Colombia buys 24 Israeli fighter jets

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Who knows? Who says they won't be BVR capable anyway? Israel has a "nasty" habit of keeping secrets and I'd hate to be the over-confident SU-30 pilot who suddenly finds a Derby going "active"...
Derby can hardly be considered a true BVRAAM in the R77 class. Its basically a Python 4 with an active seeker, INS and bad airodynamics. Its more akin to an all wether AIM 132 ASRAAM, I would call it an IRAAM. It is NOT in the MICA, AIM-120, R-77 class.

In anycase they are certainly a "latent" BVR capable fighter with a Python/Derby purchase, being the only requirement given the basics are already in place in the "2000" variant...

Throw in a DASH HMS and Python 5 on top of Derby and they'll be a handful...
Without a true BVRAAM it is not going to be competitive in a gloves off engagement with something as capable as an BARS equiped SU-30. The flanker will see first and shoot first in practically all BVR engagements, simply becasue it poseses a much more capable radar missile combination, not to mention kinematical performance. Outside the 20km range the flanker would truely dominate, Derby or no Derby. WVR is a different stroy, Python 4 vs R-73 is pretty even and both have a HMCS IIRC, allthough the Flankers IRST, high alfa performance and instentainious turn rates will help. In close it would pretty much come down to the pilots ability, allthough Python 5 could be decisve, that missile is lethal (if they could afford it).
 

Pro'forma

New Member
During the time I was following Colombia govirnment the member of
fighter committee had strange preliminary before session.
Authority member was throwing rocks in the garden, infos or like one
thought replacing letters.

Saddly, normal grey rocks; not gems.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Derby can hardly be considered a true BVRAAM in the R77 class. Its basically a Python 4 with an active seeker, INS and bad airodynamics. Its more akin to an all wether AIM 132 ASRAAM, I would call it an IRAAM. It is NOT in the MICA, AIM-120, R-77 class.
The Derby is a 60k ranged active radar guided AAM. It is a development of the Python, true, but features an active radar guidance system and far bigger rocket motor.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq0-Rg2ApDo"]YouTube - Derby - Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile[/ame]

Personally I think it is a fairly reasonable missile, that would offer decent capability for a force such as the Colombian air force. Not leading edge, by any measure, but a highly credible capability for a hardly leading edge aircraft...
 

ROCK45

New Member
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  • #24
Kfir, FC-1 question

I wasn’t sure where to put this so I figure here was best. Let’s say China gets the US base in Ecuador in 2009 and quickly makes a FC-1 sale to Ecuador. How would the Colombia’s upgraded Kfir C-10 armed with Python IV maybe V, and Derby + DASH HMS, match up against the newer FC-1? Just looking for rough opinions I understand FC-1/JF-17 isn’t completely finished. I think the newer aircraft has it's design advantages.
 
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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I wasn’t sure where to put this so I figure here was best. Let’s say China gets the US base in Ecuador in 2009 and quickly makes a FC-1 sale to Ecuador. How would the Colombia’s upgraded Kfir C-10 armed with Python IV maybe V, and Derby + DASH HMS, match up against the newer FC-1? Just looking for rough opinions I understand FC-1/JF-17 isn’t completely finished. I think the newer aircraft has it's design advantages.
Fairly well I suspect. However without considering the aircraft support, the training of the respective forces, availability rates of the aircraft, force multiplying capabilities and a range of other factors, there is not really much point.

In my opinion, a Kfir C-10 with Derby, Python IV/V, Dash HMS, the Elta 2032/52 radar system and an advanced IAI/Elta supplied EW kit, IAI A2G weapons kit (along the lines of Mk 82, 83, 84 bombs, Spice PGM kits and Popeye/Popeye Lite and Gabriel standoff/anti-ship missiles) would make for a very credible air combat capability for a Country with a less than extensive budget.

