Also the policial dimension of nuclear. Australia, Canada & Japan could all afford SSNs, but would probably not be acceptable to the public.
Conventional Submarine based 2nd Strike Capability
- Thread starter SABRE
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #22
You are thumbing down on my problem. What actually has created the dilemma for me is the AIP system.
Here is a scenario in my mind. Can an AIP equipped SSK operating in a contiguous zone (enemy shared commons border or coast) perform a deterrent role with nuclear tipped cruise missiles, assuming that any military standoff between the two states (both nuclear) can go on for months or even a year? Would the AIP be good enough to compensate SSK's limited reach & endurance for such a long time?
Also let us assume that the cruise missiles will have a range between 700 to 1000Km and thus may need to stay within or near the coast. How would the enemy's advance ASW system effect the SSK's deterrent role than?
EXSSBN2005
New Member
It all depends on the country that you are trying to deter, if they are a rational player and are willing to accept a nuclear strike on their home country then no deterance (land / bomber / ssbn / ssgn / ssbk) will work, leaving that aside would a AIP SSGK be seen as a viable deterant, possiably, from a submariners point of view if the water is deep enough that I can hide in thats all the more I need for a deterant patrol, if they know where I am then I can still be a deterant unless they shoot me first. As for air assets being on me in a matter of minuites unless they are already heading towards me or are ready to launch from an airbase that is near the coast where I'm shooting from I'll probably be able to exit the area fairly slowly and since this is a 2nd strike assuming the first strike took out my home port, and all my family, do I really care about being able to get away with the exception to reload and fire off another volley.
1000km assumption will put most of the countries that would use their subs vs other nuclear armed countries will cover most of the other countries territory, ie Israel shooting Iran from almost anywhere in the persian gulf, India vs Pakistan most of both countries are in range, India vs China, most of Chinas area that they would target is in range as is most of India, NK vs SK both in range of every missile fired.
From the converse point of veiw if we are already in a shooting war trying to take away the other guys first or second strike option goes a long way towards being able to score a political win. Am I worried about a nuclear tipped cruise missile getting thru my defences? Yes It will play into my calculation that I just nuked their county and they are looking to shoot back.
The way I'm reading Saber's question is will a ssk be able to provide a viable deterant from nuclear attack, my answer would be probably as I would not want to trade a first strike if I thought that I might get nuked back unless I had already sunk it then it doesnt figure into my calculations.
Second strike after your nuked doesn't have to happen right away, dont think there are really a statute of limitations when your already into a near total war and have already been nuked.
1000km assumption will put most of the countries that would use their subs vs other nuclear armed countries will cover most of the other countries territory, ie Israel shooting Iran from almost anywhere in the persian gulf, India vs Pakistan most of both countries are in range, India vs China, most of Chinas area that they would target is in range as is most of India, NK vs SK both in range of every missile fired.
From the converse point of veiw if we are already in a shooting war trying to take away the other guys first or second strike option goes a long way towards being able to score a political win. Am I worried about a nuclear tipped cruise missile getting thru my defences? Yes It will play into my calculation that I just nuked their county and they are looking to shoot back.
The way I'm reading Saber's question is will a ssk be able to provide a viable deterant from nuclear attack, my answer would be probably as I would not want to trade a first strike if I thought that I might get nuked back unless I had already sunk it then it doesnt figure into my calculations.
Second strike after your nuked doesn't have to happen right away, dont think there are really a statute of limitations when your already into a near total war and have already been nuked.
Air Force Brat
Member
Well I'm in over my head here, but a nuke ssbn can just disappear, I have read that no one, other than the Captain, and boats officers know with certainty where they are, unless they surface to make contact, and receive messages. An AIP boat has a very limited range in comparison, I believe they are able to remain submerged for approx 2 weeks. So yes if you're talking geographically in the neighborhood, and no if you're talking globally. Aip does offer lots more options and as Sabre has suggested, could be a game changer. There is always the option to bottom the boat, and then you would be very quite. I believe we learned a lot from our excercises with the Gotland, and to be quite frank a lot of folks seemed to be very suprised when a Chinese song class, surfaced near the Kitty Hawk a number of years ago. That is the primary function of the quiet electric boat, and AIP is a real game changer in that sphere. It all depends on who the players would be, but once you launched, it would be very difficult to survive, if your target is one of the major players.
971
New Member
@ SABRE
Yes. An AIP supported SSK can function as a deterrent platform. This is the direct answer. But then so can a non-AIP SSK. To break the notion into smaller pieces: deterrence means a measure of assuring your enemy that you can hit him at least as serious as he can hit you. That you have the technology, will and delivery systems available to do that. To use a SSK in this context, sure why not? To expect to do it as efficiently as with a SSBN or a SSN/SSGN? No way.
