Civilian missile systems

[Kilo 2-3]

I disagree. RPG's have one major advantage when it comes to sea launches. They are fire and forget. A scratchbuilld missile is most probably going to have either TV or Follow the Dot guidance, since that's the simplest and therefore cheapest type of guidance available. Now imagine trying to hold the dot on target when your skiff is rolling up and down.

Fair enough. Any sea-oriented guided missile would have to overcome this obstacle. Still, I don't think piracy going anywhere in the next century, so the opportunity for developments in cheap fire-and-forget tech will be there. And, if merchant ships do get armed (which I think is unlikely), then the demand for guidance and some form of standoff capability for the pirates' weapons/ RPGs will likely increase.

It will be interesting to see if someone eventually comes up with a new form of guidance or if future developments will just be evolutions and refinements of current basic systems.

There's a big leap from bying civilian GPS's available anywhere for cheaps to buying advanced military hardware. The pirates buy GPS's for two reasons. To be able to find their way back to their mothership and to be able to find their targets. The latter is possible via an AIS receiver, build into most modern GPS's.

I do agree with your basic point that GPSes are available on the civilian market far more readily than advanced weapons systems. However, the fact that the pirates made the effort to get this kind of technology indicates that they are willing to upgrade, expand, and improve certain aspects of their capability.

As you pointed out, it isn't an analog to buying advanced weapons, and I want to emphasize that that never was my point. However, it's a first step down a very, very long road that might one day see pirates or terrorist groups with guided weapons.

 

[Thiel]

True, but I must admit that I can't see why this should lead to civilian developments, since there's already a whole slew of capable military missiles available. Missiles like the US M47 Dragon used by Iran, the Chinese HJ-9, and especially interesting, the Irani RAAD. Not to mention all the former Soviet weapons lying around

 

[Goturback]

After reading these replys, it seems to me civilians will not be able to handle this problem. It is an economic problem. As long as the pirates cost businesses a few hundred million and these expenses can be passed along to consumers this is not really a big problem- long as lives are not lost.

However, the pirates are like drug addicts. There thirst for money continues to grow, and more and more find that it is easy to do. The merchant and tourist ships are easy targets. This continues until the solution is cheaper than the problem. Either we set up natives as armed militants and pay them well to allow our ships to pass (black mail money) or all the contries involved pay for the military protection based on the value of there shipping going thru these areas.

With what's going around the world politically, we can call this redistribution of wealth!!!!!!!!!:

 

[EXSSBN2005]

Another thing for thought is that while pirates are willing to go hi tech look at their motives for using the weapons they do, ie you cant ransom a sunk ship. This reason alone would be why I wouldnt expect pirates to field more destructive weapons than they already do unless they planned on upping their game and going after warships that are hunting them. Hamas uses rockets ( no guidance system to call them a missle) that uses sugar and binder for propellent, but I have seen other people who use this in missles ( their combined brain output is higher than the same output by the hamas weaponiers i would guess Sugar Shot to Space , Richard Nakka's Experimental Rocketry Site ) but theirs is a peaceful science expirement imo.

As for a civilian missle system you or I could probably build one but what would be the point unless I wanted to start up my own naval weapon / ship building business and the regulations would sink that faster than you can get investors.

 

[Kilo 2-3]

Another thing for thought is that while pirates are willing to go hi tech look at their motives for using the weapons they do, ie you cant ransom a sunk ship. This reason alone would be why I wouldnt expect pirates to field more destructive weapons than they already do unless they planned on upping their game and going after warships that are hunting them. Hamas uses rockets ( no guidance system to call them a missle) that uses sugar and binder for propellent, but I have seen other people who use this in missles ( their combined brain output is higher than the same output by the hamas weaponiers i would guess Sugar Shot to Space , Richard Nakka's Experimental Rocketry Site ) but theirs is a peaceful science expirement imo.

As for a civilian missle system you or I could probably build one but what would be the point unless I wanted to start up my own naval weapon / ship building business and the regulations would sink that faster than you can get investors.

