Capabilities and data Comparision of AAM's

ajay_ijn

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
Last breath of your Argument!! Catch the Guy on his spelling, Grow up Abit before Posting comments that don't make sense I can call that AC a Mango for all I care.
Now who will know which aircraft is Mango!!!

The Rafael u wrote has devloped the python-4/5 so who in the world will think that u wrote French Rafale.

The Discussion was Closer to Israeli Rafael not French Rafale becoz its the Rafael that developed Python.
Suddenly French Rafale pops up in the discussion and How do u think anybody can understand when u spell it incorrectly.

a matter of speaking i can call its Rafael Rafeal
Thats really meaningless.
U must have the the atleast sense to Spell correctly to avoid confusion
U can call whatever u want and how do u think we will understand.

The thing is if the discussion is related to something then even if u Spell Incorrectly then Members will understand.
But if u spell Incorrectly which is not related to discussion then how do u think people will understand.
 

Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
As much drag as the R-73 presents with the AOA 'whiskers' and the tandem strake/canard quads PLUS the taileron fins AND the TVC petals, I find it utterly inbelievable that the weapon is capable of 40km ranges. However; the '12G' statement is inaccurate as the Archer is very much a 50-55G weapon. Which makes it capable (Heart Of The Envelope) of /running down/ a 12G maneuvering target.

Which is typical for the '5:1' advantaged maneuvering ratio on a supersonic missile vs. subsonic maneuvering target.

Not least because the Russians maintain both SARH an IRH Alamo short burn weapons to cover that same engagement zone with a 230mm motor class.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/aa-10-DDST8809324_JPG.jpg

I also frankly have a hard time believing that the weapons /system/ is capable of exploiting a 40km kinematic with the original Su-27 IRST was rated to only 30km in the front quarter and 60km on RQ/burner targets. The R-73 (and K-74/R-73M2) don't even have the simplistic radio link that the R-27s do and furthermore, why put more sensitivity into a 'throwaway' seeker when you cannot even get _imaging_ (dual TV/IRST) up in the cockpit to make an ID with?

No. Pure exaggeration to make the 'one gun principle' (the only missile the Russians were 'famous' for, in the 80's and 90's) seem like more than what it was.

Keep in mind folks that on the R-73M2, the extended range (15-20km) is bought and paid for by _locking out_ the TVC. So that you don't waste energy in making launch excursions that lower the weapons overall initial impulse efficiency (though mechanical TVC always has a negative effect on plenum pressure recovery).

That means that the 20-40lbs of actuators and heavy weight vectoring ramps on the back of the missile is WASTED for 90+% of the 'NBVR' shots you are taking.

And why indeed make such a performance capability seem so critical?

Because you are facing 40-60km AIM-120 and 60-100km AA-12 and BVRAAM respectively.

Now ASRAAM is a pretty slick weapon. It gets you absolute minimum drag on the front end and puts powerful, compact, actuators in the rear of what is almost certainly a dynamically unstable missile so that ALL of the aft through midsection is motor. And there are no canard drivers to effect not only drag but also internal warhead and GCS packaging, 'up front'. The latter is particularly important because, if the weapon is truly pushing Mach 4 as many claim, it will need a HUGE cooling capability to keep the blackbody spots from 'clouding' the seeker noise threshold completely.

OTOH, the ASRAAM has a major penalty for it's '20:20' (20km seeker, 20km kinematic) capability too. In that, at the very far end of the trajectory, any endgame play is going to be at a large penalty in aerodynamics as you have nothing to stabilize and direct the shocks coming back over the forebody. This latter being why the AIM-9X went with a BOA style forebody instead of the 'nekkid' Box Office testbed design. What this means is that there will be both absolute authority and authority-at-stabilization penalties for the small tail controls in making the cutoff turn on an agile target. Like a Cheetah coming around the corner described by a Gazelle fawn, if the nominally slower victim times a cutback (orthagonal roll with altitude loss most likely) while the cat has 'all for feet off the ground', the bigger animal may not be able to reverse in time.

