 90% local contant (some product even close to 100%). The engine for Avanza/Xenia small MPV actually build in Daihatsu facility in Indonesia. So does much of the Toyota Inova engine.

However if you refer to local company, yes no local compsny has engine manufacturing capacity. Texmaco engineering has the capacity for diesel engine manufacturing (up to 300+ bhp), which their facility bought from Austria in the 90's. However due to the collapse of Texmaco engineering in tbe Asian Crisis due to financial over leverage, the facility from what I heard now stand rusting.

Your right on the level of R&D of local company. Parts manufacturing now much improved due to influx of Automotive Investment especially from Toyota Group and recently Nissan. They bring their suppliers to invest on facility in Indonedia in supporting their own manufacture facility here. Still mostly done by Japanese big name, thus the local suppliers including the JV with Japanese partners mostly build on the design sent from Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc.

The bateries company in the Kompas article based their business also supporting Japanese manufacture. However begin to branching out on their own. This not much in Indonesia particularly since not much initiative coming outside Japanese principal. That's what I called lacked managerial innitiative from local companies especialy state owned companies in preparing local origin products.

Changes begin to happen, hope this not just talked and beginning effort on sustainability of local origin manufacturers.

 

[Ahmad]

@Gadjah Mada

I do agree on some of your argument on this thing, even though you also have to understand that most of the high tech research in Indonesia is conducted by BPPT and LAPAN ,which are not defence companies at all, but the research are really passing through our state owned defense companies. For instant, in designing N 219, some parts and engineering process are done and helped by both LAPAN infrastructure and engineers. It was also happening in our UAV that will be mass produced by IPTN this year.

I dont know whether you are actual engineers or not, but actually in term of bachelor graduates, I dont think that our graduates are lacking, you have to talk to some engineers that are graduated in Indonesia and working overseas to understand about this. Even, many UI graduates can work directly in US as engineer, even though they are actually fresh graduates ( real experiences in telecommunication sectors).

And in term of Phd level, we sent many of our engineers to Germany and Japan. I think remote sensing development in Japan is helped by Indonesians. And the biggest UAV ever built in Asia is actually made by Indonesian engineers team in Japan remote sensing research centre (I forget the university)

In PLN for instand, you will understand that many consultants from foreign countries that help PLN engineers are actually not better than our engineers, they are just more confident because their English is much better during the meeting session.

In some field, maybe Singapore is more advance, but in some other fields dont. And in defense industry sector, this is also the evidence. PAL and PINDAD are less developed than ST, maybe right, but the lacking in our side is not to big at those particular product. Within 5 years from now, I believe we can match or even exceed them, since the defence industry progress is also tied into the budget on the military and our budget is quite ambitious until 2019 (along with our new military procurement regulation that favors domestic defense industry). And if you notice what we are going to produce within 5 years from now, including submarine, medium tank, and missile (the missile (RX-420 based) test in this year 2013, along with RX-520 test ). And those ambitious plan are backed and rationalized by our economy progress so far.

Talking about the other field, like in aerospace (including plane, remote sensing, satellite, and rocket/missile development) we are much more advanced. But I do agree that much more money still should be put to make sure our fast progress in this particular field.

And talking about N-250, it is not failed, the design is there already, and the plane has so far taken 200 hour flight tes already. The plan is to use N-250 as a base for making N-270, and the prototype, based on our ministry words, will be launched in 2017, after the lauch of N-219 and N-235 NG protitype, respectively in 2014, and 2015.

And for sure N-213 is not failed either, as we have already made the final design of that plane (we almost sell the design to China to feed IPTN finacial bleeding in the beginning of 2000) , we just need more money to start manufacturing process that maybe will be around 1 year to complete. But this process will not be started until its feasibility in term of its economical can be really justified. And of course, we have to focus first on several project that hasnt been completed yet

I do agree that we have to help many of our entrepreneurs there who are trying to make more components to feed our market demand as @ Ananda mentioned earlier. In this regard, based on @Ananda concern, I hope our defense industry CEO would go to the tender process and really prioritize our local supplier (maybe with some help financially), just like Jokowi "blusukan" approach maybe .