As you noted, a sunken ship is useless to pirates looking for ransom. They aren't (or at least they shouldn't be) looking for significantly more destructive weaponry. They need to be looking for more effective weapons systems, ones that allow them to better threaten, disable, or stop their targets.

A weapon system allowing pirates to destroy the radio array, steering, bridge, and/or propulsion of a ship would give them a tremendous advantage, especially if it could be fired from outside the range of any kind active countermeasures aboard the target ship. To a degree, RPGs can already do this; but aging munitions in the hands of an inexperienced gunner trying to hit a moving target from a pitching boat leave something to be desired.

Besides, a single RPG or even a relatively heavy anti-tank missile probably wouldn't sink a ship in and of itself. Now, fires or sympathetic explosions caused by the initial hit might be enough to send the victim to the bottom; but in most cases, proper damage control and shipboard firefighting procedure would prevent this.

 

[Thiel]

As you noted, a sunken ship is useless to pirates looking for ransom. They aren't (or at least they shouldn't be) looking for significantly more destructive weaponry. They need to be looking for more effective weapons systems, ones that allow them to better threaten, disable, or stop their targets.

A weapon system allowing pirates to destroy the radio array, steering, bridge, and/or propulsion of a ship would give them a tremendous advantage, especially if it could be fired from outside the range of any kind active countermeasures aboard the target ship. To a degree, RPGs can already do this; but aging munitions in the hands of an inexperienced gunner trying to hit a moving target from a pitching boat leave something to be desired.

Besides, a single RPG or even a relatively heavy anti-tank missile probably wouldn't sink a ship in and of itself. Now, fires or sympathetic explosions caused by the initial hit might be enough to send the victim to the bottom; but in most cases, proper damage control and shipboard firefighting procedure would prevent this.

A disabled ship is just as useless to the pirates as a sunk one. Without power they can't control it and given the currents in the area, they'll drift out of the gulf and into the Indian Ocean, far outside the reach they've demonstrated so far, effectively becoming hostages themselves.

 

[cyclopia]

I think that would be illegal most places

I guess if you lived in Somalia you could get away with it, but you could never bring that ship to a US port.

 

[My2Cents]

Im sure there are many legal problems.

But if we are arming civilian ships with rifles to combat machine guns and RPG's then where does it end? its already been suggested that ships operating in pirate areas possibly carry military missile systems.

There is enough technology and know how out there for people to assemble quiet complex "civilian" missile systems.

The civilian ships (mostly cruise liners) are being supplied armed personnel by private security firms. These personnel board the ship being protected from another vessel after it has left harbor and are removed by another vessel before entering the next harbor.

In general Customs treats any lethal weapons on a civilian vessel not traveling in bond (declared and sealed for passage as cargo) as illegal, and the vessel subject to seizure. Many transport companies consider the presence of a shotgun or rifle on board for defense as grounds to immediate termination of the captain.

Permanently mounted weapons are always of a non-lethal, such as LRAD and water cannon. Flare guns are not considered lethal weapons because they are primarily used for signaling, their accuracy is so poor that hitting a target at anything beyond 50' involves more luck than skill, and the low velocity and weight of the projectile makes significant target penetration unlikely, and the incendiary effect from direct impact is not significant (1st degree burns), though secondary effects may cause additional problems.

 

[chrisdef]

I agree the use of missilies on civilian ships isnt going to happen but thought i should add that building a missile would not be that difficult if you had the equipment.

Unfortunetly most of his work has been taken down but if you do a search for "homemade cruise missile" You will find alot about a guy in NZ, Bruce Simpson, who attempted to build a pulsejet powered GPS guided cruise missile himself for under $5000 with a expected range of a few hundred kilometres.
According to numerous sites (including his own) the project was shut down by by the NZ govt after (he claims) probable pressure from the US govt.

Depending on where you where and what you had access to building one with a solid or liquid rocket motor for a much shorter range (ie 2-5km's) would be even easier.

The problem would be GPS guided wouldnt be very usefull against a moving ship unless you had some very sophisticated computers for tracking.

