Car jacking defence U.K.

[KevUK]

This is becoming a real issue in the U.K. and the police show little interest.

The useless wankers genuinely don’t give a shit.

We have the worlds worst police by a distance.

I have a high risk car and I want to defend myself.

I can’t carry a baton, brass knuckles, fixed blade knife, any locking folding knife not even pepper spray.

I’m limited to a 3“ non locking folding knife.

I don’t know much about knives.

I was going to buy a HOO, but after reading about different knives my understanding is that a detent knife is not the best idea for self defense?

Is this correct?

Thanks

 

[Todjaeger]

I am assuming that you meant a deterrent knife. If so, then I would argue that carrying anything as a deterrent is a terrible idea in terms of self defence.

Now I am not UK-based, so I cannot speak to what any of the applicable laws are, or what is available (legal or not...) but generally, if self defence is a consideration then someone should carry something which then can and will use.

There are two problems people often have when kitting themselves out for protection is that they chose something which they think will be adequate. The first is that once so kitted, they never practice to develop any skill in defending themselves with what the have. The second problem is that people unfortunately often select something for intimidation value, but they lack the will to utilize fight with it in earnest. In either case, what often happens is that an attack will end up taking away what someone armed themselves with and the attack might then use a person's own weapon against them.

I would therefore suggest one start by asking the question, "are you willing and able to seriously injure and/or kill someone to defend yourself?" Unless the answer to both parts of that question is, "yes," then there really is no point into looking further into what self defence options in the UK are. OTOH if the answers amount to, "yes," then it would probably be wise to look into what UK laws are regarding self defence, since that should likely outline what some of the legal options are, as well as whatever passes for rules of engagement.

It might also be worthwhile to take a look in a local book shop to see if they have any books on self protection, self defence or situational awareness written for the UK market. Other potential ideas would be to look into sport opportunities with boxing, MMA, or martial arts dojos.

Lastly, I would also consider taking up sport or establishing an exercise routine (I need to do this myself...) for a variety of reasons. From a self defence perspective, consider how enjoyable a would-be carjacker might find it to get cracked in the knee with a cricket bat, or to get hit in the head by someone swinging a 2kg hand weight.

 

[KevUK]

It would only be used in an extreme circumstance when entering or exiting the car.

I don’t think a 3” blade would intimidate anyone.

I’m fit, strong and can look after myself generally.

I would not be afraid to use a knife defending my property.

2 or 3 EE kids normally try to sneak up your drive as you exit your car

We have had 20 years of your open border situation and the country is a lawless shithole if you’re an immigrant.

Look what they have just done in Leeds.

I decided on this in the end.

 

[Feanor]

It would only be used in an extreme circumstance when entering or exiting the car.

I don’t think a 3” blade would intimidate anyone.

I’m fit, strong and can look after myself generally.

I would not be afraid to use a knife defending my property.

2 or 3 EE kids normally try to sneak up your drive as you exit your car

We have had 20 years of your open border situation and the country is a lawless shithole if you’re an immigrant.

Look what they have just done in Leeds.

I decided on this in the end.
View attachment 51533

Ok... but in the scenario you described, if you see them coming, is it lawful for you to pull a knife and stand your ground? Or do you have a duty to retreat? I'm honestly curious, not familiar with UK law. From what I've heard the UK doesn't look upon self defense favorably, but this is just a general impression.

 

[KevUK]

Ok... but in the scenario you described, if you see them coming, is it lawful for you to pull a knife and stand your ground? Or do you have a duty to retreat? I'm honestly curious, not familiar with UK law. From what I've heard the UK doesn't look upon self defense favorably, but this is just a general impression.

You’re 100% correct. UK law is ridiculous.

You can’t carry a weapon to defend yourself or home but can use anything to hand in self defence.

Shoot an intruder you’re going to prison even if he is going to murder you.

Beat him to death with a bottle. You will be probably be good, but you’re getting locked up or bailed until your court date.

It’s legal to carry a 3” folding non locking knife for general purpose.

If you’re being attacked it would be reasonable to use it in self defence.