Which brings us to the Python and 'engagement geometry' for a close in fight. This is utterly ridiculous. First because it's a 2D drawing and the first thing I'm going to do if somebody fires an across-circle shot at me is _move out of plane_ to defeat the seeker expecation zone (a predictive search volume essentially) while maximizing my own jets G potential with the freebie vertical.

Again, the P4 is 1990s technology while the P5 is the one with the improved autopilot AND datalink (in the same overall missile configuration). Which brings us right back to the notion that playing pitbull-goes-maddog with a weapon that can supposedly miss it's target by several thousand feet, execute a 180` reversal and 'make another pass' is just _stupid_. When EVERY MODIFICATION OUT THERE is 'AIMed' towards increasing the farend of the envelope performance rather than the near.

At which point I would like to make two defining statements as regards the 'value' of WVR:

1. Pyrrhic Victories Are Worth LESS Than Neutral Extension/Survivals.

One F-15C, in 1991, ran for something like /35 miles/ before somebody could shoot a Fulcrum off his tail because he had the gas but not the pol metrics to defeat a potential Archer shot on the pitchback.

At the same time, the only jets in DS with operational tactical (intraflight) LINK were a few F-14s with AWS-27C. Now EVERYBODY has it and it can actually go all the way back to the AWACS. So picture data makes the likelihood of 'surprise' tap at close range very low. Especially with most fighters looking to maximize pol differentials by climbing up to 30K. No 'snap up' performance in the world can make the grade on that with an SRM weapon. While the lack of serious VLO investment to defeat the AWACS as much as the Fighter nose means that ONLY AND IDIOT plays with an enemy at close range.

When he can long spear him and then run away.

Remember, the fighter lead sweeps are there for one reason: To keep the strike packages from taking mission kills as the enemy breaks them up and forces stores jettison and/or missed BOTOTs. As such, they MUST have the engagement flexibility, in both time and space, to deal with the enemy 'as they come'. Which in turn means that the PDI/GAI units will themselves only have X-window to get aloft and starting ramping up and forward-faster before they become effectively wheel-in-well kills. LONG before the strikers are on the scope. This is the lesson of 1991 when Iraqi defenders had to flee their own MOB in order to get 'out from under' a Tomcat broom team (AWG swoosh-swoosh hear us comin'). And could not 'work their way around' the fighters which were then on the FAR side of the baselane, chasing them. As H3 was plastered.

SRM's do nothing whatsoever to advantage a DCA team in such a scenario because the quick-draw option against the overrun threat simply never happens because the COST differential the OCA platform they put at risk comes down to a 117 million dollar F/A-22 for a 20million dollar MiG-21 Bison in-trade. And we can shoot you from the NEAR side of the baselane defense using extended motor AMRAAMs without even having to overfly or approach the runways.

2. Differentials In Pole match Statistical Levels of Engagement Size.

Such that, not only are you looking at upwards of 30-50km worth of 'first I throw two pilum, then I lockstep-march to gladius stabbing distance'. But you are also facing 2-4 jets per engagement rather than the 20-50 that we feared would saturate the radar defenses of the NATO era. Part of this is distance from base expectations on offensive engagement (fewer jets per attack means more attacks with a give force size but also more stress on the initial raids in terms of numeric disparities). Part is simple cost of the airframes.

But most of it is, again, the simple assurance that with FOUR shots supportable by a decent sized (100km TWS as a baseline for the 1m class apetures of the F-15 and Su-30), it is BETTER to have two jets up front run a chainsaw and peelback attack. While 2 more behind act as the cleanup crew on whatever is left.

Since the overall size of the engaged forces has gone DOWN, there is no point in risking closure to the secondary pole, even if you are out of rounds (and most of the heavy jets will have at least 2 more BVR class weapons in reserve).

Such a replacement for the 'Wall of Eagles' stylistic (brooming-of-airspace with STT-as-SARH driven shot counts as a formation multipler) with more ingenious, layered and offset tactics will only become MORE effective when supercruise becomes standardized as the 'bar' definition of A2A combat capability. And jets begin providing guidance for forward-section fired weapons from aft section MCG tracking platforms. i.e. We will no longe fight at 'unified' division levels but rather Wildly Detached Support element separated ones.

