Debate on F-35 JSF aerodynamics

[Aussie Digger]

Lack of funding was the reason for this, the US lags behind in IR/UV/Optronic technology and to keep up with a proper A2A Optronic system it would have been coming close to breaking DoD bank acount.

Hmm. Who do European Countries keeping buying US targetting pod systems then?

Witness: British acquisition of Litening III pod for Typhoon and Sniper-XR for Harriers...

As to F-35's EOTS system. It is a DEVELOPMENT of the Sniper-XR targetting pod which is amongst the most capable such targetting pod in-service today and amongst the "top 3" US EO/IR targetting systems (Litening III/AT, Sniper-XR and ATFLIR).

Comparing it directly to this is irrelevent. Would you compare a Damocles Pod to an ATLIS pod?

 

[Rich]

Played with aircrafts and their weapons for a while as a pro, meaning i had to learn a few thing that apparently still eludes you BIG time not to mention the elementatries necessary for flying them (not AdA thought).

OK, what position, service dates, and aircraft worked on. And in what capacity?

NOT interested, got a master for KungFu and I'm sure he is far better at it than you are at your art.

Oh, so your a Kung Fu expert now too? Dude, you can anyone you want on the Internet. More power to you. I'm an expert in every fighting style ever created. In fact I just won my brown pants in pooh-shitsu.

A link for the AdA magazine? You're dreaming, if you want to read two solutions, LEARN FRENCH + JOIN the AdA!!!

Naah, I cant take woman with hair under their arms. I dont even know what the AdA is. Is it like the AA?:drunk1

I'm afraid even if it doesnt look good in this forum you're going to have to trust me on this one because i'm not about to scan it for you, some of our pilots reports on 2 vs 2 vs Belgian F-16 MLUs can be seen then and there in the internet but it's about it.

Why would we trust you?

Commercial success is again NOT too much of a guarantee for performances and capabilties.

Yeah but NOBODY wants the Rafael. Its not only commercially unsuccessful but its not even commercial.

I'm not a nammie trying to debate about the latest washing powder i'm an ex-AdA specialist and as such your comments on F-15/F-16 make me laugh.

Whats a "nammie"? Is it like a Nannie? And what does washing powder have to do with anything? Is it like AdA? My comments on the two Yank fighters is based on the incredibly high kill ratio they have flying against all these other airplanes.

Go learn French, Dutch and now Chinese then come back for some lecture on my grammar, will ya? Have a good day.

Man, you are what we call a "man of the ages". Are you like a top secret spy too? Lay a little Chinese on us.: BTW use a chinese spellchecker.http://www.worldlanguage.com/Products/Chinese/SpellChecking/Page1.htm

 

[swerve]

Hmm. Who do European Countries keeping buying US targetting pod systems then?

Witness: British acquisition of Litening III pod for Typhoon and Sniper-XR for Harriers...

As to F-35's EOTS system. It is a DEVELOPMENT of the Sniper-XR targetting pod which is amongst the most capable such targetting pod in-service today and amongst the "top 3" US EO/IR targetting systems (Litening III/AT, Sniper-XR and ATFLIR).

Comparing it directly to this is irrelevent. Would you compare a Damocles Pod to an ATLIS pod?

Rafael would probably be very upset that you think they're American. They're proud to be Israeli. A state-owned firm.

Here's a Litening brochure.
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/7/477.pdf

 

[Aussie Digger]

Rafael would probably be very upset that you think they're American. They're proud to be Israeli. A state-owned firm.

Here's a Litening brochure.
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/7/477.pdf

The original was I agree. Rafael has now teamed up with Northrop Grumman to upgrade and market the pod worldwide, however.

Australia has bought it's Litening AT's from Northrop...

 

[webmaster]

Rich, BKNO, others: Please drop the name calling and useless hits on each other and discuss F-35 aerodynamics... not how many insults your brain can carve out.

Rules, if you have forgotten:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php

 

[gf0012-aust]

Played with aircrafts and their weapons for a while as a pro, meaning i had to learn a few thing that apparently still eludes you BIG time not to mention the elementatries necessary for flying them (not AdA thought).

There is a rule of credibility in this forum that when people profess to have credentials or declare experience in the military sector that they produce the evidence. This includes separation papers for those who no longer serve.

As you can appreciate, we have had a raft of pretenders claiming expertise when there was none. Our goal is to not have pretenders pollute the debate by making unsupported claims of competency.