If you carry a fixed blade, locking folding knife or anything over 3” you need a genuine reason (camping, gardening, professional use etc)

We can’t even have stun guns or pepper spray.

Wasn’t an issue until the mass import of 16-40 year old men from third world and Islamic shit holes.

USA needs Trump so bad even if half of the USA disagrees.

Visit London or Paris.

Not that I would.

 

[swerve]

You’re 100% correct. UK law is ridiculous.

You can’t carry a weapon to defend yourself or home but can use anything to hand in self defence.

Shoot an intruder you’re going to prison even if he is going to murder you.

Here in real life, there are cases which prove you wrong.

Shoot an intruder in the back when he's running away & you'll be locked up, but that's perfectly reasonable. He's no longer a threat.

Beat him to death with a bottle. You will be probably be good, but you’re getting locked up or bailed until your court date.

Again, not true. There are cases of people killing intruders who they believed were a serious threat, & not being charged with any crime, let alone locked up. They may be released on (free) bail until things have been investigated, but that's not exactly onerous.

And if you really believe our police are the worst in the world you need to get out more. Do they hold you up at gunpoint & rob you? Happened to me in Bolivia. And so on . . . . They're vastly better than most of the world's police forces.

 

[KevUK]

Here in real life, there are cases which prove you wrong.

Shoot an intruder in the back when he's running away & you'll be locked up, but that's perfectly reasonable. He's no longer a threat.


Again, not true. There are cases of people killing intruders who they believed were a serious threat, & not being charged with any crime, let alone locked up. They may be released on (free) bail until things have been investigated, but that's not exactly onerous.

And if you really believe our police are the worst in the world you need to get out more. Do they hold you up at gunpoint & rob you? Happened to me in Bolivia. And so on . . . . They're vastly better than most of the world's police forces.

I have never had an issue with South American police. They’re cheap to pay off and would never shoot a U.K. passport holder to rob them.

Some people are easy to intimidate and they can smell it a mile off.

Id rather police be corrupt than useless, dimwit fucks.

UK police are a token gesture that do fuck all apart from deal with “domestic violence”

They don’t even go out to burgled properties anymore.

Go do a quick Instagram search and people are openly selling every drug there is with menus and 24/7 delivery.

I guess that is one bonus as a result of the useless, rainbow flag wearing cucks.

Even U.K. prisons are like halls of residence now.

 

[Feanor]

Here in real life, there are cases which prove you wrong.

Shoot an intruder in the back when he's running away & you'll be locked up, but that's perfectly reasonable. He's no longer a threat.


Again, not true. There are cases of people killing intruders who they believed were a serious threat, & not being charged with any crime, let alone locked up. They may be released on (free) bail until things have been investigated, but that's not exactly onerous.

And if you really believe our police are the worst in the world you need to get out more. Do they hold you up at gunpoint & rob you? Happened to me in Bolivia. And so on . . . . They're vastly better than most of the world's police forces.

I still remember in Russia growing up where all the families in the neighborhood pooled their money to bribe the MVD colonel every month to keep things nice and quiet. That's why none of the kids in our neighborhood were caught with a mysterious drug satchel that had never before been seen by anyone in their possession, and that would cost more money to go away the longer you wait (prices go up when you go from police to prosecutor for bribes, and even more for the judge). I wonder if they literally used the same satchel all over town. So yes, it can always get worse. But is the relevant comparison between what is in the UK and what is in other countries? Or between what is in the UK and what used to be in the UK? Or better yet, between what is and what ought to be? Sorry, I don't mean to derail this.

Back to self defense. I understand the UK doesn't allow weapons for self defense, but couldn't you be an avid hunter and keep a shotgun in your car? I'm assuming breech-loading shotguns are still legal... Ditto for fishing gear right? And you need a knife to gut and clean out the fish? Or is the standard that you have to have been coming back from an actual hunting trip for this to be legal?

