Civilian missile systems

[StingrayOZ]

With technology progressing at a fantastic rate and many previously military only technologies now common place, could civilians build or civilian companies produce military systems.

For example. A Radar is now just a few thousand $ for a pretty nifty setup with conciderable range and computing power. Raymarine offer several that can be networked over a "seatalk" (sort of ethernet) network using cat 5.

It can talk to PC's and other sensors such as sonar, air speed, etc.

Could out of these one produce a civilian missile system for say a private vessel or a commercial vessel?

Missiles could be Hellfire sized, solid propellant, with GPS and inertial guidance with a data link (say 433mhz type) with position data initally provided by the radar. I would imagine the radar could even provide updates of missile and target positions to ensure accuracy. Controlled by a PIC, working with a trajectory of the target and a timeframe (for slow water borne threats, such a system would not be suitable to protect against air threats).

The sort of thing that would be able to disable small boats frequently used by pirates and the like. Disabling past rifle range.

 

[tatra]

It would lead to an undesireable blurring of lines between what is a civilian ship and what is a (para)military/navy ship. Same applies for arming crews of civilian ships.

 

[rattmuff]

Just to mention rockets.
http://www.ssc.se/?id=6016
http://www.ssc.se/?id=5713

Possibilties if it gets really, really, really, "urgent". :shudder

 

[Grand Danois]

Just to mention rockets.
http://www.ssc.se/?id=6016
http://www.ssc.se/?id=5713

Possibilties if it gets really, really, really, "urgent". :shudder

Hmm. Perhaps we should put Sweden on the list of rogue nations.

 

[tatra]

WHAT!?!? You mean to say they aren't on that list yet! nfloorl:

 

[carman1877]

That would actually be a good idea. But there would be restrictions to who could buy it and where. For example if some crazy rich guy got one and shot down an US plane, that would be trouble. But if they monitor who gets it might work.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I was thinking more for large commerical ships to combat anti priacy or for custom vessels. Or by a private security company like blackwater to escort commerical ships.

Certainly the technology is out there to cobble together a very viable setup.

 

[TaranisAttack]

LMFAO!

If a civilian ship turned up in a harbour armed with missiles customs would almost certainly seize them. As for making a missile, it possible certainly but there are way more effective ways to make an ASuW missile than how you describe, but it's probably not a good idea to give out ideas of how to make them on a forum

 

[StingrayOZ]

Im sure there are many legal problems.

But if we are arming civilian ships with rifles to combat machine guns and RPG's then where does it end? its already been suggested that ships operating in pirate areas possibly carry military missile systems.

There is enough technology and know how out there for people to assemble quiet complex "civilian" missile systems.

 

[Falstaff]

Im sure there are many legal problems.

But if we are arming civilian ships with rifles to combat machine guns and RPG's then where does it end? its already been suggested that ships operating in pirate areas possibly carry military missile systems.

There is enough technology and know how out there for people to assemble quiet complex "civilian" missile systems.

In most countries missiles of any type are classified as weapons of war and therefore may not be possessed or used by civilians. As soon as you install one of these civilian missile systems on a cruise ship you're going to be in big trouble...

 

[StingrayOZ]

What about calling them signal flare rockets.
Containing no explosives but have the ability just kinetic killing RPG's or putting holes into boats at a long distance.

 

[Falstaff]

What about calling them signal flare rockets.
Containing no explosives but have the ability just kinetic killing RPG's or putting holes into boats at a long distance.

I'm pretty sure that use for long distance strikes eliminates the legal self-defense umbrella, if lethal or not.
For killing RPG's a civilian derivate of a APS might be a more feasible solution.
What I'd do is use a smoke screen. IIRC these pirates are not known for sophisticated radar equipment. When they come, turn the ship into the wind and lay a smokescreen. Should create some confusion, esp. at night

 

[nickj]

missle system

The Russian Foreign Ministry warned South Caucasus states on March 10 not to consider the possibility of installing components for a U.S. missile defense system in the region.

Lt. Gen. Henry A. Obering, head of the U.S. Missile Defense Agency, said on March 1 that Washington might to build an anti-missile radar site in the Caucasus. Officials in Tbilisi said no formal request has been made by the U.S. yet.

