Corvettes for Australian Navy?

[Rich]

Chalk me down for corvettes being a good idea for the RAN. Its a simple concept really, that anytime you can free up frigates, and later DDs, with corvettes for certain roles your naval capability will improve. Most of all with so much coastline to protect and with such terrorism and illegal immigration issues as the Aussies have. However I see no reason to build a 1,600 ton corvette and then arm it like a bloody 275 ton patrol boat. If your going to rely on one helicopter with mavericks you better hope the aircraft has a 100% "ready for flight rate" and the sea state is such you can both launch and recover it.

Theres nothing like a good old fashioned cannon putting one across the bow of a potential enemy to get his head right.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I have been thinking of this for a while as it happens. I would also have three or four P3's added to the mix {based out of Nuie?}. If the P3's are equipped properly they could give very good information to the various South Pacific nations on shipping movemenst and fishing activity that they would not otherwise get. The Ships could , occationaly, embark customs/police from the various nations and give those nations a law enforcement reach they wouldnt normally have?

I would tend to look at something like the Mariner UAV, keep the crew on the beach .

I like the idea of basing out of Niue as well. As I'm sure you are aware this idea came up on another thread.

The formation of a South Pacific Command perhaps?

 

[Cootamundra]

I am not in favour of large lightweight high speed craft (which on the current fuel prices cost a heap to run at any speed) which by their nature are not as robust and have limited ability to operate in the more inhospitable areas that need to be patrolled. We have the Armadales to cover the normally moderate waters of the north, what is needed is somthing with legs and seakeeping for the south.

I think you'll find that the Armidales are able to handle and operate in up to sea state 4. They also have 3000km more range than the old Fremantle's so I don't see any reason why they couldn't make the trip down to Heard Island on Fishery patrol. In saying that they don't have helo's so I too would vote in the affirmative for say 2-3 Austal Muli-role corvettes. I would also had a slightly larger gun on them but otherwise stick with what they've outined. These ships could then be used for longer range low intensity patrolling and when required could get modules added for more specific role (i.e. SpecOps).

 

[stryker NZ]

Originally posted by alexsa
[/QUOTE]I am not in favour of large lightweight high speed craft (which on the current fuel prices cost a heap to run at any speed) which by their nature are not as robust and have limited ability to operate in the more inhospitable areas that need to be patrolled. We have the Armadales to cover the normally moderate waters of the north, what is needed is somthing with legs and seakeeping for the south.[/QUOTE]

i agree i think the RAN should have an OPV type vessel like the RNZN is geting but with an upgraded weapons package. You would get a good sea worthy vessel that can do the job without breaking the bank balance

p.s sorry i messed up the quote thing i havent posted in a while

 

[alexsa]

I think you'll find that the Armidales are able to handle and operate in up to sea state 4. They also have 3000km more range than the old Fremantle's so I don't see any reason why they couldn't make the trip down to Heard Island on Fishery patrol. In saying that they don't have helo's so I too would vote in the affirmative for say 2-3 Austal Muli-role corvettes. .

Beaufort scale State 4 is a mean wind speed of 14 knots with a probable maximum wave heihgt of 1 meter. In other words pretty calm.

So that all scales are covered; Sea state 4 on the Pierson - Moskowitz Sea Spectrum is a wind speed of 15 knots with a significant wave height of 6 to 7.5 feet, still pretty calm

The gale frequency in the souther waters can be greater than ten days a month for half the year and around five to ten days a month at other times of the year. Gales are force 8 and above on the Beaufort scale (35-40 knots and greater with max wave height in excess of 7.5m).

This is not a place for a lightly constructed vessel such as the Armadale of the speculative Austal corvette to get caught given the transit time to get to shealter and the fact this weather does not deter the poachers you are trying to track. Vessels built under the HSC are designed onthe basis they are 4 hours from a safe haven for passenger vessles and 8 hours for cargo vessels. The Austal corvette is based on the Fred Olsen 127m aluminium trimaran hull and is built ot the HSC code.

An OPV with a Helo capability, good seakeeping and long range is needed for such areas. having seen the plans posted on the NZ project protector update page this wouel appear to be a better option in this regard. Althought it is only rated to sea state 6 this is a significant improvement over sea state 4 with a significant wave height up to 20 feet.

On cost alone (both operating and purchase) it should outperform the the Austal corvette (which on has a payload of 75 tonnes). I suspect you might get three such OPV for the price a the fully fitted austal design as described here.

would also had a slightly larger gun on them but otherwise stick with what they've outined. These ships could then be used for longer range low intensity patrolling and when required could get modules added for more specific role (i.e. SpecOps

 

[Cootamundra]

Beaufort scale State 4 is a mean wind speed of 14 knots with a probable maximum wave heihgt of 1 meter. In other words pretty calm.

So that all scales are covered; Sea state 4 on the Pierson - Moskowitz Sea Spectrum is a wind speed of 15 knots with a significant wave height of 6 to 7.5 feet, still pretty calm

The gale frequency in the souther waters can be greater than ten days a month for half the year and around five to ten days a month at other times of the year. Gales are force 8 and above on the Beaufort scale (35-40 knots and greater with max wave height in excess of 7.5m).