Which is where stealth will show it's true advantage because no Jammer support airframe will be able to create a wide enough corridor to support conventional jets 'free range' (small-pack) hunting tactics. And no Area SAM like the S-300/400 will be able to prevent the RADARS of the stealth flight leads from 'picking away at the edges' of MEZ threat bubbles on whatever secured-baselane a Flanker or Canard Clone optimized force thinks to 'safely exit from'.

Such is what the true, 2-way, LINK capabilities of MICA, BVRAAM and AIM-120C7/D will make possible on a daily basis and with them, there is no reason not to expect 100km separations between the jets you 'hear' (illuminating you) and the jets you /watch/ running away from an unknown (pole overlap) firing distance. While you yourself are another 50-100km short of NEZ on either.

It is also why only fools continue to invest in high leverage systems like the Sukhoi without any real option for integrating Stealth. Because the only thing you can reasonably do is make a fighting retreat away from the MOBs or a banzai charge forward from dispersal basing. Using LRAAM to try and take out the C4ISTAR systems which are what is effectively guiding the Stealth Platforms in.

In such a scenario, the SRM is reduced to little more than a bootknife backup for very oddball one-off _mistaken_ encounters. Or as terminal goalkeeper aids to kill terminal MRM/LRM which are not responding to decoy or crosseye type techniques. And believe you me, I would rather have a Sorbitsaya or DASS-Towed Decoy combination hanging off my jet than another Archer or an ASRAAM for that matter.





KP
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The confusion may be for those who don't know the difference.

rafael makes weapons systems
rafale is an aircraft

one is israeli, one is french
 

adsH

New Member
adsH said:
the Rafael uses the AIM-132 as the primary AAM too.
If we look at this Sentence, An extraction of what I said that stirred the controversy where people had there Minds popping out and Stressing to work out what it meant.
Here I assumed we were Talking about Air forces who utilize the AAM, Obviously Rafael the Firm that makes missiles would not use an AAM (AIM-132) as its primary weapon it doesn’t Fly in the Air, now would it! Here it's abit Obvious that i'm trying to Indicate the AAM is the Primary weapons Integrated on the Rafael the Jet, It doesn't matter how the Israelis put the Name in Hebrew or the French in French, its all the same, it represents the same name. Logic is a Hard thing Some are gifted with it and some just have to work hard.
Oh and just so that we're clear I still don't care how I spell the Damn Name, it all reads the Same, when using a mind.
Alexander the great in INdia is Known as Sikander and i'm sure Most here would have a fit understanding that!!!
 
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Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
>>
...Integrated on the Rafael the Jet, It doesn't matter how the Israelis put the Name in Hebrew or the French in French, its all the same, it represents the same name. Logic is a Hard thing Some are gifted with it and some just have to work hard.
>>

NO.

Gettting names right is a sign of respect via cognizance of origin of identity as expressed by differentiation of meaning.

In Hebrew Rafael means 'One Healed By God'. Nothing else.

In French Rafale means 'Flurry' and is _highly_ context sensitive to the extent that it can mean a blast or gust of wind (Rafale du Vent). A rapid or 'drumfire' repetition of sound or action and even some specific types of storm like a small squall or gale.

Neither are like unto the other or themselves as the Semitic Language Group is not like unto the Latin mixed Gallic tongues which parented modern day French.

>>
Alexander the great in India is Known as Sikander and I'm sure Most here would have a fit understanding that!!!
>>

Yes, and in Bombay one bows to the local custom. However; _to the world_ Alek-SAHN-dur is Alexander. Or Alexandros by the modern Greek pronunciation of a people who can still rightly claim to 'own the heritage' of the man.

Not Sikander. Alastair, Saskia, Aleczander, Sasha or Olek as it has been bastardized and diminuitivized by many other languages to ease the ordering of consonants and phonetic tempo within speech.

While I further doubt if 'Defender Of Men', which is the literal translation of the old Greek (in reference to Hera, the Mother God), is at all the way a period Hindi would look upon the man. He certainly wasn't defending India when he fell there.

Respect for 'who' must come with acknowledgment of WHAT (from where, representing what expressed belief) the person or symbol is.

And as Alexander is not and never will be Indian, so too have the French not been close to the Israelis 'that way' (military liason and technical export policies) since the whole Mirage V/Nesher blowup back in the 60s.

