To be honest, getting two helicopters on any of the escorts is going to be unusual given the paucity of helicopters. I can certainly see UAV's being carried .... possibly larger than the ones the ADF is currently operating.
Cruiser with 4 helicopters
- Thread starter Larso66
- Start date
2 x Firescouts + 1 x MH60R would seem to give quite good coverage and is probably more realistic.
Even then, if chasing or looking for things, its unlikely to be alone.
Even then, if chasing or looking for things, its unlikely to be alone.
I think this is a worthy conversation as getting aviation to sea in what ever form is mandatory force multiplier.
Therefore it intrigues me why there has been a move for modern Frigates / Destroyers to have only one Helicopter.
Our former FFG's could embark Two Seahawks in a side by side hangar configuration, so realistically size is should not the problem for larger vessels.
I wonder what the driver is for this trend.
Acknowledging that helicopters and large UAV's are expensive beasts, is this the issue.
Or is it that we want to rely on dedicated aviation platforms like Aircraft carriers or LHD type ships.
I would have thought that even these large such vessels are often tight on space.
Surely the more ASW helicopters required by the taskforce that can be off loaded to the destroyers, then the more choice in loadout available to the AC/ LHD.
In the RAN context.
Four escorts with Four helicopters or eight?
I'm sure four extra helicopter or commensurate vehicle park spaces would always be welcomed on our Canberra Class.
Thoughts
Regards S
Git_Kraken
Active Member
If you are one of those countries that often operate very large helicopters (UK, Italy, Canada) then there are weight considerations. The Canadian 280's were designed with a double hangar on a ~4300 ton structure to accommodate 2x Sea Kings, but that seems to be a crazy 1980's RCN thing with multiple big helo's on smaller ships (the 280s were modernized and operated up until ~5 years ago but the multiple helo's on a ship was a 80's choice).
Helicopters are also much more capable than they used to be. Longer ranges, higher endurance, much better sensors. Ships have better sensors as well. Perhaps multiple helicopters were crammed in not as an ideal solution but because it was a must-have in order to get the sensor/mission coverage that is not covered by better equipment on newer aircraft and ships.
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Anthony_B_78
Active Member
I was thinking maybe there was less demand for numbers of helicopters because the submarine threat has been to have diminished? Certainly that's the case in a numerical sense for NATO navies.
As for the capabilities, does the SH-60 and derivatives have greater range and endurance than, say, the Sea King?
No, because in the Asia Pacific region the submarine population is breeding like rabbits. In my reply above I said cost and that's one part of it. However since 2002 the FVEY and NATO navies have been more concerned with anti terrorism work rather than ASW and as a result ASW has taken a back seat with expertise and skills decaying over time. Two decades is a long time for such skills and arts to be neglected.
Now they are having to relearn and retrain in the dark arts of ASW. It's something that I believe takes time and practice, lots of practice, to bring the skill levels back up to the modern day equivalent of what they were in 1989. It's actually symptomatic of forces having to reorientate back to their core business, which is peer on peer warfare. Interestingly enough I have seen claims that the ADF has been structured to much for war against terrorism and not enough for peer on peer conflict. I think that in some cases that possibly may be fair comment.
Git_Kraken
Active Member
Totally agree. From the Canadian perspective, for the army there has been a return to winter warfare given the conflict in Ukraine and NATO missions in the Baltic states.
The East Cost RCN is doing more SNMG in northern latitudes (Baltic, North Sea, Black Sea) to keep Russia "contained". That means lots of ASW practice. West Coast RCN has in the last few years deployed submarines to Japan to patrol North Korea and done joint ASW exercises. Everything old is new again after the counter-terrorism diversion. Back to real blue navy stuff, which means dealing with submarines.
a) Most NATO navies started offloading the helo basing for VERTREP and other transport duties from the escorts to auxiliary ships about 15 years ago.
b) UAVs replace helos in at least surveillance roles, requiring less manned aviation for that role.
c) some European NATO navies have shifted ASW components over onto core ships (carrier/amphib) nowadays, carried in a plug-and-play fashion.
d) for those for whom c) doesn't apply you often still have the same two helos per escort ratio.