And in term of Krakatau Steel data that you mentioned before, I am sure that the out put will be double (if I am not mistaken) in 2014 as a big new steel factory (joint with POSCO) will be operated next year (starting around June the factory is completed already, but still needs another 5-6 months for heating process.)
Yupe, for fuel subsidy, I think we have taken better policy now, and gradually I think that it will not be in our budget anymore, as politicians and people are becoming wiser on this issue (seeing what happened in our recent fuel hike moment).

But even though mostly our people are less educated (event though has much better litteracy rate compare to India and event China( around 90 percents ), we are still much much better crowd than Egyptian that can not even hold in their own first phase democracy.

And our democracy is actually the best and much more vibrant among South East Asia countries (including Singapore), and this can not be debated anymore since the proof is already there. But, of course, the process in our democracy still needs more efforts to get better. And interm of eradicating corruption, I think we are making progress with KPK. And KPK is actually working, so they are so many politicians that can be jailed, and it is a positive sign.

I dont know how old are you ? But I am young person, and I am so optimistic about our beloved Indonesia. Old Indonesian guy are usually less optimistic and less confident either (subconsciousness problem I think .

 

[Bonza]

You're young? Never... anyway your overbearing need to turn this into a pissing contest has been noted, and it is by this that you shall be judged.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

I dont know whether you are actual engineers or not, but actually in term of bachelor graduates, I dont think that our graduates are lacking, you have to talk to some engineers that are graduated in Indonesia and working overseas to understand about this. Even, many UI graduates can work directly in US as engineer, even though they are actually fresh graduates ( real experiences in telecommunication sectors).

And in term of Phd level, we sent many of our engineers to Germany and Japan. I think remote sensing development in Japan is helped by Indonesians. And the biggest UAV ever built in Asia is actually made by Indonesian engineers team in Japan remote sensing research centre (I forget the university).

Just for your information Ahmad, I am currently working as a researcher in one of government institution, and fortunately I am currently enrolled in PhD course in the very same University in Japan you mentioned. I do know Professor Josaphat Tetuko Sri Sumatyo ( if he is the person you mean) in person. However unfortunately he seems does not share the very same optimism as you. He does not optimistic not only about our scientific development but also for our country as a whole. He even said to me may be one day our country will be ended like Sudan or Afghanistan, and he said that the events in our country are showing that possibility. Some Indonesians sometimes overstated how a country as advance as Japan is very dependent on this one guy, which is himself as a humble man would not dare to do this claim ) He just became a full professor few months ago )
He also complained about how bad Indonesian scientific research and development managed, as his reasons to leave Indonesia years ago. And I can say that the UAV you mean is not that big (the UAV was made manually by some of former PTDI employees-it was very lucky Prof. Josaphat gave them a project from Japan so they have a job), and absolutely no comparison with Chinese UAV in development.

When you talk about engineer as bachelor degree, it shows how you do not have enough understanding about what is fundamental sciences and applied sciences/enginering. Habibie is an engineer because he was educated in engineering not in fundamental science such as theoretical physics. You should not think just because he hold Dr-Ing from Aachen, he will become a scientist (which is a common mistakes in Indonesia to call him "our great scientist"). You can ask information from LIPI or BPPT to understand what is the differences between the two majors which is the easiest way to explain the role of the two institutions.

Just because some UI graduates can work directly in the US, it does not mean that Indonesian university graduates standard are well accepted world wide as professional engineers. It is more related to the individual effort than standard produced by an institution. ITS Surabaya naval architects were passed world standard until 1995, but now not anymore. Indonesian universities rank in term of research are below Singapore, Thailand and Malaysia. Vietnam could surpass Indonesia soon enough considering how ambitious the are supported by more and more students taking course abroad (they have four times students in the US and twice in Japan compared to Indonesian-and most of them in science and technology area). While India indeed has more illiterate people than Indonesia or any country in the world the have produced many Nobel laureates. About China, you should read more the Human Development Index and University Index to understand that they now above Indonesia in almost every aspects. Your failure to notice this thing is an irony. While both countries have some world class universities, Indonesia do not. A rank of more than 300, with very little patent application and world class scientific publications is not world class ( Universities like Tsing Hua or IIT are no match for any Indonesian universities.