 

[UK_Army]

LMFAO!

If a civilian ship turned up in a harbour armed with missiles customs would almost certainly seize them. As for making a missile, it possible certainly but there are way more effective ways to make an ASuW missile than how you describe, but it's probably not a good idea to give out ideas of how to make them on a forum

I agree with you on this! I do suggest to be extra careful on what to feed on this forum. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[My2Cents]

A disabled ship is just as useless to the pirates as a sunk one. Without power they can't control it and given the currents in the area, they'll drift out of the gulf and into the Indian Ocean, far outside the reach they've demonstrated so far, effectively becoming hostages themselves.

Which is why the approved defensive tactics is for the crew to sound an alarm, shutdown the engines (most pirates cannot operate large vessels), and hide in a 'safe room' with a concealed entrance until help arrives.

The pirates in turn attempt to get onboard and capture at least 1 crew member to use as a hostage to prevent boarding when the help (military) arrives. If they succeed then they can usually just wait out the crew until they have to give up and emerge from the ‘safe room’. Unless, that is, that the crew successfully counterattacks and frees the hostage.

 

[Awang se]

Which is why the approved defensive tactics is for the crew to sound an alarm, shutdown the engines (most pirates cannot operate large vessels), and hide in a 'safe room' with a concealed entrance until help arrives.

The pirates in turn attempt to get onboard and capture at least 1 crew member to use as a hostage to prevent boarding when the help (military) arrives. If they succeed then they can usually just wait out the crew until they have to give up and emerge from the ‘safe room’. Unless, that is, that the crew successfully counterattacks and frees the hostage.

Maybe they should build several panic room on a ship.

 

[My2Cents]

Maybe they should build several panic room on a ship.

While possible, that does not work out as well.

The first need is to make sure you have all personnel accounted for at all times. These are civilian vessels, so the only reliable way is to count noses. They also frequently have temporary personnel for supplemental manpower, which you may not want to know where the entrance to the ‘Panic Room” is, in case it gets passed on to some information broker that may sell it to the pirates (via satellite phones), so you want everyone to assemble in one area where they can be guided to it and the entrance correctly sealed to conceal it.). If either the “Panic Room’ or the door can be found the threat of an RPG round is more than sufficient to guarantee surrender. Most “Panic Rooms” are located near the engineering spaces, which is also near the crew quarters and bridge. This is a ‘busy’ area with lots of pipes and conduits to hide things like the door and the location of the ‘Panic Room’, and to give access to the engineering control runs (so the pirates cannot operate the ship) and connections to topside antennas (to maintain contact with the rescue force, who will not board unless they can confirm that the pirates have not taken hostages).

 

[T.C.P]

very recently a Bangladeshi merchant ship, a bulk carrier was seized by pirates in the Arabian sea off the coast of India. What if these ships carried armed personnel from their respective countries navy, like the way air craft carry air marshalls. One can argue that other countries will not allow in any ship that carries armed military personnel from another country, but what if a no. of countries(especially those who have strategic relations with one another) agree to allow this to happen. I for one think that is would help to drastically bring down piracy rates.

 

[GundamMerc]

I find that it is quite ridiculous that crews cannot carry weapons for self-defense.

 

[My2Cents]

very recently a Bangladeshi merchant ship, a bulk carrier was seized by pirates in the Arabian sea off the coast of India. What if these ships carried armed personnel from their respective countries navy, like the way air craft carry air marshalls. One can argue that other countries will not allow in any ship that carries armed military personnel from another country, but what if a no. of countries(especially those who have strategic relations with one another) agree to allow this to happen. I for one think that is would help to drastically bring down piracy rates.

Just be sure that you negotiate an agreement with any country you plan to dock with in advance, otherwise it could be classified as a military intrusion and an international incident when you enter port.

This only really works on vessels on fixed routes, like ferries. Nearly 90% of the worlds long distance trade travels on ‘vessels of opportunity’ which take anything they can handle from one place to another with no fixed ports of call.