IN THIS SETTING.

Rafale is a Jet.

Raphael is an Arms Manufacturer.

They deserve to be distinct.


KP
 
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adsH

New Member
Ofcourse they deserve to be distinct, But i still choose to not Spell certain things. Get over it!. Damn you went through all that trouble to prove me Wrong on the Rafael Fiasco. But i'm quiet rite on one thing they both sound similar (regardless of the Meaning). So i can spell it the way it suites me. Whip my descendants for it if you will. I really don't give a toss!!. And Sikander will never be Indian But we chose to place him in our History as a sign of respect and give hope to teh People of Isdia when there wasn't any. Ofcourse He wasn't defending INdia. But he showed his Merciful side (questionable) by Leaving us Alone!!!....
 

adsH

New Member
Kurt !
"Raphael" The Arch Angle in Judaism and christianity. the four to be exact are:- Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Urie. Tell me when you Pronounce the Names verbally of the "One healed by God=Rafael" do you differentiate between them Isn't that A sign of disrespect if you Logically apply what you have stated. Couldn't you as easily Mix there names up with the Italian Painter RaPhael. Its a thin line Everyone croses it. And since we all Seem to have sprung-up from Organized Forms of religion, the basis or our civilizations. i see the Source of the Name Rafael or raphael From the Torah.
 
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Red aRRow

Forum Bouncer
Ok this is getting wayyy off topic and out of hand. There was a spelling mistake so get over it before i start nuking replies.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30
Back to the topic,
I heard All F-14's are to be gradually retired and replaced by F-18E/F or JSF then who will take over the thr role of Air Defence of the Carrier.
Phoenix Long Range AAM can be only carried by F-14.
If F-14 is retired then what about Aim-54 Phoenix and Carrier Air-defence
USN is not having any project of Long Range AAM's.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
ajay_ijn said:
Back to the topic,
I heard All F-14's are to be gradually retired and replaced by F-18E/F or JSF then who will take over the thr role of Air Defence of the Carrier.
Phoenix Long Range AAM can be only carried by F-14.
If F-14 is retired then what about Aim-54 Phoenix and Carrier Air-defence
USN is not having any project of Long Range AAM's.
The Phoenix has been retired. AFAIK the last of the carrier borne F-14's was retired in November last year. The Super Hornet takes up it's role until the JSF comes on line. and that means that there will still be super hornets on deck anyway as they will probably pick up different but complimentary roles.

Phoenix was a long range bomber killer designed for the Bears and Badgers. A replacement per se is not necessary as the threat matrix no longer exists.

The combination of AWAC's, on board radar (AESA), stealth and more effective medium range missiles makes the need more or less redundant.

AESA will pick up missiles being launched anyway, so the need is to get in close so as to reduce reaction time. A long range missile is equivalent to holding up a flag to tell everyone that you are coming.
 
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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The AIM-120C-7 model AMRAAM is due to be released in the 2006/7 timeframe. This version of the AMRAAM will boast an extended range in the 80-90 kilometre field, which will somewhat make up for the absence of the Phoenix...
 

Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
ajay_ijn said:
Back to the topic,

I heard All F-14's are to be gradually retired and replaced by F-18E/F or JSF then who will take over the thr role of Air Defence of the Carrier.

Phoenix Long Range AAM can be only carried by F-14.

If F-14 is retired then what about Aim-54 Phoenix and Carrier Air-defence

USN is not having any project of Long Range AAM's.
My understanding is this-

1. AIM-120C6 (P3I Phase II)

Is a USAF model intended for compatibility with high supersonic FQ launches to defeat current generation MICA and Adder equipped foes whom we can no longer use geometry check (quartering/flanking and stern conversion) to 'out finagle' based on radar first-sight/EA advantages and so MUST defeat, nose on. It also features improved snap down attack capabilities on small/maneuvering targets in the front quarter. It is the first model to activate the 'look thru' (wide bandwidth) capabilities of the processor in looking for both the radar altimeter 'ping' of cruise weapons and perhaps even initiate a cued secondary shadow returns lockon off the terrain scape (effectively a lowered clutter threshold window around the target gate).