Lastly, what about blunt force weapons, or "weapons" as the case may be? Can you keep a baseball bat in the car or is it that you have to have been coming back from a baseball game? What about a nice hefty wrench? I have some qualms about relying on a 3" non-locking foldable blade. It's not a very impressive weapon, you have to get quite close to use it, and if there are multiple attackers, there's a good chance that even with some skill you'll just get the one, before the rest get you. What about an axe? Is splitting your own firewood legal? Are there restrictions on having the implements on you?

I would distinctly explore options other than a very small knife. I would also second the above recommendation for taking some classes, maybe krav maga?

 

[StobieWan]

It would only be used in an extreme circumstance when entering or exiting the car.

I don’t think a 3” blade would intimidate anyone.

I’m fit, strong and can look after myself generally.

I would not be afraid to use a knife defending my property.

2 or 3 EE kids normally try to sneak up your drive as you exit your car

We have had 20 years of your open border situation and the country is a lawless shithole if you’re an immigrant.

Look what they have just done in Leeds.

I decided on this in the end.
View attachment 51533

If that locks, it's not legal.


Anything that isn't "immediately able to be folded" without any operation of a lever or button, you're looking at 5 years.

 

[StobieWan]

I still remember in Russia growing up where all the families in the neighborhood pooled their money to bribe the MVD colonel every month to keep things nice and quiet. That's why none of the kids in our neighborhood were caught with a mysterious drug satchel that had never before been seen by anyone in their possession, and that would cost more money to go away the longer you wait (prices go up when you go from police to prosecutor for bribes, and even more for the judge). I wonder if they literally used the same satchel all over town. So yes, it can always get worse. But is the relevant comparison between what is in the UK and what is in other countries? Or between what is in the UK and what used to be in the UK? Or better yet, between what is and what ought to be? Sorry, I don't mean to derail this.

Back to self defense. I understand the UK doesn't allow weapons for self defense, but couldn't you be an avid hunter and keep a shotgun in your car? I'm assuming breech-loading shotguns are still legal... Ditto for fishing gear right? And you need a knife to gut and clean out the fish? Or is the standard that you have to have been coming back from an actual hunting trip for this to be legal?

Lastly, what about blunt force weapons, or "weapons" as the case may be? Can you keep a baseball bat in the car or is it that you have to have been coming back from a baseball game? What about a nice hefty wrench? I have some qualms about relying on a 3" non-locking foldable blade. It's not a very impressive weapon, you have to get quite close to use it, and if there are multiple attackers, there's a good chance that even with some skill you'll just get the one, before the rest get you. What about an axe? Is splitting your own firewood legal? Are there restrictions on having the implements on you?

I would distinctly explore options other than a very small knife. I would also second the above recommendation for taking some classes, maybe krav maga?

Basically, as long as you can justify having the implement in your car with you, you're good to go - so, baseball bat by itself, dodgy, Stick a catchers mitt and a couple of balls in there and the police will often just play along. I'd have thought a 600 mm breaker bar, with the correct size socket for your car would be perfectly self explanatory - wheels can take some coaxing to get off, particularly after the local tyre places have done them up with an air wrench.

Having a loaded shotgun in your car would be a straight forward ticket to a rapid intervention by a local firearms squad if it were seen.

Generally, in the one case I've personally feared a car jacking, and that's *one* instance in 35 years of driving, I relied on central locking and just being willing to use the car to move people out the way. If you've a dash cam and can demonstrate footage leading up to the incident, the police will generally take the attitude that reasonable force is perfectly acceptable. I have seen one example of a road rage incident where 3 people got out of the car in front of the person driving the car and appeared to intend them harm. They drove straight through the crowd, pushing them to one side, and one bloke actually hung onto to the car for about thirty yards until they finally slipped off. The victim took the footage straight to the local police who were fine with it. If the driver had hammered forward at maximum speed, ran someone over and then reversed back over the person, that'd be different.

 

[John Fedup]

Two foot long torque wrench with a 3 inch extension for an attached socket. A legitimate car tool and effective weapon that can be placed under the seat.

 

[Rob c]

Two foot long torque wrench with a 3 inch extension for an attached socket. A legitimate car tool and effective weapon that can be placed under the seat.

