China takes delivery of Russian AL-31FN engines

[armage]

China takes delivery of Russian AL-31FN engines
THE first batch of Russian AL-31FN vectored thrust engines has been delivered to the Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force for its J-10 fighter aircraft, ...
28-Oct-2005
http://jdin.janes.com/

Is anyone subscribled to Janes? Would this mean that they are going to develop a two engine version of the J-10?

 

[aaaditya]

most probablu some of the engines will be used for spares,as replacement engines,and some for research and engineering.
by the way what is the mtbf of these engines?

 

[kashifshahzad]

most probablu some of the engines will be used for spares,as replacement engines,and some for research and engineering.
by the way what is the mtbf of these engines?

They are already reverse engnering the engine for J-10 named as WS-10A so why they will reverse engineer the AL 31FN yeah i agree this can be used for further enhansement of the chineese engines which would show good results in the future aircrafts

 

[PLA2025]

the delivery of the vector thrust versions of the AL-31FN could mean two things:
1) the 2nd batch of J-10A's (from the 51st unit on) might be fitted with thrust vector engines to improve the agility of the jet to the max.

2) the delivery of those vector thrust enginese means that they are starting to assemble the J-10C and the first prototype might role out in late 2006 or 2007.

3) that they would refit some of their Su-27(J-11) or Su30MKK2 which is rather unlikely IMO.

 

[Viman]

They are already reverse engnering the engine for J-10 named as WS-10A so why they will reverse engineer the AL 31FN yeah i agree this can be used for further enhansement of the chineese engines which would show good results in the future aircrafts

I dont know how an engine can be reverse engineered ? All the components are made up of specific materials with specific designations which are unknown to buyers without full technology transfer. Only if the chinease have hired some russian experts to help them technically to reverse engineer the engine its possible.
Its a daunting task, i presume.
Thanks,
Viman

 

[tphuang]

the delivery of the vector thrust versions of the AL-31FN could mean two things:
1) the 2nd batch of J-10A's (from the 51st unit on) might be fitted with thrust vector engines to improve the agility of the jet to the max.

2) the delivery of those vector thrust enginese means that they are starting to assemble the J-10C and the first prototype might role out in late 2006 or 2007.

3) that they would refit some of their Su-27(J-11) or Su30MKK2 which is rather unlikely IMO.

do you know what your talking about? How can you put al-31fn engines in the flankers? It was specially designed for J-10.

Anyhow, this is just another added kick into the manuverability of J-10. This thing was already more manuverable than the mkks we have. I wouldn't be surprised if this will give J-10 the same level of manuverability as the su-27m.

As for the twin-engined version, it's a really tight lipped project right now. There have been some photos, but I doubt they are real. Also, twin-engined version uses RD-93 instead of al-31.

Also, WS-10A is definitely not a reverse engineering of AL-31FN

 

[Hussain]

There has been too much speculation about the use of the AL31FN engines . As the F10 hasn't started full serial production it woud be appropriate to use the AL31FN engine for the J10 fighter. At some point it was stated that there were some doubts about large scale manufacture of the J10 as the SU27 was far more advanced. It however appears that the Chinese are willing to produce large numbers of the J10A and then produce variants with the thrust vectoring engines. Would it be safe to say the single engine thrust vectoring J10 would be the only type of plane with a single thrust vectoring engine? In terms of manouverability would it be as manouverable as the Eurofighter 2000 and the thrust vectoring SU30 (MKK)?

 

[armage]

Maybe Jane made a mistake, because on CMA it says

Although it was believed to be powered initially by a 27,560lb/12,500kg thrust AL-31FN turbofan, a modified AL-31F which itself powers Su-27/J-11, Russia reportedly had denied China the license to produce the engine locally. As the result, an indigenous engine (WS-10A) may be fitted later during the serial production. Some US military analysts believed that J-10 could pose a serious challenge to F/A-18E in terms of maneuverability

On Sino it had the news 4 months ago, could this be the TVC?

Russia Signed AL-31 Engine Deal with China
According to the report of Russia media Kommersant, the Russian state-owned arms trading company Rosoboroneksport has concluded a US$300 million deal for the export of 100 modified AL-31FN turbofan engines from the Salyut Moscow Machine Building Production Enterprise to China. These engine will be fitted on the PLA Air Force’s latest indigenous J-10 fighter aircraft.