Now that you've implied expertise, please provide Web with suitable supporting documentation.

I'm sure you would appreciate being able to confirm your capability for other members.

 

[powerslavenegi]

US engines are not designed for lower IR signatures, nor are their exhausts, if you look at the futur upgrades for Gripen and Rafale you'll SEE a comprehensive IR signature programme going with the engines.

You are not gonna make new friends here with statements like that ,anyways as far as I can recollect there is enough info on the WWW pertaining to various US fighter programmes that have tried to adress this issue infact the idea to mitigate IR signature was concieved during the testing of one of the F-16 prototypes.

And it is obvious they might have taken the tech to the next level during the development of F-35/Raptor programme.

Btw I am curious to know as to how would one suppress the IR signature without compromising on the absolute performance (thrust in this case) .And you mentioned about the Gripen programme ,but that uses the GE engines isnt it ?

You dont want to compare F-135 IR signature with that of the current M-88 trust me...

By comparing the heat signature of two engines do you mean stripping the A/C and placing the engines on the test bed and then taking the reading or using some sort of IRST to track the A/C itself ?

 

[swerve]

The original was I agree. Rafael has now teamed up with Northrop Grumman to upgrade and market the pod worldwide, however.

Australia has bought it's Litening AT's from Northrop...

But the UK has bought its Litening III/EFs from Rafael, via a UK firm which will provide all support, will do any future upgrades, & may (though that's not been disclosed) build them. AFAIK, the only countries to buy via the USA are those operating US-built aircraft.

Northrop & Rafael sell different versions. What Australia (& some others, e.g. the Netherlands, Italy & Spain) have bought are Northrop versions (with Rafael as a subcontractor), & what we & India have bought are Rafael versions. Sweden, Germany, Hungary & maybe South Africa seem to have a German version built jointly by Rafael & Carl Zeiss Optronics, for Tornado & Gripen.

I reckon that makes it an Israeli product with foreign variants produced by partners, who can sell their variants in the appropriate markets. Not an American product.

 

[BKNO]

powerslavenegi You are not gonna make new friends here with statements like that

I thought this was a military forum and that we were supposed to post it as it is.

What i say i CAN prove.

powerslavenegi ,anyways as far as I can recollect there is enough info on the WWW pertaining to various US fighter programmes that have tried to adress this issue infact the idea to mitigate IR signature was concieved during the testing of one of the F-16 prototypes.

But NOT carried over to operational aircrafts to the same degree than SNECMA did for the actual M-88.

And it is obvious they might have taken the tech to the next level during the development of F-35/Raptor programme.

Next level is still FAR lower than concurent manufacturers, SAAB with their future version and Dassault ahead with the actual version...

Btw I am curious to know as to how would one suppress the IR signature without compromising on the absolute performance (thrust in this case) .And you mentioned about the Gripen programme ,but that uses the GE engines isnt it ?

By cooling the hot jet with a cold layer feed by another source than the engine itself in fact a secondary airflow channel and shielding the exhaust nozzles as much as possible....

Here the M-88 on a Navy Rafale M.

IR Reduction by paints and materials made possible by the configuration, on the hot nozzles, the IR suppressant material would burn fast and you can't use one with the same IR charateristics either.

The material layer can be made thicker and more absorbant.

Yes the Volvo is originally US designed but SAAB adressed the issue with IR supressant exhausts in their upgraded versions of JAS-39.

powerslavenegi By comparing the heat signature of two engines do you mean stripping the A/C and placing the engines on the test bed and then taking the reading or using some sort of IRST to track the A/C itself ?

Simple logic: F-129/F-135 runs hoter and doesn't posseses a cold airflow channel appart for that provided by the compressor on M-88 even the engine casings and their BAYES are cooled.

This in turns means that SNECMA can run their engine hotter for the same IR signature or even lower...

In a word they got less WAYS to cool the exhaust gas.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I know YOU need to cool down a bit BKNO, but if you read this, why don't you spend some time trying to find what the ACTUAL exhaust outlet looks like on the JSF?

You're making some pretty bold statements, but I am CERTAIN you are not aware that NO F-35 variant photographed to date actually has the production exhaust nozzle fitted to it.

The reason for this is cost related. The LO exhaust nozzle is too expensive to be fitted to the test aircraft. The ones currently fitted are NOT representative of production exhausts.

But hey, I guess people really DO know what the LO characteristics are going to be like don't they?