Ahmad, being an optimistic is good, but you should understand the problem in order to solve it.

@Ananda: I agree that some engine are assembled in Indonesia, but not actually made from scratch. No Indonesians actually have access to any research and development in Japanese car manufacturers in Indonesia. Assembly is not making, and share very little in production cost. Japan needed decades to match US and European standard in material sciences, and China surely will need more. But they have massive investments on this thing. Indonesia do not invest at all. Habibie knew this, and he developed MIDC (Metal Industry Development Centre) in Bandung, with so many imported researchers from Germany and Austria in the 90s, however now with lack of funding the centre has been in a very bad shape, probably one day will be closed. Indonesia do not have enough industry which support engine development. To develop good knowledge in material sciences which is basically fundamental to all industries, we need time, fund, and effort. We have none of them. From friend who is working at Bluescope (Australian steel company which wanted to buy Krakatau Steel a few years ago), I got information about how bad their standard in steel production that if Bluescope bought it, they had to reshape it completely.

About the foreign engineers? Since I am currently studying abroad, I just found that one of the motivation they send their young and inexperienced engineers abroad is to give them experience and self confidence. That`s why in Japanese loan such as JICA they demand the involvement of Japanese workers. Developing countries dependent on loan like Indonesia or the Phillipines usually got the least experienced engineers, while they will send their best engineers to learn from other developed nations such US or European countries. In some cases these Japanese young engineers even got valuable knowledge from their Indonesian counterparts. But what can we say, we need their money (

I have tried so hard to be optimistic, but if you see the problems and how we as a country managed it, it even becomes much harder (

 

[Gadjah Mada]

And for sure N-213 is not failed either, as we have already made the final design of that plane (we almost sell the design to China to feed IPTN finacial bleeding in the beginning of 2000) , we just need more money to start manufacturing process that maybe will be around 1 year to complete. But this process will not be started until its feasibility in term of its economical can be really justified. And of course, we have to focus first on several project that hasnt been completed yet .

Ahmad, I went to PTDI in 2006, I found mostly rusty empty spaces left by their best engineers who looked for jobs abroad. Most the facilities left were dissolved because nobody understand how to operate them. Most of their labs which were considered the best in Indonesia at a time were left without nothing, no instruments no engineers, only empty spaces. To restart the N-250 again not only money required, but to replace those engineers educated overseas for years, and to buy new research and production facilities. Yup, I am talking about time, and it is difficult to buy time. What Habibie did for decades had been lost for only a very short time. Without N-213 or KF-X comes into fruition, actually no PTDI personnel would have experience in design and developing an aircraft apart from assembling. Most who involved in CN-235 or N-250 have been either found a job abroad or sacked.

 

[Bonza]

Thank you to all the members in here who have given their time to provide much-needed context to the discussion, it was both informative and comprehensive. The mod team much appreciates that in situations such as this there are forum members willing to step up to add so much value.

 

[Ananda]

@ Gadjah Mada, thanks for your insight on the Scientific and Research environment in Indonesia. As I have mentioned in my previous post, I'm coming from Financial Industry. I know the comment of Indonesia having risk turn to Afghanistan or Sudan conditions shared by many researchers. However as Financial guy I can tell you chances for us turning on that situations small, however unfortunately we also have simmilar chances that turning to be advanced industrial nation if the situations still like this.

As I mentioned before we need much more investment on infrastucture, soft skill, managerial and R&D for moving to next stage. Our risk is not going downward, but stuck in the middle. We have enough based to build industrial strength, but we do not have enough based and momentum to become advanced industrial stages. Our company and business and our Government are more interest buying some one else technology rather then developing our own. We are more interest to become producers, assembler and traders, rather than designers and inventors.