The report confirmed the earlier speculation that China had received 54 Salyut-made AL-31FP turbofan engines for a test fleet of J-10s between 2002 and 2004. Later Salyut, through Rosoboroneksport, successfully negotiated the sale of the engine for mass production of the fighter aircraft.

An official of Salyut stated that the deal, which is the latest of their deals with China, is for 100 modified AL-31FN engines worth more than US$300 million. He clearly confirmed that these engines will not be installed Russian-made fighters, but Chinese. “The contract allows us to enlarge the spectrum of our collaboration with China while avoiding ties to production only of engines of the Sukhoi family,†he said.

Salyut services and renovates engines for Su-27SK and Su-30MK2 fighters delivered to Beijing previously. A US$100 million contract was recently concluded for the delivery of parts for those engines over the next three years. It is understood that Salyut signed that contract directly, since it has a five-year license for the independent delivery of spare parts and technical servicing. It received that license in September 2002.

Experts say that the total demand of China for AL-31FN engines is 250, which could earn Russia about $900 million. Obviously, after receipt of the first lot of engines, China will sign a new contract with Salyut.

The contract with Salyut is the second within three months for the delivery of Russian engines for Chinese fighter planes. At the beginning of April, Rosoboroneksport signed a contract with Beijing for the sale of 100 RD-93 engines for the new Chinese FC-1 for $267 million. The engine was developed by the Klimov plant based on the RD-33 used in the improved MiG-29. Mass production of the RD-93 for China will be carried out at the Chernyshev plant in Moscow. Beijing's total demand for RD-93 will be about 500 pieces.

So does this mean that the WS-10A engines won't be used anymore, or it doesn't have TVC?

P.S Are there any single engine planes with thrust-vector, except JSF?

 

[tphuang]

There has been too much speculation about the use of the AL31FN engines . As the F10 hasn't started full serial production it woud be appropriate to use the AL31FN engine for the J10 fighter. At some point it was stated that there were some doubts about large scale manufacture of the J10 as the SU27 was far more advanced. It however appears that the Chinese are willing to produce large numbers of the J10A and then produce variants with the thrust vectoring engines. Would it be safe to say the single engine thrust vectoring J10 would be the only type of plane with a single thrust vectoring engine? In terms of manouverability would it be as manouverable as the Eurofighter 2000 and the thrust vectoring SU30 (MKK)?

F10 started serial production last year. Then, it was suspended for a while waiting on WS-10A, but it has restarted again and is reaching full production level. As for J10 vs su27, J-10 is a far better plane. Internal plaaf exercises showed that J-10 won all the A2A exercises between J-10 and the flankers.

As for Jane getting it wrong, that could be true, but I doubt it. We do know that there are both TVC and non-TVC version of AL-31FN. TVC version was shown in Zhuhai airshow in 2000 and 2002. Apparently, pla was extremely interested in it. This bunch of 100 AL-31FN is expected to be all delivered before the end of next year. As for WS-10A, it's still not ready for production yet. It will probably certified soon and the first batch will go to J-11B. They are supposedly working on integrating a 3D TVC nozzle on WS-10A. That should be ready next year for testing and certification and such. Only then, will they start equipping J-10s with them. There is talk that the Russians are marketting AL-31FM1 to J-10, which has more thrust than AL-31F and uses 3D TVC. Just as a reference, AL-31FM1 for su-27m has 137 kN of thrust afterburners. I guess we will see if WS-10A can achieve better performance than that.

 

[Hussain]

According to Chinese Defence Today:

The initial low-rate production J-10s are powered by the 27,500lb-thrust (120kN) Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan rated at 17,857 lb (79.43 kN) dry and 27,557 lb st (122.58 kN) with afterburning. The same powerplant is also being used by Chinese air force's Su-27s and Su-30s. Lyulka-Saturn reportedly delivered 54 AL-31F turbofan engines to China between 2002 and 2004. These are the AL-31FN model with special modifications to be fitted in the J-10.

It is apparent that the Chinese are going to be heavily dependent upon this particular engine for the SU27's and the J10's. There is going to be commonality between all the SU27 and F10 engines as they will be roughly the same size. The WS10 is therefore going to be the same size share a lot of characteristics of the AL31 range of engines..

I can only assume that the Chinese now have full capabilities for the fabrication of all types of aircraft airframes (inc cockpit, ejection seats,radar and electronic systems) and are now attempting to achieve full independence in advanced aircraft propolsion systems.