 

[powerslavenegi]

AD had read about the IR suppression tech on the Nighthawk it talked of making the nozzle CS profile rectangular this makes the exhaust plume leave the A/C resembling a rect. "sheet" reducing the detection angle on or about the horizontal plane of the aircraft. The initially round cross-section expands into a two-dimensional (rectangular shape) exhaust nozzle and in a side view has a very shallow S shape. The unusual aspect of the design is the incorporation of a coanda surface in the rectangular section that shields the turbine section of the engine when looking into the nozzle. Because the exhaust duct is internally mounted within the fuselage of the aircraft, its length can be very long and it can be semi-rigidly mounted therein. (info.... US patent 5699662).


One can assume that technology might have matured to a different level by the time F-35 and F-22 programmes were concieved and hence they would incorporate something similar or better than the techniques described above.

 

[Aussie Digger]

AD had read about the IR suppression tech on the Nighthawk it talked of making the nozzle CS profile rectangular this makes the exhaust plume leave the A/C resembling a rect. "sheet" reducing the detection angle on or about the horizontal plane of the aircraft. The initially round cross-section expands into a two-dimensional (rectangular shape) exhaust nozzle and in a side view has a very shallow S shape. The unusual aspect of the design is the incorporation of a coanda surface in the rectangular section that shields the turbine section of the engine when looking into the nozzle. Because the exhaust duct is internally mounted within the fuselage of the aircraft, its length can be very long and it can be semi-rigidly mounted therein. (info.... US patent 5699662).


One can assume that technology might have matured to a different level by the time F-35 and F-22 programmes were concieved and hence they would incorporate something similar or better than the techniques described above.

I agree. A lot of people have speculated that because the F-35's engine exhaust nozzle is "round" that it's somehow not stealthy. That may be the case (except we don't know for SURE of the production models shape) however implict in this argument is the idea that no advancements in LO technology have occurred in the time since the F-117, B-2 and F-22 were designed...

Perhaps it HAS. If it's true that LM IS holding back the final design of the engine nozzle from public view, it would tend to seem more credible to me.

In anycase it's hardly something that's going to be broadcast across the breadth of the Internet, is it?

 

[Rich]

My friends I seriously question anyone who would comment on the F-35 as if the final design is set in the stone of the one bloody test model they have flying around.

I dont doubt much of what is going to be the final F-35 lives in the current test model but lets not forget we just signed off on the initial production of the thing. The F-35 program is still evolving.

And USAF is playing their games as well. The last thing they want is to make the F-35 look "to good" as they are also angling for more Raptors. Like I said its an old game. I remember when the F-16 was sitting in its place on the initial production lines. Boy they were all screaming about what a dog it was going to be in ATA and how we needed more Eagles.

An interesting difference is the F-35 is entering an export market saturated with good designs. One of which is the Rafael which I believe is a well designed fighter bomber. There are others and the F-16 didn't enter an export market with so many potential customers as the F-35 is, the reason being is there is no more Cold War and the aircraft purchase limitations inherent to the Cold War Political realities..

And interest in the F-35 is very high regardless. In a saturated market the interest is very high. Why is that BKNO? And I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about why nobody has ordered the Rafael yet.

 

[AGRA]

And interest in the F-35 is very high regardless. In a saturated market the interest is very high. Why is that BKNO? And I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about why nobody has ordered the Rafael yet.

I'll try. The Rafael is a very good aircraft on a value for money basis far better than the Typhoon. The reason(s) no one has yet to buy it is its just too freaky.

For the operator the cockpit HMI [HUman Machine Interface] is too different to everything else flying until the F-35. The unique head level display, touch screens, etc are all very different to all others. While this does not mean worse it means any air force that buys it would have to change their lead in fighter training system as well and convince knuck' fighter pilots to change the way they fly.

Secondly for the bean counters if you buy Rafael you have to buy a new suite of weapons. Typhoon, SH E/F B2, F-15K/SG, F-35, F-16 B60 etc all use pretty much the same US/NATO family of weapons. Rafael doesn't. So add in extra cost.

All this doesn't mean its better than the F-35, thats just crazed Gaullic ultranationalism,

 

[tiddles]

I'll try. The Rafael is a very good aircraft on a value for money basis far better than the Typhoon. The reason(s) no one has yet to buy it is its just too freaky.

For the operator the cockpit HMI [HUman Machine Interface] is too different to everything else flying until the F-35. The unique head level display, touch screens, etc are all very different to all others. While this does not mean worse it means any air force that buys it would have to change their lead in fighter training system as well and convince knuck' fighter pilots to change the way they fly.