I brought a across the steering wheel lock which is quite heavy and long, which is down between the seat and the door. After I got it I realised that it made for a very good club. but it is a very legit item for a car. My car doors lock as soon as it moves and don't unlock until the gear lever is in park.

 

[Inverno]

Personally i would invest some thoughts in a defensive mindset.

You can find a lot of recommendations online like from the SAPS - Safety Awareness Vehicle.

• Ensure that your vehicle is in a good condition when you plan to go on a journey.
• Ensure that the fuel tank of your vehicle always has sufficient fuel.
• Always lock your vehicles doors and keep the windows closed.
• Do not leave your vehicle unlocked, even if you think you will be away for only a minute.
• Avoid to stop at remote places.
• Park your vehicle in places that are well lit.
• If a stranger wants to talk to you while in your vehicle, do not open the window wide -only 5 cm is enough to have a discussion.
• If something seems suspicious, do not talk to strangers, rather be rude and drive away.
• Limit your trips at night or at least take someone along with you.
• Vary the route you travel to work and back, if this is possible.
• If approached by a stranger while in your car, drive off if possible or press your hooter to attract attention.
• If strangers loiter near or at your driveway, rather drive past. If they loiter for a long time, report it to your nearest police station.
• Car jackers may stage a minor accident so they can approach your car.
• If your car is bumped from behind and you do not feel comfortable with the individual(s) involved in the situation, drive to the nearest police station for help.
• Do not reach for your purse or valuables. Leave everything behind if forced from the car.
• Your life is more valuable than your possessions.
• Do not resist, especially if the thief has a weapon.
• Give up your vehicle with no questions asked and move away.
• A lift club limits the risk of becoming a victim of crime.
• Do not give strangers a lift.
• A gear lock is an affordable and a very effective anti-theft device.
• If possible, put up a mirror against the front wall of your garage to see if someone is following you into the garage.
• Do not open your garage doors before your gates are closed.

Another one from Securiforce - Protecting yourself and your car against hijacking

• Plan your route and let someone know what your route is and when to expect you at your destination.
• Always check the rearview mirror to see if you are being followed.
• Avoid driving with your windows open and keep the doors locked and put all valuables out of sight.
• Avoid distractions while driving such as using a cell phone.
• If you suspect you are being followed, drive to your nearest police station or a busy public area.
• When approaching a red traffic light, slow down so that you only reach it when it turns green especially during the night.
• If possible, park in a central, well-lit place, preferably with guards on duty.
• When stopping behind another vehicle, leave half a vehicle length in front so you can make an emergency escape if necessary.
• Avoid driving through unfamiliar areas.
• Avoid driving late at night / early hours of the morning when the roads are quiet.
• Drive in the centre lane away from pedestrians where possible.
• Never follow routine routes when driving; change on a regular basis.

Also do yourself a favor if you're no expert in martial arts, CQB and the like, don't try to achieve a victory that is hardly to achieve against a bunch of professionals. Not sure if a shotgun locked in the trunk is of much help, a clunky baseball bat you have to grab before leaving the vehicle. A knife may be a deadly weapon, were i the aggressor, i would shoot you on sight just in case.

Cartrack opinion: What to remember when being hijacked

• Do exactly as told by the hijacker.
• Do not attempt to challenge the hijacker, or lose your temper.
• Do not make eye contact with the hijacker, as they could perceive your behaviour as a threat.
• Make sure to not make any sudden movements.
• Do not reach for your purse or valuables. Leave everything in the vehicle.
• Try and remain calm at all times and do show any signs of aggression.

Maybe some E&E driving courses can help, at least they will be fun.
A simple screwdriver can do the job of a knife, a fire extinguisher may buy you some time and respect.
Best weapon to me is a prepared mindset and being rather cautious than with an attitude and a knife.

Live long and prosper

 

[swerve]

.....
Back to self defense. I understand the UK doesn't allow weapons for self defense, but couldn't you be an avid hunter and keep a shotgun in your car? I'm assuming breech-loading shotguns are still legal... Ditto for fishing gear right? And you need a knife to gut and clean out the fish? Or is the standard that you have to have been coming back from an actual hunting trip for this to be legal?