This is not a place for a lightly constructed vessel such as the Armadale of the speculative Austal corvette to get caught given the transit time to get to shealter and the fact this weather does not deter the poachers you are trying to track. Vessels built under the HSC are designed onthe basis they are 4 hours from a safe haven for passenger vessles and 8 hours for cargo vessels. The Austal corvette is based on the Fred Olsen 127m aluminium trimaran hull and is built ot the HSC code.

An OPV with a Helo capability, good seakeeping and long range is needed for such areas. having seen the plans posted on the NZ project protector update page this wouel appear to be a better option in this regard. Althought it is only rated to sea state 6 this is a significant improvement over sea state 4 with a significant wave height up to 20 feet.

On cost alone (both operating and purchase) it should outperform the the Austal corvette (which on has a payload of 75 tonnes). I suspect you might get three such OPV for the price a the fully fitted austal design as described here.

Fair enough, thanks for the information

 

[Sea Toby]

The LCS is costing the US Navy at least $300 million, possibly another $100 million for container missions modules. This is in US dollars. On the other hand the New Zealand OPVs costs are around $80 to 90 million in New Zealand dollars, or around $50 million in US dollars. Six New Zealand OPVs could be purchased for one LCS triamaran. That's a considerable difference.

Its not so much the price of steel or the size of ship that is expensive, its the combat data weapons systems that run up the price of a ship. And the crew numbers have a large effect on operational costs.

 

[NZLAV]

Could somebody please tell me how much it would cost to build a OPV the same as the RNZN's but with a 76mm cannon, mistral sam and a light ssm?

 

[Sea Toby]

The Israeli Saar V cost $260 million each. The German Type 130 cost $188 million each. The Greek Super Vita cost $108 million each. The Irish Roisin class cost $34 million each. These are in US dollars, the Roisin similar to New Zealand's OPV.

These ships above are not exactly the same size, but similar. The difference in prices among these ships are whether they have an combat data weapons systems and have more weapons, anti-air missiles, anti-surface missiles. I consider those more heavily armed as corvettes, and those that are less armed as OPVs.

As I said before, its not the price of steel. Notice that the ships with both anti-air and anti-surface missiles run around or over $200 million each, the ships with just anti-surface missiles run around $100 million each, and the ships with just patrol capabilities run around $35 million each. The Anzac class frigate costs with a similar combat data weapons system cost sllightly more than the smaller Israeli Saar V.

 

[Todjaeger]

Question regarding Corvettes for the RAN

Does anyone know why the ADI submission for SEA 1444 (Armidale project) was rejected? It was basically a Danish Flyvefisken class modular corvette/patrol boat that would be able to be reconfigured in 48 hours to other roles like SAR, pollution control, ASW and MCM. Given that it would have the option of changing to a heavier armament than the current Bay class Customs Vessels, or their Armidale Patrol Boat derivatives as needed, I would have thought this would be useful, given the need for Australia to patrol a vast EEZ. And there is also the need to consider overseas deployments as well as anti-piracy patrols. Not something that is as much of a factor for the RNZN with their upcoming OPV. If anyone has a theory why the Armidale was selected, I would be interested in hearing it.

-Todjaeger

 

[icelord]

If anyone has a theory why the Armidale was selected, I would be interested in hearing it.

Kickbacks....

 

[Todjaeger]

insert sound of open palm smacking into forehead <here>:

I guess I missed the obvious...

-Todjaeger

 

[alexsa]

Kickbacks....

Risky comment.

The fact that overall the Armidale was cheaper than the ADI offering and DMS offered upkeep as part of the contact may have had a lot to do with it. I will be very interested to see how the maintenace arrangements of the vessels pans out as some i know some individuals involved in the provisions of systems it it is possible the maintence costs could rise a tad toward the 10 year mark.

 

[icelord]

Risky comment.

The fact that overall the Armidale was cheaper than the ADI offering and DMS offered upkeep as part of the contact may have had a lot to do with it. I will be very interested to see how the maintenace arrangements of the vessels pans out as some i know some individuals involved in the provisions of systems it it is possible the maintence costs could rise a tad toward the 10 year mark.

:sniper .........:hippie
Well, i recall the local hypocrite paper, the newcastle herald going on for a while how newie lost out on its patrol vessel design, even though it was cheaper and used a faster ship, along with a new type of flash metal protection. Overall, it was an uproven system built in a shipyard that had only managed to build the Huon, albeit on time and on budget. ADI is also a very proven provider for defence equipment, and yes most of its shipyard are in liberal held seats, but thats politics, not DMO.

 

[Todjaeger]

I am curious if anyone has either any more thoughts or information on the Austal MRC than is available on the Austal website
http://www.austal.com/go/product-information/defence-products/multi-role-corvette

From the brochure, it appears that the MRC would be more accurately described as a high-speed MRV based on a trimaran hull.