C-6 is also equipped with a coneal warhead (like the SA-2s) designed to scatter an advanced (probably directional) spray of fragments over the target flightpath rather than acting purely as a 'proximity' device against agile/small signature threats.

2. AIM-120C7 (P3I Phase III)

Has an advanced autopilot kinematic measuring and 2-way datalink capability within an overall compressed GCS volume. This leaves room for a 7" 'spacer' in front of the existing motor. As such it is designed to improve steer-to-seeker-volume rather than simply baseline tracking to a (prelauncg predictive) envelope intercept point with the 1-way MCG tether update. Such allows you a more dynamic compromise and understanding of flyout times and thus a more reliable ability to deal with threats that 'take the turn signal' and begin screwing with the FPol baselines.

3. AIM-120C-8 (P3I Phase IV)

Now known as the 'D', this weapon is probably equivalent to the 'ERAAM' (not to be confused with SM-6 ERAM) which Raytheon offered as an 80% solution to the BAe Meteor and their own FMRAAM for the British BVRAAM effort to equip their Eurofighter with a decent long lance that compensated for the Typhoons more or less conventional FQ signature.

Though there are other improvements such as full integration with a GPS/INS IMU and yet more ECCM hardening; the 'big question' is whether or not the 120D will in fact BE simply the filling of the 7" void with more conventional propellant. Replacing of that propellant with a multipulse 'gel' system that takes the round up to say Mach 2.8-3.2 and then blips it down range (kick the can style) on a constant throttle up basis of reenergization. Or if the recent award of a VFDR (Variable Flow Ducted Rocket) contract to Aerojet implies the use of a 'ramjet' propulsion scheme.

One of the articles on the ERAAM mentions '80% of the range at 50% of the cost -and- leads directly to FMRAAM, when necessary...'. Since VFDR works on a solid, oxy-weak propellant grain, this tends to make me think that the 7" spacer is simply a forward plenum option which is filled (for a total of C5+C8=12" motor length increase over baseline AMRAAM.) with conventional bipeak propellant for a boost-slide-boost intercept (reenergizing the weapon only at the terminal endgame rather than repeatedly on the way).

And that the entire backend is pulled and replaced for FMRAAM like performance increases. This makes sense given that the FMRAAM -looks- like a Meteor in the presence of sidemounted ramducts.

I don't truly like ramjet weapons, simply because the engineering for them is complicated by the envelope expectations (low and thick, vs. high and thin as well as yaw and flow effects at high AOA on the long sideducts) and the overall impulse:Mach peak actually tends to be /lower/ than what you can get from a pure rocket and a very high loft. They do however tend to hold a higher average Mach for the midcourse which may be all that you really need in a true 100km ranged weapon (I've seen reports of as high as 180-200km for Meteor).

As such, this is the Jabberwock killing vorpal blade by which the F-teens will pretend to stay current should we continue to see the all-Stealth inventory option denigrated to nothing and indeed, if the larger ventral ducts of a FMRAAM type weapon should impose a serious carriage box (volumetric) change, it may well be that the missile is not as 'compatible' (back to four shots on the F/A-22 for instance) with internal carriage jets.

As far as the AIM-54 goes, there are three things to consider.

1. It ain't called the Buffalo fer nuthin'.

In the famous 74nm intercept, the Phoenix was in-air for almost 173 seconds. That averages out to about Mach 2.8 /even with/ the long-high loft. Which means that at least the A model was probably all-sustain with no kicker of boost phase and it's famous 'Mach 4+' terminal dive is just that, gravity and snapdown. Against a slow, lumbering, bomber; this probably doesn't matter much. Against an agile MiG which can not only 'play up' into the weapons endgame tracking (effectively compressing the intercept curve into negative lead) and which can further more execute a 'hard left/right/retreat!' and simply slip out the sides of a long midcourse window. The Phoenix is not as useful a fighter-killer as has often been assumed. Now the C and C+/++ have new motors and GCS functioning so some of this may have changed. Certainly the rated G has gone up from 16-17 to 22-25.