The Chinese have made no secret of replacing the AL31 engines with the W10 and therfore stands to reason that the Chinese are going to have a higly sophisticated airforce thanks to jet engines based on the AL31.


Does this mean that the Chinese are readying themselves with a confrontation with the US?

 

[Hussain]

ps The americans are convinced that the Chinese are readying themselves to dominate Asia. Sounds a bit like Japan's confrontation with the US based on the desire of Japan to dominate and conquer Asia.

 

[PLA2025]

first of all:
Stop making sugesstions or even claims that China modernizes its military to confront with the US etc. The main purpose is to replace its obsolete weapon systems. As for the PLAAF, it will replace the old J-6, J-7, and J-8 by the J-10. The main purpose is to increase the defensive capabilities of China while sending a warning to Taiwan that it cannot match China's forces.

The J-10 is a multirole fighter which most resembles to the class and usage of the US F-16. The J-10A is a fighter with some strike capabilities while the J-10B (which has not entered serial production) will serve as trainer jet for rookie J-10 pilots and could be used to carry out air-to-ground missions like the F-16B and F-16D.
The J-10A is more vicious and more advanced than the Su-27(J-11). The Flanker is faster and can carry more weapons but the J-10 has more advanced electonics and even more agile than the Su-27. The reason why some sources said that the PLAAF might reduce the order of J-10A from 300 to 100-150 was because the PLAAF and PLAN aquired over 90 units of Su-30MK (including MKK and MKK2) while awaiting Su-30MKK3, a further upgraded version of it.
Meanwhile Chinese engineers have fixed the problems of the WS-10A engines and it is at least matching the thrust capability of the AL-31F!
Those WS-10A engines can be used as supply engines for their Su-27 and Su-30 while I could see an usage of them in the J-10B since it is unlikely to deploy an attacker with vector engines since they don't need super manoverbility. The J-10 design is already a high manoverbility design even with the non-vector engines (like the F-16, MiG-29 etc.).

 

[armage]

ps The americans are convinced that the Chinese are readying themselves to dominate Asia. Sounds a bit like Japan's confrontation with the US based on the desire of Japan to dominate and conquer Asia.

Like PLA2025 pointed out PLAAF if modernizing, from you view it would like the US is trying to take over the world... they have the biggest defense budget and are modernizing planes (which are better than most fighters in the world)

Meanwhile Chinese engineers have fixed the problems of the WS-10A engines and it is at least matching the thrust capability of the AL-31F!

They did display a TVC engine, but why would PLAAF still buy AL-31N if they got the WS-10A now?

 

[wp2000]

Like PLA2025 pointed out PLAAF if modernizing, from you view it would like the US is trying to take over the world... they have the biggest defense budget and are modernizing planes (which are better than most fighters in the world)



They did display a TVC engine, but why would PLAAF still buy AL-31N if they got the WS-10A now?

WS-10A just finished the last test. My estimate is that you won't see production level WS-10A in the next 3-6 months.

BTW, nobody in china ever know that the latest batch of AL31 are TVC ones. So,???

 

[Hussain]

I think the Chinese have no reason to answer to anybody with regard to their military build up. With AL31 engine range the Chinese will be able to produce world class fighters which the PLAAF and foreign customers (like Pakistan) can induct.

My point is that the numbers of engines that China is buying (AL31 and RD93) would mean a considerable enhancement in the production and induction of fighter aircraft. The rate at which the Chinese are buying and attempting to produce engines would mean that there appears to be sense of urgency for the Chinese to re equip themselves with modern fighters, especially since the US has been recently showing great concerns about Chinese military spending.

I think with the numbers of ballistic missiles that China has they can basically destroy Taiwan whenever they wish to do so. I

What specific changes are there between the SU27 engines and the J10 engines. Is the WS10 engine AL31 external and internal design almost the same. Is the WS10 basicallly a copy of the AL31 engine?

 

[tphuang]

I think the Chinese have no reason to answer to anybody with regard to their military build up. With AL31 engine range the Chinese will be able to produce world class fighters which the PLAAF and foreign customers (like Pakistan) can induct.

My point is that the numbers of engines that China is buying (AL31 and RD93) would mean a considerable enhancement in the production and induction of fighter aircraft. The rate at which the Chinese are buying and attempting to produce engines would mean that there appears to be sense of urgency for the Chinese to re equip themselves with modern fighters, especially since the US has been recently showing great concerns about Chinese military spending.