Given the images, it appears that the main armament would be the same 25mm Bushmaster on a Rafael Typhoon mounting as the Armidale. My understanding of the definition of a corvette is a small, ocean going escort, of 60m-100m in length, capable of engagement with enemy vessels and aircraft to a greater degree than a patrol vessel but less than frigates or destroyers. Somehow, I don't see a 25mm cannon, supported by 12.7mm MG accomplishing that. Is there any information indicating a greater potential armament?

As described, it appears promising for use as a MRV in littoral waters, I am just uncertain about operations in the open ocean or against enemy combatants.

 

[Sea Toby]

Australia doesn't need a trimaran corvette lightly armed. If anything Australia could possibly used a lightly armed OPV for EEZ duties, especially South. A 22 knot OPV will have much better seakeeping than a 40 knot trimaran corvette. And I agree with Todjaeger, a corvette should have one medium caliber gun, at least 57mm, and either a anti-surface or anti-air missile system, if not both.

 

[Todjaeger]

What scenario do most people think likely or vulnerable? Fishery/EEZ violations, illegal immigration, attacks on offshore assets or anti-piracy patrols?

Also, what sort of corvette is one thinking of, and where would the primary operations be?

I have to ask the following question.
If Australia became involved in anti-piracy patrols in the Strait of Malacca or other areas in the ASEAN region, would the Armidale patrol boat be up to the task or would a corvette armed with something heavier like a 57mm or 76mm be better? I am uncertain how well equipped the average pirates are in the region. I do recall reading a report by a dredging company in Singapore that they came under small arms fire from what appeared to be an Indonesian Navy patrol craft. I would imagine if most pirate groups where like the one operating off the coast of Somalia which attacked the cruise liner, an Armidale would have no problem dealing with the attacking speed boats. I don't think, however, that an Armidale would be sufficient to deal with the mothership the speed boats operated from. Would an OPV be equipped to handle this situation, a corvette, or would this be better left to a frigate?

 

[rjmaz1]

I am curious if anyone has either any more thoughts or information on the Austal MRC than is available on the Austal website
http://www.austal.com/go/product-information/defence-products/multi-role-corvette

Personally i think its an excellent idea however if it was lengthened by 50% to be able to land one helicopter and store a helicopter it would be MUCH better.

*edit* actually it looks like it does have room for helicopter storage, pretty awesome straight off the bat

Put a six missile SLAMRAAM setup, a couple mobile radar and bolt them to the deck with the control station inside the bridge of the boat. You now have awesome self defence. Replace the 25mm cannon with a much larger gun and you now have excellent sea and air defence.

Cost of this setup would be LESS than an Anzac firgute with similar performance. Over 2 years the manning costs of most boats cost as much as the boat itself. As the Multi Role covette has significantly less crew compared to an Anzac frigate it would cost less than half the price after a few years of operating, even if you add a few advanced systems. AFter 10 years of operating you could have many of these corvettes for the total system cost of only one Anzac frigate. So even if the combat capability of this smaller boat if half that of the Anzac, having 10 times as many boats more than makes up for the capability.

With not enough people to man our ships this would be a good solution. Sure they wouldn't go in alone to a world war conflict but they would be more than capable of defending themselves in a regional war.

Perfect for east timor, a few of these upgraded corvettes could have easily escorted the LHD's and done everything the Anzac frigates did.

Put some cruise missile tubes and you all of a sudden have a world class cost effective strike ship.

The Austal corvette also have a fairly large cargo hold by the looks of it, so it could even have boarding parties on the ship. This is what the Anzacs frigates are currently doing at the moment.

What does everything think of this idea?

 

[Todjaeger]

Personally i think its an excellent idea however if it was lengthened by 50% to be able to land one helicopter and store a helicopter it would be MUCH better.

Looking at the images, it appears that the design already includes a hanger for the helicopter.

As for the other ideas, I am less certain. From the brochure the vessel is 72m in length with a deadweight of 250 tonnes. While it might be possible for mission pods like those of the Standard Flex 300 (Danish Flyvefisken) which includes a 76mm OTOBreda Super Rapid, 8 Harpoon, or 6 ESSM, I question the idea that it could replace the Anzac. The vessels range in terms of fuel is 3000 n miles, half that of the Anzac. Also, given that the design is a trimaran of relatively low tonnage, I don't know, and have been trying to find out, just how much the vessel can stray from coastlines. If the design is ocean going, that i would say it is worthwhile. If the design isn't able to operate in the sea conditions that commonly occur in the Souther Ocean then it isn't really a corvette but a large patrol boat, to be used accordingly.

For those people with either vessel design or seagoing experience.
Looking at the images, and taking the given length and tonnage and apparent beam how well would the vessel operate in seas greater than sea state 4?

 

[rjmaz1]

http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19209656-5002142,00.html

That artical says the boat is much longer 127metres, is that a lengthened version for the US navy? The pictures look the same.

That would be the 50% lengthened version right there.. already under construction. That'd be a better option as the greater length can give further range allowing it to be alot more missions that the Anzacs do.