Lastly, what about blunt force weapons, or "weapons" as the case may be? Can you keep a baseball bat in the car or is it that you have to have been coming back from a baseball game? What about a nice hefty wrench? I have some qualms about relying on a 3" non-locking foldable blade. It's not a very impressive weapon, you have to get quite close to use it, and if there are multiple attackers, there's a good chance that even with some skill you'll just get the one, before the rest get you. What about an axe? Is splitting your own firewood legal? Are there restrictions on having the implements on you?

You can carry a knife which doesn't fit the "less than 3 inches, non-locking" description if you have a legitimate use for it. I've used a knife with a (small) locking blade in front of a policeman. He glanced at it & then took no notice. Using a non-locking blade could have endangered my fingers.

Of course splitting your own firewood is legal. Odd question. I've walked past cops in the street with the head of a hatchet a bit like the one below sticking out of a bag, & they've smiled & said good morning. I was also carrying some freshly-chopped kindling . . .

I think their response would have been different if I was walking through the middle of town with it in my hand, though. I bought it from a shop selling garden tools. I could go out now & buy another one, from multiple outlets in this town.

 

[Feanor]

You can carry a knife which doesn't fit the "less than 3 inches, non-locking" description if you have a legitimate use for it. I've used a knife with a (small) locking blade in front of a policeman. He glanced at it & then took no notice. Using a non-locking blade could have endangered my fingers.

To be frank, the fact that this is how the law works is crazy. I'm still uncomfortable with the US law that limits the blade length for foldable knives to 4".

Of course splitting your own firewood is legal. Odd question. I've walked past cops in the street with the head of a hatchet a bit like the one below sticking out of a bag, & they've smiled & said good morning. I was also carrying some freshly-chopped kindling . . .

I think their response would have been different if I was walking through the middle of town with it in my hand, though. I bought it from a shop selling garden tools. I could go out now & buy another one, from multiple outlets in this town.
View attachment 51592

So on a practical level, you'd have to keep a bundle of kindling in your car that you were plausibly recently splitting with the hatchet.

 

[swerve]

So on a practical level, you'd have to keep a bundle of kindling in your car that you were plausibly recently splitting with the hatchet.

No. nothing like that. Remember, I was carrying something more dangerous than a small knife, & it was on show.

I've seen the principle described as "don't be a dickhead", & in practice, prosecutions are usual only when someone's drawn attention to themselves in some other way, very often by breaking another law.

Being caught carrying stupid things like the one below is a pretty reliable way of being charged & convicted, but I think that's an obvious breach of "don't be a dickhead".




I know people who do Civil War reenactment. I'm not sure how the pikemen cope, but I've known some of them to travel by train or bus carrying a sword. Only time I heard of one having a run-in with the police he was drunk in the middle of Aylesbury in full 1640s officer's rig, including sword. They tied his sword into its scabbard & told him to go home, & next time put it away or make it safe. They were more concerned about someone trying to snatch it than him misusing it.

 

[Feanor]

No. nothing like that. Remember, I was carrying something more dangerous than a small knife, & it was on show.

I've seen the principle described as "don't be a dickhead", & in practice, prosecutions are usual only when someone's drawn attention to themselves in some other way, very often by breaking another law.

Being caught carrying stupid things like the one below is a pretty reliable way of being charged & convicted, but I think that's an obvious breach of "don't be a dickhead".

View attachment 51596


I know people who do Civil War reenactment. I'm not sure how the pikemen cope, but I've known some of them to travel by train or bus carrying a sword. Only time I heard of one having a run-in with the police he was drunk in the middle of Aylesbury in full 1640s officer's rig, including sword. They tied his sword into its scabbard & told him to go home, & next time put it away or make it safe. They were more concerned about someone trying to snatch it than him misusing it.

The problem with overbroad and under-enforced law is that you're at the mercy of said enforcement. I don't want a police officer or a prosecutor getting to decide whether I am "being a dickhead". I want a law that I can follow and that allows for reasonable self defense without overly burdensome regulations. And remember even reasonable people can differ. Unless I am mistaken, the prosecutor is not required to apply a "reasonableness" discount to people carrying weapons. They can enforce the law as written.