“The U.S. plan about building components for its missile defense system, which will become strategic military facilities, in immediate proximity to Russian borders is a source of special concern,” Mikhail Kaminin, a spokesman for the Russian Foreign Ministry, said in a press statement.

“The possible installation of components for the U.S. missile defense system in the Caucasus region will not be a positive factor for building friendly relations with those countries of the region,” he added. yoga retreat

 

[TIN MAN]

AFAIK it is against international maritime law for civilian vessels to carry missile systems.

The Saudi king has a luxury cruiser ,onboard it has missile defence systems, to get around international laws, he made his toy officially Saudi Navy.

Roman Abramovich , Russian Oligarch and English football club owner has his own toy still in building, with missile defence systems, apparently.

 

[Feanor]

Just to throw something out there. If I private individual with funds and know-how, (or just a lot of funds, you can hire the know-how) can put together a viable missile system, why haven't third world countries with domestic MIC efforts capitalized on this yet, to gain a technological advantage? Or more importantly, non-state combatants such as Hezbollah? Is it a matter of time until the pirates in Somalia can get their hands on a similar set up or are there other factors at play?

 

[StevoJH]

Just to throw something out there. If I private individual with funds and know-how, (or just a lot of funds, you can hire the know-how) can put together a viable missile system, why haven't third world countries with domestic MIC efforts capitalized on this yet, to gain a technological advantage? Or more importantly, non-state combatants such as Hezbollah? Is it a matter of time until the pirates in Somalia can get their hands on a similar set up or are there other factors at play?

Probably because they would be no better then the first generation western and soviet systems unless they spent more money then they can afford on them?

 

[T.C.P]

There are lots of problems with civilian ships carrying missiles. I mean an accident can take place any time with sophisticated missiles on board and who knows what can happen. Navy ships with trained crews are in danger of accidents and civilian ships?? It has already been mentioned that the missiles would be seized by the port authorities, I mean would the ships be even allowed into the ports with the classification of civilian ships? And what if the pirates or any terrorist organization captures one of these ships and uses the civilian cover to enter a countries port and do some serious damage or use the missiles against navies and coast guards?

 

[Thiel]

Just to throw something out there. If I private individual with funds and know-how, (or just a lot of funds, you can hire the know-how) can put together a viable missile system, why haven't third world countries with domestic MIC efforts capitalized on this yet, to gain a technological advantage? Or more importantly, non-state combatants such as Hezbollah? Is it a matter of time until the pirates in Somalia can get their hands on a similar set up or are there other factors at play?

Three reasons. Price, need and training.

Price: Missiles are expensive, usually costing several times if not hundreds of times what an RPG costs.
To make an extreme example. A Javelin ATGM costs about $80000 if memory serves. On some of the shadier markets in the Middle East and Africa you can get an RPG 7 for less than $50. That means that you can either save a whole lot of money (Somali Pirates) or equip far more men (Hezbollah)

Need: In many ways, a missile is far more capable than cheaper systems such as RPGs, however in most cases RPGs are more than capable of doing the job. Somali pirates doesn't need a big and fancy missile to take over a merchie, and neither does a Hezbollah operative who's about to blow a VIP and his limo sky high.

Training: It takes a lot of training to use missile systems. Unlike RPGs, they need to be serviced every so often and there's a lot of finicky electronics that takes specialized training to maintain and repair. They are also harder to use, especially when firing from a tiny skiff in the middle of the Gulf of Aden. RPG's on the other hand are about as simple to use as they get. You pick it up, point it in the general direction of the target and pull the trigger. Easy peicy.
But even the simplest of weapons aren't always simple enough. One of my friends was on a ship that got fired on with RPGs. The pirates fired from about 300m, the ship is 320m long and 20m from the waterline to the main deck, and they missed.

It's worth remembering that most pirates, terrorists and insurgents literally have no training whatsoever. They won't have received more instruction than: "That's the bangy end, point it at the target and pull this doo-hickey.)

 

[Kilo 2-3]

Three reasons. Price, need and training.