Our lack Drive on R&D is the risk for being stuck in the middle. What can I say, we have tendency liking become a middleman. However this is also the fault of our researchers that many researching on something that not directly involved with commercial benefit. The Universities and Research entity must also proactive approaching commercial people and try found what they need and not asking them financing research that the research environment want.

Until both research and commercial sectors can find understanding, we can forever stuck in the middle. I'm not affraid we are going to be Afghanistan, but I'm affraid we are going to be Argentina.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

There is an interesting article about Pindad: Kultur

However it was in Bahasa Indonesia.

Pindad director, Adik Avianto Soedarsono mentioned how he had to change the culture of Pindad to recover the company, from a "village-like" management and a bureaucracy institution into an industry. His statement also mentioned the problem when Pindad transferred from a military owned institution to become civilian state enterprise.

Actually this kind of problem was recognized since Habibie was still in the Ministry of Research and Technology. He had to "fight" the military and also the financial ministry most of the time. His problem with the then finance minister Mari`e Muhamad was very infamous.

PT Pindad, PT PAL, and PT IPTN were in the past all belong to the military (army, navy and air force respectively).

 

[Ahmad]

Ahmad, I went to PTDI in 2006, I found mostly rusty empty spaces left by their best engineers who looked for jobs abroad. Most the facilities left were dissolved because nobody understand how to operate them. Most of their labs which were considered the best in Indonesia at a time were left without nothing, no instruments no engineers, only empty spaces. To restart the N-250 again not only money required, but to replace those engineers educated overseas for years, and to buy new research and production facilities. Yup, I am talking about time, and it is difficult to buy time. What Habibie did for decades had been lost for only a very short time. Without N-213 or KF-X comes into fruition, actually no PTDI personnel would have experience in design and developing an aircraft apart from assembling. Most who involved in CN-235 or N-250 have been either found a job abroad or sacked.

Hai @Gadjah Mada and @Ananda,

I am back

Yeah, I am an entrepreneur but also try to get money by helping my friend business
Sorry, so long not talking with you guys,

Mm, and we have been here in 2014, I bet you have seen many development of our country progress in so many areas, including in our defense industry. Many thing we can see now, including in radar product.

PT DI is also going well now. PT Ragio whose owner is N-2130 think thank project is collaborated with PT DI to get R-80 fly in 2017 inshaAllah, and this project is also able to bring back our senior engineers from Boeing and Airbus. I still think we still can improve much in 5-10 years range from now, inshaAllah.

Sorry, I am still stick in my optimist mindset, and hey...we have become top 10 economy in the world (PPP) :jump

 

[Ananda]

Let's see who's become the next President. As for the Habibie project (that regio aviasi), well he does not have facility, and hoping the facility to be provided by IAe/DI, which by them self are strugling to begin the line for N-219 on their own.

Remember all the capacity of DI right now is heavily supported by Airbus Military and EADS, so how they are going to support Habibie's yet another 'day dream' ? As for this top ten economy by PPP, I think we have talked about PPP in this forum for several occasions. Simply say, don't take much on PPP as the real economic strength.

 

[Ananda]

ASEAN moves closer to regional defence industry collaboration - IHS Jane's 360

Interesting article from Jane's. Let's see how this is going to progress. Different stages on military industrial development in each members will be a challenge on integrating the projects.

 

[STURM]

A Malaysian defence site has reported that there are plans to export around 50,000 licensed produced M-4s to Thailand. In return Malaysia will get an undisclosed number of Chaiseri multi-purpose vehicles from Thailand. Given the current political climate in Thailand, it remains to be seen if this deal goes through.

 

[Ananda]

Thailand automotive industry still working and keep the export of their products throughout the region, despite current political climate. If they still can keep the cars export running, I don't see much difficulties for them to finish the Chaiseri, for their end of the deal.

Afterall, their political climate is far better than Ukraine one. The military have total control of Thailand, and they will make sure the economic disturbance keep at minimum.

