Danish Defence budget agreement 2010-2014

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Let's face it. Out of NATO context Denmark is not going to defend it's homesoil against any of it's neighbours (ok, maybe against Norway).
And if the need is there they can always come and play with their bigger NATO partners to bring back lost capabilities.

IMHO it is much more dangerous if the bigger NATO countries diminish their conventional warfare capabilities.
 

IPA35

New Member
That's why even the smaller countries must maintain a military...

Would be funny if only the US ended up having a military, ehh?
And there is this horrible speculation about an EU military...

But that NATO will not stop any real war when shit hits the fan, seriously...
Besides, IMHO they are incompetent warcriminals, but we can't discuss politics here.

What if Venezuela decided to invade the Dutch Antilles?
And we don't have a real military, and the US does not want a row with Russia, then we can't do anything...

That's why a combat ready military is so important, humanity will never have total peace and it is incredibly naive to believe bigger states will safe you, and please discrive 'big'...
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
IPA35

What if Venezuela decided to invade the Dutch Antilles?
Going after the new budget plans Denmark would be able to assist our Dutch brothers with f.ex 2 command and surport ships (one could be in a role of command and surport while the other could perform as a light attackship) and 3 advanced AAW frigates, a brigade equiped with heavy equipment and tactical air transport, which can be globally projected via the "ark-project". Which btw has seen a lot fighting in Irak and afghanistan plus some f16s.
Not exactly a "grande armee de l' emperor", though something.

Going on the old territorial defense plans, Denmark would have been able to assist our Dutch brothers by:

1) Mining the danish straights and western Baltic.

2) Ready the invasion defense of the danish isles and crawl down in nuclear harden bunker fortresses at key points along the danish coast.

3) Ready the armoured corps to assist the Bundeswehr's northern flank.

- I don't know what our dutch brothers would find most usefull....


I agree with waylander. For Denmark's territorial defense it's much more important and feasable that f.ex. Germany maintains an army that can counter the very few threaths that can evolve in the future - Denmark can't do that in any case because of our significantly insignificant size.

Also should a future need arise, the defense forces will have maintained a high level of skill and know-how through their deployments to foreign conflict zones that will give the backbone in an future re-armament effort.
 
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IPA35

New Member
If that is your opinion, ok...

But I think it is very wrong and naive to rely on other states.
Besides germans really want to avoid war since WW2.

A purely expeditional military is near useless and if the military is not capable to defend it's own country it should be upgraded or just totaly abolished if you want to belive in the pax europa...

Just my opinion.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What does us being very pacifistic has to do wiht us being able to be a help if one of our smaller neighbours wants to relearn lost capabilities?
During cold war the FRG had a standing army of roughly 500.000 men with the ability to nearly triple that when mobilized.
And that doesn't include the east german NVA at all...

These days we have half of that. Still enough for every important capability.
And it's not like we are the only ones in NATO which are not going to reduce their forces that much.

There is no hint which leads to the assumption that the bigger NATO countries are going to diminish their conventional warfare capabilities so much that they aren't able to perform conventional division level operations anymore.

And you can't compare the dutch situation the danish one.
The Netherlands are more than triple the size of Denmark.
 

IPA35

New Member
The cuts on tanks, howitzers and surface combatants in my country are maybe worse in comparison with denmark (I don't know there population and economy out of my head).

germany indeed has a large military and a large stock (which could be very important when smaller EU states need weapons fast I agree).

But the German leadership (I read this article about new force structure, 3 different kind of units or something) said there role is switching from a terrtitorial defence role to an international policing role.
And I don't really know about Britain and France, but the European military capabilities don't look good at all.

So when a big war shows up the Americans will have to clean the mess, again.

And IMHO a military that is not capable to defend it's own country is not a real military just a police force.

But the germans are not doing that bad at all but I'm more concered about my own country and other smaller states like Denmark.

A good minimum would be 1 armoured brigade with 40 tanks and an artillery unit with 24 artillery pieces, maybe they could buy second hand Phz2000's from your large stock for a fair price?

But the danish army has 1 combat brigade and one training brigade AFAIK.
But I don't know if that second brigade has a combat role too...
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
IPA35

There is a size issue here, with 5.5 million danes, that's about 1/10-1/12 of f.ex. Britains's population. If you scale it up to a population base of 50-60M people, the ambition level of the new danish defense plan, would mean that Denmark could deploy 10-12 brigades for international insertion (ableit for a short periode, for a long periode it's 10-12 demi-brigades). I think there are very few european countries that operate with - relatively - that troop level designed for foreign intervention in f.ex. Afghanistan.
Though in reality there is only 5M danes the target level is 2k soldiers in two "battlegroups" for extended international insertion, with a cabability of increasing this to a full brigade for a shorter periode. I think that is a quite ambitious plan for a small country, and in any case it's a near doubling of the current capacity, which is the battlegroup deployed to afgh.

In regard to territorial defense:
I simply don't think that there is a credible threath against danish territory, should it happen in the future, then there should be time for building a territorial defense. Which would largely be an expansion of the smaller proffesional army plus investments in equipment. Should a crisis evolve in f.ex. the baltic states a reinforced brigade plus navy and air assesets is what a country like Demark, without war preparations, can realistically bring to the table, the rest has to be taken care off by the big'uns.