Secondly for the bean counters if you buy Rafael you have to buy a new suite of weapons. Typhoon, SH E/F B2, F-15K/SG, F-35, F-16 B60 etc all use pretty much the same US/NATO family of weapons. Rafael doesn't. So add in extra cost.

All this doesn't mean its better than the F-35, thats just crazed Gaullic ultranationalism,

I am tempted to plagiarize your comments to use on another forum that has neverending EF versus Rafale arguments, it brings into focus some of the real reasons for the failure of the Rafale to gain an export customer.I had thought that I had read that the Rafale could if necessary be programmed to use NATO/US weapons although no tests have been ever done as far as I know.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I am tempted to plagiarize your comments to use on another forum that has neverending EF versus Rafale arguments, it brings into focus some of the real reasons for the failure of the Rafale to gain an export customer.I had thought that I had read that the Rafale could if necessary be programmed to use NATO/US weapons although no tests have been ever done as far as I know.

Any aircraft can, if you're prepared to invest enough time, money and resources into the integration efforts. Even Russian aircraft are coming with Israeli and French avionics, EW and probably even weapons these days, but no-one ever said it was easy...

 

[Magoo]

I'll try. The Rafael is a very good aircraft on a value for money basis far better than the Typhoon. The reason(s) no one has yet to buy it is its just too freaky.

For the operator the cockpit HMI [HUman Machine Interface] is too different to everything else flying until the F-35. The unique head level display, touch screens, etc are all very different to all others. While this does not mean worse it means any air force that buys it would have to change their lead in fighter training system as well and convince knuck' fighter pilots to change the way they fly.

Secondly for the bean counters if you buy Rafael you have to buy a new suite of weapons. Typhoon, SH E/F B2, F-15K/SG, F-35, F-16 B60 etc all use pretty much the same US/NATO family of weapons. Rafael doesn't. So add in extra cost.

All this doesn't mean its better than the F-35, thats just crazed Gaullic ultranationalism,

And THEN you'd need the French to continue to support the system in times of crisis where we are engaged in a scenario which doesn't necessarily correspond to their foreign policy, something the RAAF (and Israel and others) have learned the hard way in the past! On the other hand, if we had to take the F-35 or F/A-18F to war tomorrow, you just know the US would have a C-17 full of spares here by the end of the week.

Why do you think we sent Canberras to Vietnam instead of Mirages??? And why did Israel and South Africa develop their own indigenous versions of the Mirage?

I suspect the Typhoon would have similar 'strings' attached to it unless a deal could be done directly and solely with BAE instead of with the multi-national Eurofighter consortium.

Decisions about equipment procurement are far more than just the platform's capability and price - the political side of the deal is a huge consideration.

Cheers

Magoo

 

[Falstaff]

I suspect the Typhoon would have similar 'strings' attached to it unless a deal could be done directly and solely with BAE instead of with the multi-national Eurofighter consortium.

No, it wouldn't. BAE would be responsible for such a sale (to Australia) and for support as well. So no strings attached here... BTW what about the NH-90 an and Tigers? Surely if Australia bought EFs they most likely would be provided with a very robust maintenance infrastructure or even become project members. But that's just fictional and very OT
Apart from that I can't imagine the German, Italian or Spanish government holding back spares for Australia. For some reason you guys are very popular here

Decisions about equipment procurement are far more than just the platform's capability and price - the political side of the deal is a huge consideration.

Well said mate.

BTW how come really every thread these days becomes a F-35 vs. Rafale vs. Eurofighter thread?

 

[tiddles]

Rafales for sale

The political reasons for buyers resistance have been argued many times elsewhere,ad-finitum in fact, however Agras reply pulls a few good arguments together that I will use elsewhere, however there has been plenty of info suggesting that the Rafale combat system is capable of being programed to handle US/NATO weapons although none have been tested. The closer the JSF program gets toward the assembly line the further away chances of sales get for EF,Gripen EF.

 

[Magoo]

BTW what about the NH-90 an and Tigers?

Good point, but as those aircraft are built here from a steadily increasing local content, we'd probably be able to support them as a stand alone entity.

BTW how come really every thread these days becomes a F-35 vs. Rafale vs. Eurofighter thread?

I guess it's F-35 vs the rest of the world in some people's eyes these days!

Cheers

Magoo