How it would fair individually in one v one comparisons is less useful than how such an air combat system would perform...
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
I wasn’t sure where to put this so I figure here was best. Let’s say China gets the US base in Ecuador in 2009 and quickly makes a FC-1 sale to Ecuador. How would the Colombia’s upgraded Kfir C-10 armed with Python IV maybe V, and Derby + DASH HMS, match up against the newer FC-1? Just looking for rough opinions I understand FC-1/JF-17 isn’t completely finished. I think the newer aircraft has it's design advantages.
Well as AD stated the individual platform actually doesnt have that much to do with who wins the fight, its the agregate capability of your air combat system that matters. But in terms of which one brings more to the user and would perform better, well thats an interesting question.

In simple terms the biggest difference i can see between them, without knowing the bits and bobs of their respective radar capability, is their missiles. Basically Kfir holds the WVR advantage and JF-17 holds the long range BVR capability.

The SD-10 equiping the JF-17 is basically a chinese built R-77 with diferent airodynamics. The major advantage this missile enjoys over its competitor on the Kfir, the Derby is (apart from the larger motor and range) the fact that it has a datalink. This is important becasue it allows the missile to compensate for the target maneuvering. Within the 40k mark this isnt so improtant because the low flight time means the target probably isnt going to be far from its projected point when the missile was fired. However beyonde that range the Derby is going to have a hard timewith its probability of a kill because chnaces are the target is going to be either at the outer edge or outside of the missiles engagement basket. SD-10 on the other hand can be directed from the JF-17's radar up untill the missile starts pinging. Now alot of combat takes place in the <50km range bracket, so this may not matter so much, but it allows the JF-17 user to utilise a set of long range tactics that will be hard to counter.

WVR again is a different story. The HMCS and Python 4/5 combination is much more capable system than the PL9 which is basically a liscence built Python 3 so its a generation behind (even if the JF-17 is equiped with AIM 9L/M it will be the same story). The Python 4/5 is HOBS capable, so the Kfir pilot can fire over his sholder, not to mention tha generational improvements to seeker and airodynamic performance.

Therefore it would really come down to who could apply the tactics that best suite their strengths. Both aircraft are very capable for the price and are perfect for most of the south american market.
 

ROCK45

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #27
Kfir

Aussie Digger
You have me thinking differently now it’s more about the big picture then individually comparisons. Colombia could purchase some AWACS type aircraft and teamed up with ground base radar could setup a good situations for there pilots. The Kfir seems very well equipped which leads me to my next question. For Peru whose fleet of Su-20/22s is on the older side and need to be replaced the Kfir seems to be a good replacement. As far fuel economy, maintenance needs, pilot training, maintenance personnel training, would this be cost effective for Peru to take on? Peru is pretty large and I’m not sure the Kfir has the range to be effective but I’m to remember the Su-22 not having the greatest range either. Peru could use these to chase down drug runners as well a slight overkill but Peru’s A-37s must be old too and difficult to get parts for. I don’t know what state Peru’s 16/19 Su-25Ts are in so many the Kfir could be a replacement for Su-22/A-37/and Su-25? In my head training and operational cost could be brought down if a decent number of Kfir’s could be bought. Is the older J79 easy to get parts for and maintain?


Ozzy Blizzard
So which ever pilot can keep the battle in there aircraft strengths is the key. Your breakdown of the missiles helps me understand the situation better and the FC-1 shows a lot of promise. You have me thinking about customers in South America for the FC-1. I think maybe Venezuela for a low end replacement for the Mirage V and parts starved Vipers, they seem to be friendly with China. And maybe with Venezuela’s help maybe a FC-1 program could be started in Bolivia? I’m not sure if China has any connections with Bolivia but Bolivia has the second largest natural gas deposits in South America.


