Countries that have the "know-how", but not the money?

[contedicavour]

I think at present only USA and Russia are the two countries which have the know how to independently develop - manufacture and field any- but any defence system be it Aircraft, Naval vessel, Missile system or any related equippment- without any dependence on another nation for parts- labour - or design. Of course US has all the money- & russia has all the talent and long tradition of weapons design- but no money. Every other country, be it France, UK, Germany, Italy, Sweden , Spain, China,Israel, India, et. al. can only do fragments of a weapon system and beg- borrow or steal design & components to complete todays' complex weapon systems. USA & Russia straddle the entire spectrum of weapons manufacture.

Ehm I have to take the defence of the country where I live... France has proven that it can develop and build locally 100% of its weapons systems, including all its nuclear weapons systems (M51 missiles and all the delivery systems). They have often done it by wasting money and making bad choices for taxpayers, but they have done it.
There is no non-French system in the Army or Navy or Air Force (ok there just 2 exceptions : AWACS and E2C for the Navy).
Sweden also came real close to achieving this result, even more amazing given the small size of its population. Its Air Force has only local production jets, its Navy is 100% local (down to the least weapons systems) and the Army used to develop everything locally, though this isn't the case anymore since Leo2s have replaced the S-something MBTs.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

lol! i wouldnt put india anywher near tht list. if anythng we seem to hv more money and less tech. for e.g. the design for lca and arjun tanks would be ancient by the time they go in to prodctn, if ever tht is. on the other hand we are buying phalcons, mrca, scorpenes, frigates all worth billions of dollars. the only decent tech we seem to hv developed are the missiles.

You sure have the potential to develop areas of expertise if your defence industry focuses on them instead of trying to develop local products in all sectors. Beyond missiles, your Dhruv helicopters could lead to other local good products. Beyond the Arjun you could also be autonomous now in MBTs. You have built or are building all sizes of ships, and are increasing local content from weaponry to electronics. The cherry on the cake would be the SSNs, though for this 1st generation it surely looks very very Russian...

cheers

 

[Waylander]

I also do not agree that the major european countrys are not able to build everything they want.
I agree that we just cannot compete with the US (Not with a defence budget which comes close to the whole budget of Germany).
But where does a major european country lacks tech which is 1st-2nd place? In which field?

 

[vijayshimla]

lol! i wouldnt put india anywher near tht list. if anythng we seem to hv more money and less tech. for e.g. the design for lca and arjun tanks would be ancient by the time they go in to prodctn, if ever tht is. on the other hand we are buying phalcons, mrca, scorpenes, frigates all worth billions of dollars. the only decent tech we seem to hv developed are the missiles.

Actually indian tradition for weapons design is is very new & very raw- and worse is, the entire set up for weaponisation of our nation seems to be governed by one block- BABUDOM- what is lacking is innovation and leadership-unshacled by these damn babus- just imagine if the innovation of our IT companies like Infosys couldbe translated to DRDO- where we would reach, instead of being mired in weapon systems which take decades to frutify & then fail in actual field conditions!!. The government & peple of india will have to take very bold steps if this nation is to develop & field advanced Indian designed and produced weapons, otherwise India will, only be a client state to Russia, USA, Israel, France etc.etc etc. & we all know what it will lead to!.

 

[merocaine]

Any european country, and I include the former warsaw pact countries could build anything they want. If you have a educated population its not a problem, all you need then is the political will and the money!!! and now large parts of asia as well.

Look at Israel ranked 25th in the developed countries index, 4th most advanced military on the planet.

A more interesting question is the effect that kind of military R & D has on your domestic economy and your forigen relations.

 

[Waylander]

To say that with enough money and specialists you are able to produce everything you want is right but too easy.
I think the topic is about now. And even if you have nearly unlimited funds and brainbugs it takes time to develop new systems.
Just take armor technology as an example. There experience is a main factor.

For example if you would give Angola a defense budget bigger than that of the US and more scientists it would nevertheless take time to be on par with the US.

 

[Aussie Digger]

The bushmaster for us would be a show of Aussie made-defence only equipment, so in limited areas we already do this.
The money for many is not the problem, its the willingness to spend on research when its readily available elsewhere.

Agreed. Except for the engine, transmission drive-train, suspension, brakes, wheels, tyres, air-con and radio's it's 100% Australian designed...

 

[darsh]

You sure have the potential to develop areas of expertise if your defence industry focuses on them instead of trying to develop local products in all sectors. Beyond missiles, your Dhruv helicopters could lead to other local good products. Beyond the Arjun you could also be autonomous now in MBTs. You have built or are building all sizes of ships, and are increasing local content from weaponry to electronics. The cherry on the cake would be the SSNs, though for this 1st generation it surely looks very very Russian...

cheers

i agree with u on most counts though i believe that pride is the only factor that keeps the arjun program still going. in todays terms it would be difficult to justify india on the above list.
but in general due to the high nos of engineers we produce and rapid industrialisation, india's capacity to produce its own weapon system can only increase although as someone said it may take some time.

 

[merocaine]

The bushmaster for us would be a show of Aussie made-defence only equipment, so in limited areas we already do this.
The money for many is not the problem, its the willingness to spend on research when its readily available elsewhere.

Hey Is'ent it Irish company that designs and builds the bushmaster:nono
build your own defence kit!!

 

[Aussie Digger]

Hey Is'ent it Irish company that designs and builds the bushmaster:nono
build your own defence kit!!

3x words my friend, Australian Defence Industries...

 

[Waylander]

Hehe, fighting about such a little gun...
Just a bad joke.