I also happen to think that because the army is centered on these international missions and it is used, the army will be better, be more sharp and can attract and keep the skilled men&women that makes the difference.
We should also remember that should a country like Denmark feel threathened, it has a financial&economical potential for spending a lot more money on defense than f.ex. Isreal or Iran does.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
IPA35

I think the army has a number of units, and I don't know the exact structure. Some of these are drafted units etc. The center piece, and the thing we/the danish public is discussing is what the army can deploy on "foreign missions". That means proffesional volunteers that have signed up for such missions, and have received a training of such a standard that it's considered safe/acceptable to risc their lives.

These foreign missions are categorized either as:

A) Peacekeeping
F.ex. the UN mission to Cypres, Unifil, various african countries etc.
B) Stabilisation
F,ex, Bosnia
C) Armed conflict
F.ex. Iraq, Afgh.

While A&B is something the danish army has done for many years, and consider themselves as very good at. C is a new one. While the army spend decades preparing for Ivan on it's home turff, it's quite a different thing to get involved in COIN warfare in f.ex. Afgh.

Initially the army sought to do it by having 2 brigades intended for these missions. 2nd brigade was training and low risc missions (peacekeeping and stabilisation) while 1st brigade was intended for armed conflict missions, and as such trained and equiped to a higher standard than the 2nd brigade. To my knowledge, this structure has been abandomed. Instead the army is composed of a number of more or less independed battalion sized units, who are then assembled to form so called "battlegroups". These groups are composed on a mission to mission basis depending on need from a number of active regiments (be that mech inf, heavy armour, engineers etc).
So far, dispite high ambitions, the army has (only) been able to sustain some 800 combat troops forming the core of "battlegroup center" in Gereskh , Helman province, Afgh. Which is under direct danish command and under over all British command. And then some 500 making up a battalion in Kosova (plus some minor peacekeeping missions).
The new defense plan calls for two instead of one battlegroup, each of some 800 men plus some minor peacekeeping missions. In all a capacity to deploy 2k men for indefinate lenghts of time. Of these some 1600 in "sharp" combat missions.
Untop of that the army is to be able to field a full brigade (3k-3.5 men) for shorter periods.
The battlegroups looks like they will receive or allready have a lot of hardware including tactical air transport (helicopters), modern artillery, modern fighting vehicles (LeoIIa5DK, Cw9035, eagle4,Piranhia, archer or and GMLRS) etc etc.

At the same time, as far as I know, the army maintains it's ability to conduct warfare on a divisional level (I quess they do that by using proffesonals in training or on pause together with the conscripted units).

This represent an abandoment of the cold war capacity, to lead a defense of the danish isles against a full blown warpac amfibious attack and simultanious warfighting on "panzer corps" level on the northern flank of the Bundeswehr. Though that army was useless in figting modern foreign wars, not because the training weren't good, but because the soldiers and officers had signed up or was pressed into service to defend the "homeland" - not getting the leg IED'ed in some remote far away dessert, and it would have been political suicide of any goverment to press enlisted men into f,ex Afgh.

It is the conclusion of the danish state that there is no credible threath against danish territory now nor in a forseeable future, and the army transformation has to be seen in that light.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
The Homeguard

Is a clandestine organisation who's file is made up by (unpayed) civilian volunteers (who then recieved special training and often/always had recieved regular millitary training in the army) and a relic from the cold war.
When it made sense (during the cold war) it was tasked with guarding of key installations and the public, surport of the regular army, sabotage and guerilla warfare.

One thing that scared the army back in those days where the possibility that the enemy would infiltrate or use rapid insertion prior to an attack, disrupting or even defeating the main defenses. As a counter you had the locally based homeguard were the guardsmen kept weapons and equipment at home and as such could be activated litterally within minutes, resisting the enemy infiltration. During regular fighting the homeguard would surport the army, behind the lines it could conduct 5th column activities. Should the country be overrun, the organisation could continue the struggle as a guerilla force. I also believe that a less advertised idea were that in case the country was overrunned and then later liberated by allies. the homeguard would constitute a loyal armed force that could be used to quickly establish the authority of the state and take care of certain "eventuallities" - like insurrection by moscow faithfulls.

During the large NATO exercises (in which f.ex. the british played invasion forces) the homeguard actually proved very effective at countering infiltration attempts, since the locals had 100% local awareness and could take up the fight with short notice or make the enemy known. With some 60-70k "secret" members it was a force that even a succesfull invader had to take into account. The homeguard was and is something that divides danes. Half the population saw/sees the homeguard as a bunch of nationalistic hillbillies that by virtue of being heavely armed constituted a much greater danger than the entire ORBAT of the Warpac while the other half saw it as a surpreame expression of "Will to defense". and together with the common draft, a reassurance that ultimately the defense and ultimate means of power of the realm rested amoung the citizens.

My personal oppinion is that millitarely there is little or, rather, no need for the homeguard. On the other hand the homeguard, particularely the navy-homeguard is doing a great job at many different tasks. Like f.ex. pollution control or costal SAR, something that would cost a lot of money if it weren't done for free.
 
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