General question all
Say if Peru did buy a number of Kfir’s 30/40 frames and maxed out Israel’s reserves would it be an idea to have Israel upgrade Peru’s I think 16 Mig-29As and 3 SE model Fulcrums with the Python/ Derby setup? Say Peru wanted to get away from Russia built equipment but didn’t want to waste the money already spent on the frames could that be a path worth taking? Maybe Peru could pick up some engines and other key parts from former uses to keep them flying? Or are the Russian upgrades just plain flat out better in this case? I think training and operational cost could be lowered and since the Fulcrums nose is larger could the radar be tweak a little more for range?

Thanks guys
 

Stimpy75

New Member
just some info i´ve seen on the net...
Peru´s SU-22 are out of service for a while and the SU-25(10 single seat,8 twin seat) is planned to be modernized in Georgia by TAM,including the possible modification of the twin seat SU-25 to single seat configuration.
Currently the SU-25 are used for chasing drug runners:D ,because of it´s good low speed characteristic.
if i can find again the article, i will give the link
 

ROCK45

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #29
Su-25

Hi Stimpy75
I thought the TAM plant in Georgia closed but I maybe wrong. Didn't like a sub company of RSG MIG pick the rights to future upgrades now for the Su-25 move part of the plant inside Russia? I' not home but I think I saved something about this maybe somebody here knows. I like the Su-25 a lot and believe it already has a few kills under there belts against drug runners I remember seeing a article about a long time ago.
Didn't know all the Su-20/22 were retired I assume they didn't have much and would keep a few aircraft going until the fell out of the sky. If you find the link post it I would like to read it, thanks


:)
 

ROCK45

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #31
South America

Hi Stimpy75
Thank you that information is very useful and there so much other information about South America.
 

contedicavour

New Member
If the Chinese PLAN were to setup a base for FC1 in Ecuador then you would most likely end up with F15s operating out of Colombian airbases, and it would boil down to AIM120C or even D (since we are talking about futuristic scenarios) vs R77.
I am still astonished anyway that the US hasn't provided to Colombia some F16s from ANG with AIM120A/B to make a point vs Chavez. If Mc Cain wins the next elections I'd expect it ...

cheers
 

ROCK45

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #33
Colombia

contedicavour do you think Israel would be allowed to sell some ex-A/B Vipers as a follow up sale to Colombia? I agree with what you said and surprised that the US hasn't sent/sold/leased some F16s from ANG with AIM120A/B to make a point vs Chavez. If Venezuela were smart they would be pumping oil money into top of the line training, I know I would both maintenance and pilot. It seem China and Venezuela are friendly maybe some added outside training and basic spare parts production to help matters as well. I don't know what Russian radar guided missile was sold I don't see that listed in the deal maybe the SD-10 could be setup to use on the Venezuelan Flankers? Your F-15 idea is interesting it would really start an arms race and cost wise out of Colombia range but some F-15s added onto the back of the South Korean and/or Japan's orders would keep the production lines open longer. Good for the economy and all.

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contedicavour

New Member
contedicavour do you think Israel would be allowed to sell some ex-A/B Vipers as a follow up sale to Colombia? I agree with what you said and surprised that the US hasn't sent/sold/leased some F16s from ANG with AIM120A/B to make a point vs Chavez. If Venezuela were smart they would be pumping oil money into top of the line training, I know I would both maintenance and pilot. It seem China and Venezuela are friendly maybe some added outside training and basic spare parts production to help matters as well. I don't know what Russian radar guided missile was sold I don't see that listed in the deal maybe the SD-10 could be setup to use on the Venezuelan Flankers? Your F-15 idea is interesting it would really start an arms race and cost wise out of Colombia range but some F-15s added onto the back of the South Korean and/or Japan's orders would keep the production lines open longer. Good for the economy and all.

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I imagine the US wouldn't oppose a resale of F16s from Israel to Colombia. It might even be more politically correct if, say, the Democrats win the presidency and don't want to support the Uribe gonverment with too visible arms sales.
Unfortunately however I don't see any new production F15s at this stage - the ones I had in mind would have been USAF F15s based there in reaction to Chinese presence (the one that somebody suggested previously, such as a PLAN base in Ecuador)

cheers
 
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