I think with the numbers of ballistic missiles that China has they can basically destroy Taiwan whenever they wish to do so. I

What specific changes are there between the SU27 engines and the J10 engines. Is the WS10 engine AL31 external and internal design almost the same. Is the WS10 basicallly a copy of the AL31 engine?

Okay, someone on CDF has the article, he paraphrased as such:
"It is the first batch of engines from the order signed July 2005 for 100 AL-31FN. The order will be completed by the third quarter of 2006. The article says an "industry source" reports China is now willing to acquire a large (future?) batch of "upgraded" AL-31F for Sukhois already in service with PLAAF. The value of this order is more than US$1 billion. There is a photo of a thrust vectoring engine (presumably AL-31FN) on a test stand. The gearbox is underneath."

[Admin Edit: No external forum link/urls please. Use the Attachment feature to upload the image. Thanks]

That means not only will the J-10s get 3-D TVC engines, but the Chinese Flankers will get either AL-31 with better thrusts, 3-D TVC or both.

As for the specific differences between AL-31F and AL-31FN, it's mainly the location of the gearbox I think? I believe AL-31FN has the gearbox underneath.

As for WS-10A, it is based on CFM-56, not AL-31F. Studying AL-31F did help China complete the WS-10A project though. WS-10A probably won't start production until next year. We might see 40 out next year and hopefully more the years afterward. We know that the 3-D tvc version of WS-10A should come out soon.

 

[PLA2025]

The WS-10A has finally achieved the expectations for the PLAAF and they might be produced in a low-rate production first. When working perfectly they would mass-produce them. But the PLAAF (especially the J-10's) need the engines now and the Russian TVC engines are guaranteed to work properly. It also must be said that the 100 vector AL-31FN are optimzed for the J-10 which excludes the possibility to be fitted in the Su-27 and Su-30. I also don't know whether the WS-10A which has completed testings have TVC or not. The TVC version might be called WS-10B or so.

 

[tphuang]

The WS-10A has finally achieved the expectations for the PLAAF and they might be produced in a low-rate production first. When working perfectly they would mass-produce them. But the PLAAF (especially the J-10's) need the engines now and the Russian TVC engines are guaranteed to work properly. It also must be said that the 100 vector AL-31FN are optimzed for the J-10 which excludes the possibility to be fitted in the Su-27 and Su-30. I also don't know whether the WS-10A which has completed testings have TVC or not. The TVC version might be called WS-10B or so.

do you actually have the article? It sounds like you do to talk like this. Also, those engines are obviously made just for J-10.

As for WS-10A, it doesn't have TVC. WS-10B is the TVC one.

 

[Hussain]

The below site p[provides the following info upon the AL31 engine.

http://www.airshow.ru/expo/380/prod_593.htm
Designed to power Su-27 and its modifications, Su-33 carrier fighters, Su-35 multipurpose fighters, Su-34 front-line bombers

Saturn AL-31FN with low aircraft accessories positioning. The engine is designed at NPO Saturn for a special order of a foreign customer in short-time period. The engine was fully tested in accordance with requirements of the Russian Federation. First engines are supplied to the customer. At present specialists of NPO Saturn maintain the engines within flight and design testings of the aircraft.Saturn AL-31FP is a high temperature by-pass engine of modular design. A specific feature of Saturn AL-31FP is an axisymmetric vectoring nozzle with a thrust vector angle of ±15° in the vertical plane providing super maneuverability of the aircraft. The vectoring nozzle control is integrated with the engine control system. AL-31FP engines ensure stable operation in all available evolutions of the aircraft in super maneuverability modes. Saturn AL-31FP engines power advanced multipurpose Su-30MKI and Su-37 fighters of the 4+ generation
Saturn AL-31F is a high temperature engine with afterburner of modular design, flow mixing after the turbine. It is high reliable and demonstrates stable operation under extreme conditions for inlet irregularities and fluctuations levels.Under operation a modular design of Saturn AL-31F allows replacement of a nozzle, afterburner, mixer, reduction gear and other components; repair and replacement of the 1st stage blades of LP compressor and all stages of HP compressor

End of quote

 

[PLA2025]

Take a look at sinodefence.com for the article of the 100 AL-31FN engines being delivered to China.
Here are some pics of the AL-31FN power plant which has been optimized for the J-10 airframe.