 

[Todjaeger]

The problem with overbroad and under-enforced law is that you're at the mercy of said enforcement. I don't want a police officer or a prosecutor getting to decide whether I am "being a dickhead". I want a law that I can follow and that allows for reasonable self defense without overly burdensome regulations. And remember even reasonable people can differ. Unless I am mistaken, the prosecutor is not required to apply a "reasonableness" discount to people carrying weapons. They can enforce the law as written.

A quote attributed to English author and magistrate Henry Fielding comes immediately to mind;

The Law is an Ass.

Realistically, is subject to interpretation as well as prosecutorial discretion. Even with me currently living in a US state ,with "Stand your ground," AND "constitutional carry" laws in place whilst also holding valid CWP and/or carry permits for multiple states (currently valid for 37 states), I would expect to be at the very least detained if I fired upon someone in my own home. Depending on the circumstances, there would also be a significant likelihood of being both arrested and the firearm(s) getting confiscated and forfeited. It is one of those areas of law where only black and shades of grey exist.

Side note: where I live, open or concealed carry of blades (fixed, folding, does not matter) including knives, dirks and razors is perfectly legal as long as they are noted used to commit a crime. Yes, this includes convicted felons and AFAIK those who have been adjudicated mentally defective. The exception to the law is that unless one is a first responder, one cannot have or carry a blade onto school grounds. Those who do possess a state CWP can keep one secured in their vehicle whilst on school grounds, just like they could with any other weapon.

 

[Feanor]

A quote attributed to English author and magistrate Henry Fielding comes immediately to mind;

I prefer Ambrose Bierce. Litigation - a machine into which you go as a pig and come out as a sausage.

Realistically, is subject to interpretation as well as prosecutorial discretion. Even with me currently living in a US state ,with "Stand your ground," AND "constitutional carry" laws in place whilst also holding valid CWP and/or carry permits for multiple states (currently valid for 37 states), I would expect to be at the very least detained if I fired upon someone in my own home. Depending on the circumstances, there would also be a significant likelihood of being both arrested and the firearm(s) getting confiscated and forfeited. It is one of those areas of law where only black and shades of grey exist.

Side note: where I live, open or concealed carry of blades (fixed, folding, does not matter) including knives, dirks and razors is perfectly legal as long as they are noted used to commit a crime. Yes, this includes convicted felons and AFAIK those who have been adjudicated mentally defective. The exception to the law is that unless one is a first responder, one cannot have or carry a blade onto school grounds. Those who do possess a state CWP can keep one secured in their vehicle whilst on school grounds, just like they could with any other weapon.

Sure, but it's far more reasonable then what's described in this thread. And I think there's nothing wrong with being detained for investigative purposes following a shooting. I don't think any of us live in the wild west so obviously there would be someone looking pretty closely into such an incident.

EDIT: On a side note, Tom Jones is the only Henry Fielding I've read, and I found it tiresome.

 

[Todjaeger]

Sure, but it's far more reasonable then what's described in this thread. And I think there's nothing wrong with being detained for investigative purposes following a shooting. I don't think any of us live in the wild west so obviously there would be someone looking pretty closely into such an incident.

Not sure describing it as "more reasonable," is all that accurate TBH. Leaving that much room for discretion on the part of LEO's and prosecutors or solicitors can also cut the other way too, in that someone did commit violence can be effectively given a pass. Either by refusing to take action, or else slow walking efforts. I will not travel to Kenosha WI for this reason among others, as I do not trust the law enforcement and prosecutors offices (state and Federal) to fairly and impartially uphold the laws.

EDIT: On a side note, Tom Jones is the only Henry Fielding I've read, and I found it tiresome.

If the text is not for you, perhaps try watching this Tom Jones mini-series adaptation. Interesting historical footnote, he and his younger half-brother (also a magistrate) helped found the Bow Street Runners, a precursor to London's modern Metropolitan Police Service.