Price: Missiles are expensive, usually costing several times if not hundreds of times what an RPG costs.
To make an extreme example. A Javelin ATGM costs about $80000 if memory serves. On some of the shadier markets in the Middle East and Africa you can get an RPG 7 for less than $50. That means that you can either save a whole lot of money (Somali Pirates) or equip far more men (Hezbollah)

Need: In many ways, a missile is far more capable than cheaper systems such as RPGs, however in most cases RPGs are more than capable of doing the job. Somali pirates doesn't need a big and fancy missile to take over a merchie, and neither does a Hezbollah operative who's about to blow a VIP and his limo sky high.

Training: It takes a lot of training to use missile systems. Unlike RPGs, they need to be serviced every so often and there's a lot of finicky electronics that takes specialized training to maintain and repair. They are also harder to use, especially when firing from a tiny skiff in the middle of the Gulf of Aden. RPG's on the other hand are about as simple to use as they get. You pick it up, point it in the general direction of the target and pull the trigger. Easy peicy.
But even the simplest of weapons aren't always simple enough. One of my friends was on a ship that got fired on with RPGs. The pirates fired from about 300m, the ship is 320m long and 20m from the waterline to the main deck, and they missed.

It's worth remembering that most pirates, terrorists and insurgents literally have no training whatsoever. They won't have received more instruction than: "That's the bangy end, point it at the target and pull this doo-hickey.)

Given today's needs, threats, and technologies, I'm inclined to agree with your assessment. An RPG is cheap, simple, easy to use, portable readily available, and brutally effective. It's perfect for insurgents, terrorists, and low-budget militaries.

However, I think that it's important to also consider future developments. While I can't see any major revolutionary changes made to the basic RPG/LAAW/etc. design concept, I think that some very important evolutionary ones will occur.

The increasing miniaturization of electronics (e.g. iPods...) and the gradual reduction in price as relevant technologies become more widespread might make it possible for future RPG-type weapons to receive cheap, rudimentary guidance systems. This could be a Maverick-style TV guidance, basic IR guidance (MANPADs already use this, and it might have some utility on a cheap anti-tank/vehicle weapon.), or some kind of beam following on a handheld laser.

Now, not everyone's going to need or use these features, so they won't end up on every RPG-type weapon of tomorrow, but if the cost and user-friendliness issues could be met, I'm sure some users would be very glad to have them.

As for the pirate example you bring up.

I'm inclined to think that the fact the pirate missed at 300 meters is a case for rather than against adding guidance to systems. 300 meters is towards the outer envelope of an RPGs effective range to begin with, much the less the fact that the pirate was firing at a moving target from a pitching, maneuvering small boat. Wind and problems with the sights, rocket, etc. would have made things even harder.

In fact, under those conditions, a hit would have been pretty hard to make, and the gunner would have been wiser to have held his fire and get closer.

The Somalian pirates also seem to me like they might be potential customers for low-end missiles. Based on their past buys of GPSes and other modern technology, they might be willing to buy some kind of low-end missile system as a way of continuing past improvements to some tools of their trade. But the weapons would probably be military surplus, rather than a custom purpose-built deal.

 

[Thiel]

I'm inclined to think that the fact the pirate missed at 300 meters is a case for rather than against adding guidance to systems. 300 meters is towards the outer envelope of an RPGs effective range to begin with, much the less the fact that the pirate was firing at a moving target from a pitching, maneuvering small boat. Wind and problems with the sights, rocket, etc. would have made things even harder.

In fact, under those conditions, a hit would have been pretty hard to make, and the gunner would have been wiser to have held his fire and get closer.

I disagree. RPG's have one major advantage when it comes to sea launches. They are fire and forget. A scratchbuilld missile is most probably going to have either TV or Follow the Dot guidance, since that's the simplest and therefore cheapest type of guidance available. Now imagine trying to hold the dot on target when your skiff is rolling up and down.

The Somalian pirates also seem to me like they might be potential customers for low-end missiles. Based on their past buys of GPSes and other modern technology, they might be willing to buy some kind of low-end missile system as a way of continuing past improvements to some tools of their trade. But the weapons would probably be military surplus, rather than a custom purpose-built deal.

There's a big leap from bying civilian GPS's available anywhere for cheaps to buying advanced military hardware. The pirates buy GPS's for two reasons. To be able to find their way back to their mothership and to be able to find their targets. The latter is possible via an AIS receiver, build into most modern GPS's.