 

[merocaine]

3x words my friend, Australian Defence Industries...

licenced to make bushmaster by Tiomoney, an Irish company. Sorry mate

 

[.pt]

If you count all those weapon systems, then the only one would be Russia, but still, in some fields, somewhere behind the Americans.
Of the Western and Central Europe countries, alone, only one almost achieves that goal, France. Conbined, such as the countries of the EU, perhaps a standoff at 2nd place?
Other countries have very relevant defense industries, they all have been indicated, and some come close to meet the criteria on being selfsufficient on weapon ssystems, but in qualitative terms, in some cases they still have a long way to catch up.
But in reality no one has the means, at the present time, to present a credible counter to the number one country, not economical, not military, and in many cases not politically.
.pt

 

[Aussie Digger]

licenced to make bushmaster by Tiomoney, an Irish company. Sorry mate

There's a bit more to the vehicle than just the suspension system though I'm afraid...

The body of the vehicle is Australian designed and the engine is a Catepillar variety mating to a ZF transmission. It's not wholly Australian designed as the marketers would have us believe, but I doubt very much Timoney designed the whole thing and sold it to ADI under licence...

 

[moughoun]

licenced to make bushmaster by Tiomoney, an Irish company. Sorry mate

Timoney are involved in all sort's of programmes, the US recently had a competition for a new UGV, Timoney were involved in both finalist's :smokie, but there are several dozen Irish companies involved in the defence sector, you just never hear of them, bcause they don't manufacture whole product's, they design missile guidence system's, optical sight's, mostly high end high tech kit, we don't manufacture rifles here though or any other grunt stuff, although Protac has kit used by unit's in the USSOCOM

 

[vivtho]

Actually indian tradition for weapons design is is very new & very raw- and worse is, the entire set up for weaponisation of our nation seems to be governed by one block- BABUDOM- what is lacking is innovation and leadership-unshacled by these damn babus- just imagine if the innovation of our IT companies like Infosys couldbe translated to DRDO- where we would reach, instead of being mired in weapon systems which take decades to frutify & then fail in actual field conditions!!. The government & peple of india will have to take very bold steps if this nation is to develop & field advanced Indian designed and produced weapons, otherwise India will, only be a client state to Russia, USA, Israel, France etc.etc etc. & we all know what it will lead to!.

The first step is always the hardest. That said, I don't agree with the concept of jumping straight into developing the latest and the best hardware. IMO, India should have started with something on a lower-scale, for example an Advanced Jet Trainer, before going in for the Tejas. The end result has been a lot of reinventing the wheel, which has led to delays (not to mention sanctions). A simpler project would have also have build the foundation on which larger ones could be built. However, now that we've started developing the LCA and the foundation is built, look at how fast other projects are speeding along. The IJT went from drawing board to first flight in under one year!

Another thing that's slowing down the pace of development is the customer - the Indian Armed forces. Instead of testing a few Arjun prototypes, and rejecting them, and adding new requirements thus causing even more delays, the Army should have purchased a initial batch (of say 100 Arjuns) and then asking for modifications from the next batch onwards. This would provide capital to the manufacturer and encourage them to work on the next prototype. Also, the third-party suppliers are also not left hanging in mid-air waiting for orders. Some of them have gone out of business waiting for the Arjun to enter production.

 

[vijayshimla]

Indian defence effort

Every one in Indian defence establishment is trying to play the SAFE game- the customer -that is the Indian armed forces want to go with a proven system aka foreign- even they R reluctant to take a chance with anything indigenous, the people in charge , i.e. the defence IAS Babus have no real defence experience- soldiers have no say in defence procurement & the Ministers of Defence have the charge of department because of their ability to be the best boot lickers of the party/combine in power. Pity for us indians- only foreigners will succeed in defence field, just because at present they have invested a lot in defence R & D & have the moolah to grease the system and THEY will reap india's trillions.

 

[atilla]

Every one in Indian defence establishment is trying to play the SAFE game- the customer -that is the Indian armed forces want to go with a proven system aka foreign- even they R reluctant to take a chance with anything indigenous, the people in charge , i.e. the defence IAS Babus have no real defence experience- soldiers have no say in defence procurement & the Ministers of Defence have the charge of department because of their ability to be the best boot lickers of the party/combine in power. Pity for us indians- only foreigners will succeed in defence field, just because at present they have invested a lot in defence R & D & have the moolah to grease the system and THEY will reap india's trillions.

it is realy sad actualy sımılar ın most of the developıng countrıes lıke turkey pakıstan and ındıa and ıran and many otherer ı cant remember now such a bıg mıstake for all of us to lose money for defense ı also belıve ıf a country can not control and establısh realy ındependent defence ındustry state of art or half state lack of thıs could lead goverments to serve for the others ınterests
ı hope one day all countrıes ı mentıoned ıs goıng to be able to produce theır realy defensıve needs 100 percent home made . or maybe they can do thıs by workıng together also

 

[kams]

ı hope one day all countrıes ı mentıoned ıs goıng to be able to produce theır realy defensıve needs 100 percent home made . or maybe they can do thıs by workıng together also

100% home made may not save you any money, if that's what you are suggesting. It's not economically efficient as you may not have the critical mass required, instead it's advisable to develop your core competency in critical areas.

 

[Waylander]

That's right. If everybdy would just build for their own army most countrys are not able to reach good numbers which makes the new equipment much more expensive. Even the USA buy some foreign equipment if it is much cheaper.

And what would the difference if Turkey, Pakistan, India, etc. would work together and produce for each other than to Turkey buying and developing together with european countrys?