Still, this example show difficulties on getting this Defense Industry cooperation going. Bilateral wise, it can like this example. But how Malaysia can offered their license M-4 to Indonesia, which already invest much on Pindad's own riffle or how Thailand can offered their Chaiseri to Singapore in which ST's armoured products is already relative more established in the market ?

Well remain to be seen on what kind of join projects that can come out regionally, based on this agreement.

 

[tonnyc]

Worrying about what sort of regional manufacturing collaboration that ASEAN can do is really worrying too far ahead. A much more important step is agreeing on a common standard. Looking at NATO member nations, we can see that they have multiple options available for any kind of defense systems. A few of the options are even coming from non-NATO nations.

Having a similarly comprehensive standard would greatly benefit ASEAN member states economically. There will be some growing pains, but nothing that can't be gradually replaced as they go obsolete.

Anyway, I don't think we'll have a situation where everyone will get the same product made by a single specialized company. Rather, we may have multiple companies in the same field but trying to define their own niche. For example: ST might market its armoured vehicles as a highly capable combat vehicles, but Chaiseri might be marketed as an economical alternative for less demanding situations. You might even see two countries competing for the same niche, like in your assault rifle example above. But the important thing is that a common standard basically expands the potential market for each country's defense products.

(Disclaimer: the above is just an illustrative example for the sake of discussion and should not be construed as a judgment on the capabilities and value of the companies and their respective products.)

 

[koxinga]

As Ananda points out, different level of maturity poses a challenge to tighter integration along with competing product lines and different needs.

Another issue is simply political. Singapore has extensive defense and deep cooperation with the United States and Israel. These ties stretch back for decades and is at all levels, from defense technology research, joint R&D and even shared intellectual properties for some products.

While those areas would be strictly out of bounds and compartmentalized in any of such ASEAN arrangements, would Malaysia and Indonesia mind?

 

[Ananda]

Common standard is run parallel with industry/project collaboration. Achieving common standard has at the same time coincide with what project can be collaborated.

At least that for Asean conditions. Asean members individually are not advance enough to developed their defense tech on their own. They relied with outside collaboration from more advance and establihed partner. Singapore as the most advance defense industry complex in the region at the moment, relied mostly with US, Israel on join R&D development. The same path also begin to formulate with Indonesian defense industry, which take mostly European partners and on smaller number projects with second tier defense sources like ROK and Turkey. China also become source for missile tech with Thailand and Indonesia. Malaysia also doing similar path with multiple sources.

With each individual members already conducting their own projects and design with multiple partners on their own..the question on commonalities can be a problem, if they do not specified what collaboration projects that can be shared within Asean circle. Will China share their missile tech with Vietnam, Philippines, or Singapore for example, despite their missile project with Thailand, Indonesia ? Will Indonesia which their Aero industry already shown much reliance with Airbus and EADS, can have project with other members that have reliance with US industry ? Will their partner can agree on sharing their tech ?
Israel can be a problem with Malaysia or Indonesia as partner (although Indonesia uses some of their products as long as not official came from Israel), while just like koxinga says, they are already long time and reliable defense partner for Singapore.

For that they have to considered what kind of projects they can collaborated, since this related with what outside partner they can bring on the collaboration. That when issue of business and politics of the outside partner comes to play.

 

[madokafc]

Just like TonnyC has stated before, the laying foundation for all of future cooperation between ASEAN countries in defense related sector industries and technologies is Standardization. A lot of type of standardization needed to be put into fix before we are talking much further into cooperation between ASEAN countries.

Just as a reminder, even 5,56 mm cal munitions producing by Pindad is doesn't share the same quality with the Singapore or Thailand has produce or usually used. Not all armed forces want to use munitions with lower quality than they are usually used even when they are in dire needs. Let alone we are talking about standard issue, with Vietnam and Myanmar has a traditional use of Warsaw Pact standard munition and weapons inventory, there is so much homework must be solved before we are talking about this technology and industries cooperation much further.