2. ERAM as ADSAM

The Standard SM-6 with ARH brings you the option to do Air Directed SAM firings 'over the horizon' with either an RQ-4, E-2C or perhaps an Aerostat. The baseline RIM-156/167 IS a killer kinematic performing weapon (easily S-300 equivalent) and furthermore, there are a LOT more of them in a typical VLS. Which means that, if you fling one out to the enemy on a very high parabola, you can probably hit the shooter at 300-500km. And if you wait until you can -see- that Brahmos coming in at say 30-60km, you can still lane-saturate the inbound with perhaps 30-50 shots in what would be considered the outer/mid air battle zone around the fleet. Especially given as ESSM is still basically SARH, there is no excuse NOT to upgrade the 'Theater Wide' S2A abilities of the grey navy before worrying about the flyboys. Because effectively the SM-3 is _dead_ as an upper tier weapon. Yet it is not airframes killing airframes in the hi-blue-yonder which will ultimately make conventional airpower obsolescent. Rather it is the use of very high speed, very accurate, TBMs. And only the USN stands a hope in hell of putting a midcourse intercept option on 2-4km/sec weapons (current treaty limit I believe) into play _in front of_ Taipei. Indeed, if there is a future in attacking aerial targets with heavy, expensive, AAM such that you NEED to play 'Talos on the Fresco' 70+nm kills from offshore; it is likely going to be as a function of protecting (highly visible, highly vulnerable, /incredibly/ predictable) BMC3 and C4ISTAR assets like the E-10 and Global Hawk and even the Predator-A/B. For those are the eyes by which we target in realtime. And those are thus the target value rich objects worth trading an Su-30 for.

3. Sight Dominates Fight. But Mission is the point of Platform Valued Frision.

If you can't see the enemy, you can't kill him and this more or less puts the kaibosh on fighter-vs.-fighter killing over 100km until and unless we move to SATWACS (DSP-III as Teal Ruby etc.) and/or PCLS or someother longwave/shadow tracking/acousto-optic network tracking option. However; the REAL measure of risk is not simply that of how close you come to your enemy to engage him (if he's not a threat, let him burn MTBF airframe hours for all I care, playing run-fer-d'border Iran/Iraq games is asking to get whacked by a SAM trap) proactively. Rather it is how much your mission drives both your performance options and your target commitment predictability for a given ordnance load. Basically, if you lead with your testicles against a _predictable_ target point, you are gonna get neutered, sooner or later.

BUT. If you return to a deliberate mission-split in an ultra-cheap, renta-pylon, attack platform (pilotless A-4) and a high-end 'support from the rear' multimission enabler (F/A-18F with ASARM and AIM-120D); you can ALSO force the /enemy/ to make some hard choices. Namely, as to whether he is gonna let these lemming-bombers run in to the 10-25nm it takes to hit their JDAM or SDB release thresholds. While he goes out 'in pursuit of the Questing Beast' as a function of white-silk-scarfism.

Or if he is going to try and hunt these small, slow, cold, signature cruise-missile-with-landing-gear jets based on IRST and The Force. While the jets behind sling 100km shots up his nethers.

Being a trick question, the answer is of course neither is going to work.

For indeed, _WHO CARES_ if R2D2 catches a guided arrow, either from an enemy or a long-range-sniping friend? And thus the bomber, lacking a man in the cockpit, 'enables' the fighter to do it's job. In relative safety from a long ways out on the S-300/400 slant. And it also allows me to abbrogate the first-order attack doctrine of suppressing an (invisible ARH shooting) IADS before beginning attacks on infrastructure and basing modes etc. Which means that if the U.S. has to come a long ways or start with a small force 'ramping up' as a function of GSCONOPS, there is less lag and uncertainty building up a target folder.



KP



LINKS-

AIM-120D Capabilities

http://www.airplanes.com/forums/printthread.php3?threadid=1387

GDR-99 Articles

http://www.global-defence.com/1999/missiles/missile9.htm

http://www.global-defence.com/1999/missiles/missile8.htm

BVRAAM

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/bvraam.htm

AMRAAM General History

http://www.amiinter.com/Missiles_online.html

Aerojet VFDR Contract

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cg...0.1085951851.QLpPa8Oa9dUAAB-KXZQ&modele=jdc_1

 
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