AIPs are auxiliary systems helping a conventional sub to prolong its submerged operation. Days maybe a week. In your scenario, you mentioned a standoff between the two countries of months or even a year. No AIP will help your SSK to stand submerged for such a long time. You have to take into account that whatever sources your AIP is based on – whether is a close cycle engine or exotic fuel cells – these DO have a limited period of life, an expiration date if you will. It’s not like a nuclear reactor that needs refueling once in 25 years!
AIPs cannot assure a greater overall endurance OR power (at sea) than conventional (atmospheric) propulsion.
I suggest you read on how US NAVY did exactly that with the Russian SSKs deployed during the Cuban missile crisis. Or how Russians did that to a US SSK (I forgot her name) in the Pacific off Kamtchatka in the ´60s (IIRC).
Now, all this assuming that hostilities didn't break out. 'Cose if they did, you wish you've sent a nuclear boat instead.
I hope I shed some light on the issue.
Yes. An AIP supported SSK can function as a deterrent platform. This is the direct answer. But then so can a non-AIP SSK. To break the notion into smaller pieces: deterrence means a measure of assuring your enemy that you can hit him at least as serious as he can hit you. That you have the technology, will and delivery systems available to do that. To use a SSK in this context, sure why not? To expect to do it as efficiently as with a SSBN or a SSN/SSGN? No way.
AIPs are auxiliary systems helping a conventional sub to prolong its submerged operation. Days maybe a week. In your scenario, you mentioned a standoff between the two countries of months or even a year. No AIP will help your SSK to stand submerged for such a long time. You have to take into account that whatever sources your AIP is based on – whether is a close cycle engine or exotic fuel cells – these DO have a limited period of life, an expiration date if you will. It’s not like a nuclear reactor that needs refueling once in 25 years!
AIPs cannot assure a greater overall endurance OR power (at sea) than conventional (atmospheric) propulsion.
An enemy with an advanced ASW capability – as you mentioned – can prosecute a slow submerged moving submarine in a very excruciating way. He can cover a far greater area than your SSK would be capable of at any period of time. Once he knows you’re there somewhere, he can place a quarantine zone of tens of thousands of meters around you and if he's not prosecuting you with warning depth charges, he can just wait for days on end for you to try and break the quarantine zone or – when your AIP is exhausted (meaning you begin to lose your life-support features – electricity, oxygen, heat, water etc., the very critical features a nuclear reactor can guarantee for years) – for you to surface. And you know that when the enemy succeeded to force you to surface the game is over.
I suggest you read on how US NAVY did exactly that with the Russian SSKs deployed during the Cuban missile crisis. Or how Russians did that to a US SSK (I forgot her name) in the Pacific off Kamtchatka in the ´60s (IIRC).
Now, all this assuming that hostilities didn't break out. 'Cose if they did, you wish you've sent a nuclear boat instead.
I hope I shed some light on the issue.
Twinblade
Member
Amur and type-216 have VLS but there isn't an SLBM operational in this world that can be squeezed into those VLS tubes.
EXSSBN2005
New Member
The navigational enlisted (Nav ET rates) had better know where the sub is as they tell the officers where the sub is, plus never underestimate the nuc rates as one time underway I asked one of the nav ETs where we heading south he sais who told you, I told him that seawater inlet temp was going up to tropical water temps when we were near the surface, he said oh ya were are near Hawaii.
If your going to be nuking a major player in a retailtory nuke strike most of your home countries major cities are probably glowing as they either got nuked by you or nuked you to start with but most nuclear countries have a no first nuke strike policy and would prefer to keep everything conventional.
Air Force Brat
Member
I apologize if I might have appeared to be leaving the able seaman out as my father in law was an engine man on the USN Drew, a troop carrier that landed troops on Okinawa, and later served on the Carl S. McQuire, a destroyer that served on into SEA, and I did state I was in over my head, so thank you for coming to my aid. My point was the position of the boat is classified and at the discretion of the Captain and ships officers, of course including those in navigation, but not generally known beyond that inner circle, even on the boat, and certainly not broadcast in a position report as the Nuke boats job is to dissapear, in order to counterstrike any one foolish enough to make a first strike. To mildly disagree, while no one in their right mind would want to strike first, there is certainly a first strike policy, that is what deterance is all about.
and while we're at it thanks for being two knots to nowhere, being a submariner takes a special kind of mental toughness, and KOOL, in every sense of that word. Cheers Brat
Different thing. Preveze snorkeled during those 32 days. Snorkeling exposes you to observation provided the enemy has the necessary assets in place.
The longest continuous time record without any surface exposure for a non-nuclear submarine is held by U32, a German Type 212A, which went from the Baltic Sea to the Mediterranean in 14 days in 2006. At least that's the current unclass record.